If you could wave a magic wand and remove one of these at the cost of letting the other two continue unabated, which would you choose to remove?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Sexism is natural. Men and women and are different and it's unreasonable to expect rational people to ignore that.

No, it is not.

[DavenRoxy 1,073]

Pretty much. I be calling out stuff like, that's the wrong rank and procedure! You don't salute with your left hand! How is this dude in command and he has on E4 rank?

Cmon man you know the E-4 mafia rules the military!!

[SMR 368]

No, it is not.

So you think that a reasonable person should react to a man and a woman in exactly the same way in all circumstances? Or is it only sexism when you don't like it?

Define sexism in concrete, objective, and repeatable terms.

Edited January 29, 2014 by SMR

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So you think that a reasonable person should react to a man and a woman in exactly the same way in all circumstances? Or is it only sexism when you don't like it?

Define sexism in concrete, objective, and repeatable terms.

Firstly, did you read the OP? If not you may want to have a gander.

Secondly, when your arguments amount to two vague statements full of ambiguous terminology, why is the onus on me to flesh out your argument?

You said, sexism is natural. I said it was not. Prove me wrong.

[Teddy B 17,251]

Sexism, just like racism, is a taught behavior.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Sexism, just like racism, is a taught behavior.

Yep. It's a social construct. There is nothing 'natural' about it.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Sexism, just like racism, is a taught behavior.

You are pussywhipped, aren't you?

Yep. It's a social construct. There is nothing 'natural' about it.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Did you just have a stroke or something?

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Until men starting getting pregnant...

[GandD 5,966]

Yeah she is.

[Teddy B 17,251]

You are pussywhipped, aren't you?

+100

[SMR 368]

Firstly, did you read the OP? If not you may want to have a gander.

Secondly, when your arguments amount to two vague statements full of ambiguous terminology, why is the onus on me to flesh out your argument?

You said, sexism is natural. I said it was not. Prove me wrong.

Yes, I did read the OP. I actually responded to it by pointing out that the question poised was ambiguous.

To flesh out my argument: There are obvious physical differences between the sexes. I could go into detail about the definite physical differences, the probable physical differences, and the probable emotional and psychological differences, but it doesn't really merit the effort. Any difference is sufficient and the most obvious and irrefutable difference is that women can get pregnant and have children, while men can't. On it's own, that is sufficient to justify sexism. Sex frames all of our interactions with other people, as well it should.

This is true of all animals that I am aware of. Animals react to members of their species differently based on the sex of the other individual. That speaks to the fact that this is natural.

But you know all of this. Any rational adult understands that you treat men and women differently. The real question is when does this difference become discriminatory. The answer is highly subjective. That's why I asked you to define sexism. Yes, I can read the dictionary, but the dictionary definition is actually rather deficient. I'm interested if you could flesh out your understanding of sexism.

Here are some examples of possible sexism and I want to know whether you think these are examples of sexism:

1) A boy is not allowed to participate on a girls' sports team. There was no boys' sports team for that sport.

2) A girl is not allowed to participate on a boys' sports team. There was no girls' sports team for that sport.

3) A boy is not allowed to participate on a girls' sports team. There was a boys' sports team for that sport.

4) A girl is not allowed to participate on a boys' sports team. There was a girls' sports team for that sport.

5) A man is discharged from the military because he cannot meet the physical standards for men. He could meet them for women.

6) A city is attacked. All of the men are required to take up arms to fight off the invaders while the women stay home.

7) A man pays for a date.

8) A man gives up his seat for a woman on the bus.

9) A woman is passed up for promotion/hire because she is pregnant and will be unavailable for some months due to maternity leave.

10) A woman is passed up for promotion/hire because her boss/potential employer knows that she plans to have children in the next couple of years and may not be available.

11) A woman is passed up for promotion/hire because it's possible that she might get pregnant in the future (because uterus and ovaries).

12) A man chooses to only date women.

13) A woman chooses to only date men.

14) A man chooses to only date men.

15) A woman chooses to only date women.

16) A man is arrested in a domestic dispute instead of the woman because he is deemed to be more physically threatening.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Cmon man you know the E-4 mafia rules the military!!

Get with the times son, it's the E-5 rank!

Take a look at the movie Basic with SLJ and John Travolta. I'm pretty sure SLJ is being called a SFC with an E4 insigna on his jacket.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Yes, I did read the OP. I actually responded to it by pointing out that the question poised was ambiguous.

To flesh out my argument: There are obvious physical differences between the sexes. I could go into detail about the definite physical differences, the probable physical differences, and the probable emotional and psychological differences, but it doesn't really merit the effort. Any difference is sufficient and the most obvious and irrefutable difference is that women can get pregnant and have children, while men can't. On it's own, that is sufficient to justify sexism. Sex frames all of our interactions with other people, as well it should.

This is true of all animals that I am aware of. Animals react to members of their species differently based on the sex of the other individual. That speaks to the fact that this is natural.

But you know all of this. Any rational adult understands that you treat men and women differently. The real question is when does this difference become discriminatory. The answer is highly subjective. That's why I asked you to define sexism. Yes, I can read the dictionary, but the dictionary definition is actually rather deficient. I'm interested if you could flesh out your understanding of sexism.

Here are some examples of possible sexism and I want to know whether you think these are examples of sexism:

1) A boy is not allowed to participate on a girls' sports team. There was no boys' sports team for that sport.

2) A girl is not allowed to participate on a boys' sports team. There was no girls' sports team for that sport.

3) A boy is not allowed to participate on a girls' sports team. There was a boys' sports team for that sport.

4) A girl is not allowed to participate on a boys' sports team. There was a girls' sports team for that sport.

5) A man is discharged from the military because he cannot meet the physical standards for men. He could meet them for women.

6) A city is attacked. All of the men are required to take up arms to fight off the invaders while the women stay home.

7) A man pays for a date.

8) A man gives up his seat for a woman on the bus.

9) A woman is passed up for promotion/hire because she is pregnant and will be unavailable for some months due to maternity leave.

10) A woman is passed up for promotion/hire because her boss/potential employer knows that she plans to have children in the next couple of years and may not be available.

11) A woman is passed up for promotion/hire because it's possible that she might get pregnant in the future (because uterus and ovaries).

12) A man chooses to only date women.

13) A woman chooses to only date men.

14) A man chooses to only date men.

15) A woman chooses to only date women.

16) A man is arrested in a domestic dispute instead of the woman because he is deemed to be more physically threatening.

Gender is natural, sex is natural, sexism is not. You seem to believe that gender roles are sacrosanct and that cultural constuctions are part of a natural order. That's problematic for obvious reasons.

When we talk about sexism, we're talking about prejudices arising from traditional gender stereotypes and a certain belief among some people that a person of one sex is superior to another or should conform to some sort of model.

So why is it problematcic? Quite simply it's got more to do with the prejudices of the individual and cultural pressures than anything. In some parts of the world, as I'm sure you know, women are barred from education (or at least after a certain level) because this keeps women in their place (i.e. dependent on men to provide for them). That used to be the case here too, women weren't allowed to vote.

There is no logical or rational (as you like to say) reason for any of this, its about maintaining a patriarchal social order. If there are no reasons that a woman can't achieve the same or more than a man - in business, academia, the sciences, politics, religion (in short all of the areas in which we look to measure personal success) then how do you justify the idea that sexism is natural? Its natural to be prejudiced against women? Is it?

Men and women are treated differently, sure. Exactly how that works is open to question. However most of the example scenarios you offered make the assumption that men and women have the same freedoms. This is not the case, just look at other cultures, take Pakistan for instance. Is their society more 'natural' than ours because many women are 'sold' through arranged marriages and effectively kept as domestic servants?

What exactly are you trying to say?

Edited January 30, 2014 by Papa Lazarou

[Teddy B 17,251]

Yes, I did read the OP. I actually responded to it by pointing out that the question poised was ambiguous.

To flesh out my argument: There are obvious physical differences between the sexes. I could go into detail about the definite physical differences, the probable physical differences, and the probable emotional and psychological differences, but it doesn't really merit the effort. Any difference is sufficient and the most obvious and irrefutable difference is that women can get pregnant and have children, while men can't. On it's own, that is sufficient to justify sexism. Sex frames all of our interactions with other people, as well it should.

This is true of all animals that I am aware of. Animals react to members of their species differently based on the sex of the other individual. That speaks to the fact that this is natural.

But you know all of this. Any rational adult understands that you treat men and women differently. The real question is when does this difference become discriminatory. The answer is highly subjective. That's why I asked you to define sexism. Yes, I can read the dictionary, but the dictionary definition is actually rather deficient. I'm interested if you could flesh out your understanding of sexism.

Here are some examples of possible sexism and I want to know whether you think these are examples of sexism:

1) A boy is not allowed to participate on a girls' sports team. There was no boys' sports team for that sport.

2) A girl is not allowed to participate on a boys' sports team. There was no girls' sports team for that sport.

3) A boy is not allowed to participate on a girls' sports team. There was a boys' sports team for that sport.

4) A girl is not allowed to participate on a boys' sports team. There was a girls' sports team for that sport.

5) A man is discharged from the military because he cannot meet the physical standards for men. He could meet them for women.

6) A city is attacked. All of the men are required to take up arms to fight off the invaders while the women stay home.

7) A man pays for a date.

8) A man gives up his seat for a woman on the bus.

9) A woman is passed up for promotion/hire because she is pregnant and will be unavailable for some months due to maternity leave.

10) A woman is passed up for promotion/hire because her boss/potential employer knows that she plans to have children in the next couple of years and may not be available.

11) A woman is passed up for promotion/hire because it's possible that she might get pregnant in the future (because uterus and ovaries).

12) A man chooses to only date women.

13) A woman chooses to only date men.

14) A man chooses to only date men.

15) A woman chooses to only date women.

16) A man is arrested in a domestic dispute instead of the woman because he is deemed to be more physically threatening.

I don't believe that any of the above are examples of sexism. Some are examples of discrimination, but none are of sexism.

Gender is natural, sex is natural, sexism is not. You seem to believe that gender roles are sacrosanct and that cultural constuctions are part of a natural order. That's problematic for obvious reasons.

When we talk about sexism, we're talking about prejudices arising from traditional gender stereotypes and a certain belief among some people that a person of one sex is superior to another or should conform to some sort of model.

So why is it problematcic? Quite simply it's got more to do with the prejudices of the individual and cultural pressures than anything. In some parts of the world, as I'm sure you know, women are barred from education (or at least after a certain level) because this keeps women in their place (i.e. dependent on men to provide for them). That used to be the case here too, women weren't allowed to vote.

There is no logical or rational (as you like to say) reason for any of this, its about maintaining a patriarchal social order. If there are no reasons that a woman can't achieve the same or more than a man - in business, academia, the sciences, politics, religion (in short all of the areas in which we look to measure personal success) then how do you justify the idea that sexism is natural? Its natural to be prejudiced against women? Is it?

Men and women are treated differently, sure. Exactly how that works is open to question. However most of the example scenarios you offered make the assumption that men and women have the same freedoms. This is not the case, just look at other cultures, take Pakistan for instance. Is their society more 'natural' than ours because many women are 'sold' through arranged marriages and effectively kept as domestic servants?

What exactly are you trying to say?

Bingo!