Legal Gun Owners Can Deter Crime, Says Detroit Police Chief

[Danno 1,228]

Ask what you like, that isnt the point. More people have died at the barrel of a gun in the US, you can spin it however you want, although I very much doubt the US has fewer gun related murders.

I don't have any need for bumper stickers. I live in a safe town, have never been a victim of violence - gun related or otherwise. It's only in the US that people seem to see carrying a gun as being somehow essential to daily life. Its perverse.

Your gun culture kills thousands year on year.

Well there ya go boys and girls.

I take his point past first base and his wheels fell off.

Listen Papa, a wise man once said-

There are no solutions, only trade offs.

And in this case what you end up with might be worse than it was when you started.

We have had decades of Gun Control efforts, we now have killing zones in very limited areas, those with the most gun control.

Guns are a American reality (like it or not).

No matter what you do that reality never goes away.

Just so I am not misunderstood, gun control is coming in a big way.... but like most liberal solutions, the cure will be worse than the illness.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Those 12,000 deaths are a reality too and I don't see you wringing your hands about them.

Its insane.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

What about Brazil, 15 million legal guns, over 35,000 gun deaths? The US has 20x the guns, and about 35% more people.

[Sousuke 1,214]

What about Brazil, 15 million legal guns, over 35,000 gun deaths? The US has 20x the guns, and about 35% more people.

Seriously, America has less lethal guns.

I don't know, in these debates I don't really put a lot of stock in statistics because they are fairly easy to manipulate for what is a very complex issue.

For instance, the UK has a higher overall mortality rate than the US. Now I could say, that clearly shows that the US is safer than the UK…but its not necessarily true. I suspect demographic-wise the UK has an older population which means that at least temporarily it creates a higher mortality rate.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

There's more crime in Brazil.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Seriously, America has less lethal guns.

I don't know, in these debates I don't really put a lot of stock in statistics because they are fairly easy to manipulate for what is a very complex issue.

For instance, the UK has a higher overall mortality rate than the US. Now I could say, that clearly shows that the US is safer than the UKbut its not necessarily true. I suspect demographic-wise the UK has an older population which means that at least temporarily it creates a higher mortality rate.

I'd imagine that you have more gun deaths in the us in a one year period than in pretty much any Western European nation.

The idea I'm trying to get across is this fixation people have with firearms isn't a healthy one.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

There's more crime in Brazil.

Very true. Less guns, more crime, most murders by guns and a very low suicide rate.

[Sousuke 1,214]

I'd imagine that you have more gun deaths in the us in a one year period than in pretty much any Western European nation.

The idea I'm trying to get across is this fixation people have with firearms isn't a healthy one.

I'm sure you are right. I'm also aware that many deaths in Western European nations just get tallied into another category other than firearms because they are less available. Clearly suicide methods would be the primary candidate. I believe something like half of US firearm deaths are from suicide. In the UK, there isn't as much access unless you are a landowner so other methods are preferred.

Likewise, criminal contact with police is much more likely to create firearm deaths in the US. In the UK, only a small percentage of criminals and police have firearms which equates to less death. I'm not trying to claim that criminal deaths are somehow less important than regular population deaths but if you could separate out just these two categories for your average law abiding citizen, the US gun death rate is quite a bit lower.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

Seriously, America has less lethal guns.

I don't know, in these debates I don't really put a lot of stock in statistics because they are fairly easy to manipulate for what is a very complex issue.

For instance, the UK has a higher overall mortality rate than the US. Now I could say, that clearly shows that the US is safer than the UK…but its not necessarily true. I suspect demographic-wise the UK has an older population which means that at least temporarily it creates a higher mortality rate.

Uhhhh Do what

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

When seconds count, police are only minutes away.

[Sousuke 1,214]

Uhhhh Do what

I was joking, but it goes back to something I mentioned earlier in the thread - a firearm in uk is twice as likely to kill someone than a firearm in the us.

[lostinblue 1,989]

More on this story from the Detroit News troit Police Chief James Craig (Charles V. Tines / The Detroit News, file)

Detroit— If more citizens were armed, criminals would think twice about attacking them, Detroit Police Chief James Craig said Thursday.

Urban police chiefs are typically in favor of gun control or reluctant to discuss the issue, but Craig on Thursday was candid about how he’s changed his mind.

“When we look at the good community members who have concealed weapons permits, the likelihood they’ll shoot is based on a lack of confidence in this Police Department,” Craig said at a press conference at police headquarters, adding that he thinks more Detroit citizens feel safer, thanks in part to a 7 percent drop in violent crime in 2013.

Craig said he started believing that legal gun owners can deter crime when he became police chief in Portland, Maine, in 2009.

“Coming from California (Craig was on the Los Angeles police force for 28 years), where it takes an act of Congress to get a concealed weapon permit, I got to Maine, where they give out lots of CCWs (carrying concealed weapon permits), and I had a stack of CCW permits I was denying; that was my orientation.

“I changed my orientation real quick. Maine is one of the safest places in America. Clearly, suspects knew that good Americans were armed.”

Craig’s statements Thursday echoed those he made Dec. 19 on “The Paul W. Smith Show” on WJR (760 AM), when he said: “There’s a number of CPL (concealed pistol license) holders running around the city of Detroit. I think it acts as a deterrent. Good Americans with CPLs translates into crime reduction. I learned that real quick in the state of Maine.”

Robyn Thomas, director of the the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence in San Francisco, disagreed.

“I think at its core, his position is an emotional one, based on the idea that people feel safer when they have guns. But studies have shown more guns don’t deter crime,” Thomas said. “There’s no research that shows guns make anyone safer, and it does show that, the more guns in any situation, the higher the likelihood of them harming either the owner, or people who have access to them.”

Rick Ector of the Firearm Academy of Detroit, which teaches gun safety classes, said Craig’s comments are unusual for a police official.

“It’s a huge, radical departure for the police chief to say good people should have access to firearms,” said Ector. “I’m not ready to say he’s pro-gun just yet, but it’s vastly different from what police chiefs have said in the past.”

Michigan Association of Chiefs of Police director Robert Stevenson agreed.

“A lot of police officers have no problem at all with law-abiding citizens having guns,” Stevenson said.

“I think it’s probably like the citizenry: Some are for it, some are against it. But most police chiefs don’t want to talk about the subject.

“It’s a divisive issue, and a lot of times chiefs are reluctant to get in the middle of those debates. Gun control, the death penalty — most chiefs try to stay out of those discussions. Craig speaks his mind; you’ve got to give him credit for that.”

According to a March 2013 anonymous poll of 15,000 officers by the law enforcement website policeone.com., almost 90 percent of the respondents believed casualties would be decreased if armed citizens were present during shooting incidents, while more than 80 percent supported arming teachers who were trained with firearms.

Although Craig said more responsible gun owners would likely lower crime, in the past he also has called for a ban on assault weapons, regulating high-capacity magazines, tighter restrictions on Internet ammunition sales and more stringent background checks for merchants who sell firearms at gun shows.

Detroit police have reported 73 justifiable homicides in the city since 2011. The number in 2013 was 15, down from 25 the previous year.

Most of those cases involved citizens who defended themselves by killing criminals. Among them: 77-year-old Willie White, who in March 2012, fatally shot a man who’d broken into his northwest Detroit home.

Prior to the incident, White’s home had been broken into several times. The break-ins stopped after he killed the 18-year-old intruder, he said.

“I think these criminals would definitely think twice if they knew more citizens were armed,” White said. “I know it stopped them from breaking into my place.”

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140103/METRO01/301030038/Detroit-police-chief-Legal-gun-owners-can-deter-crime?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

[Danno 1,228]

More on this story from the Detroit News troit Police Chief James Craig (Charles V. Tines / The Detroit News, file)

Detroit— If more citizens were armed, criminals would think twice about attacking them, Detroit Police Chief James Craig said Thursday.

Urban police chiefs are typically in favor of gun control or reluctant to discuss the issue, but Craig on Thursday was candid about how he’s changed his mind.

“When we look at the good community members who have concealed weapons permits, the likelihood they’ll shoot is based on a lack of confidence in this Police Department,” Craig said at a press conference at police headquarters, adding that he thinks more Detroit citizens feel safer, thanks in part to a 7 percent drop in violent crime in 2013.

Craig said he started believing that legal gun owners can deter crime when he became police chief in Portland, Maine, in 2009.

“Coming from California (Craig was on the Los Angeles police force for 28 years), where it takes an act of Congress to get a concealed weapon permit, I got to Maine, where they give out lots of CCWs (carrying concealed weapon permits), and I had a stack of CCW permits I was denying; that was my orientation.

“I changed my orientation real quick. Maine is one of the safest places in America. Clearly, suspects knew that good Americans were armed.”

Craig’s statements Thursday echoed those he made Dec. 19 on “The Paul W. Smith Show” on WJR (760 AM), when he said: “There’s a number of CPL (concealed pistol license) holders running around the city of Detroit. I think it acts as a deterrent. Good Americans with CPLs translates into crime reduction. I learned that real quick in the state of Maine.”

Robyn Thomas, director of the the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence in San Francisco, disagreed.

“I think at its core, his position is an emotional one, based on the idea that people feel safer when they have guns. But studies have shown more guns don’t deter crime,” Thomas said. “There’s no research that shows guns make anyone safer, and it does show that, the more guns in any situation, the higher the likelihood of them harming either the owner, or people who have access to them.”

Rick Ector of the Firearm Academy of Detroit, which teaches gun safety classes, said Craig’s comments are unusual for a police official.

“It’s a huge, radical departure for the police chief to say good people should have access to firearms,” said Ector. “I’m not ready to say he’s pro-gun just yet, but it’s vastly different from what police chiefs have said in the past.”

Michigan Association of Chiefs of Police director Robert Stevenson agreed.

“A lot of police officers have no problem at all with law-abiding citizens having guns,” Stevenson said.

“I think it’s probably like the citizenry: Some are for it, some are against it. But most police chiefs don’t want to talk about the subject.

“It’s a divisive issue, and a lot of times chiefs are reluctant to get in the middle of those debates. Gun control, the death penalty — most chiefs try to stay out of those discussions. Craig speaks his mind; you’ve got to give him credit for that.”

According to a March 2013 anonymous poll of 15,000 officers by the law enforcement website policeone.com., almost 90 percent of the respondents believed casualties would be decreased if armed citizens were present during shooting incidents, while more than 80 percent supported arming teachers who were trained with firearms.

Although Craig said more responsible gun owners would likely lower crime, in the past he also has called for a ban on assault weapons, regulating high-capacity magazines, tighter restrictions on Internet ammunition sales and more stringent background checks for merchants who sell firearms at gun shows.

Detroit police have reported 73 justifiable homicides in the city since 2011. The number in 2013 was 15, down from 25 the previous year.

Most of those cases involved citizens who defended themselves by killing criminals. Among them: 77-year-old Willie White, who in March 2012, fatally shot a man who’d broken into his northwest Detroit home.

Prior to the incident, White’s home had been broken into several times. The break-ins stopped after he killed the 18-year-old intruder, he said.

“I think these criminals would definitely think twice if they knew more citizens were armed,” White said. “I know it stopped them from breaking into my place.”

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140103/METRO01/301030038/Detroit-police-chief-Legal-gun-owners-can-deter-crime?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

It would seem the top=Cop having a "diversity" of law enforcement experience, has now been exposed to new ideas he other wise might not have had.

Apparently his time spent in a place where both permits are plentiful and crimes are few has had an impression.

"This" is the kind of diversity which makes us a better place.

[lostinblue 1,989]

http://outfront.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/03/detroit-police-chief-arming-residents-will-act-as-a-deterrent/

More on this subject about the advantage of a concealed pistol license in the general population.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The best way of reducing crime in Detroit surely is to make sure that there's jobs and investment. Telling people to carry guns to deter criminals is surely a step above outright lawlessness.