Consulates Returning Petitions to the United States via 221g

[scy 0]

I just want to add that consular officers are not necessarily the most versed in immigration laws. For the majority of them, the assignment in a consular section is a one year assignment they all go through in their careers as foreign service officers. Most of them end up doing something else, not consular related. And most of them hate consular work since it is mostly beauraucratic paperwork. In other words, they rather be done with the assignment as soon as possible and be off on their careers.

So the system that you have is a bunch of junior officers in their one year consular assignments being supervised by senior officers who are in perpetual training mode for these junior officers. You rarely find senior seasoned officers doing the grunt work in consular processing.

Consular officers are humans and they make mistakes and are sometimes overzealous in their applications of the law and are not necessarily very well versed in the law either.

[morocco4ever 63]

Yodrak makes some very valid points here. I do believe that Morocco is a high fraud country. I didn't know this when I met my husband, but I have done my research well and have discovered this. This is why once I realized I was going to have to prove my relationship is real then I really pulled together everything that would prove our case no matter what angle the CO decided to take this. Unfortunately my husband wasn't given the opportunity to show anything other than our pictures. This is why I believe that they had already decided to send it back prior to the interview.

My brother has done some research in the field of approved visas. He has found that there is a large number of visas that are not being issued. One would think that it is because it had been denied, but what he has found is that a large number of applicants drop their case.

So with this knowledge I do believe that these CO's have predetermined which applications they are sending back. You see, they are testing us. They know that in every sense of the word we are eligible, but because of duty to prove fraud they send it back to see if we will drop it rather than stick it out. I do see their reasoning behind this practice, but in order to do this they are not following their own guidelines. They are instructed to give us an opportunity to prove our case at the consular level before sending it back, and that is where they are not following their own guidelines.

If I do receive an NOID then I will have no problem overcoming this because they will allow me to show evidence that has not already been seen by the consulate. This is pretty much everything I have. We didn't have that mean nasty woman, but rather the younger man. He doesn't scrutinize anything, so ours should be relatively easy once they review our case. For those of you with a more intense interview you will need to come up with new stuff. Do your research...you have plenty of time for that.

Good luck to all

[Yodrak 7]

scy,

Agreed that consular officers are not necessarily well versed in immigration law. But the ones who process visa applications are well trained in the rules and regulations that implement those portions of the law that they are dealing with. And they are well trained in the issues that are of concern in the local environment. Don't, however, expect that they can give good answers to things about CBP procedures at a POE or USCIS procedures for adjustment of status.

I can't agree or disagree about the general statement that the majority of consular officers are on one-year assignments, so I'll accept that as true for the purpose of discussion. But I can say that the consular officers who I've observed processing visa applications in the IVU are not such officers. I recognize many of the same faces at the interview windows year after year when I go into the consulate in my wife's country. I seriously doubt that many consulates, especially in high-fraud posts, use one-year rotational officers to process immigrant visa cases.

I also don't believe that processing visa applications, particularly in the IVU, is mostly bureaucratic paperwork. Yes there's a lot of paperwork involved that needs to be carefully scrutinized, but there's a high degree of people-skill involved also. An interviewing officer has only a few minutes to 'size-up' the person standing in front of them and decide if that person is credible and is consistent with the person described in the documentation that has been submitted.

It's a difficult job, and I agree that mistakes can be and are made. From the anecdotal evidence the mistakes go both ways, as witnessed by the frequent threads asking how to get scamming spouses deported.

Yodrak

I just want to add that consular officers are not necessarily the most versed in immigration laws. For the majority of them, the assignment in a consular section is a one year assignment they all go through in their careers as foreign service officers. Most of them end up doing something else, not consular related. And most of them hate consular work since it is mostly beauraucratic paperwork. In other words, they rather be done with the assignment as soon as possible and be off on their careers.

So the system that you have is a bunch of junior officers in their one year consular assignments being supervised by senior officers who are in perpetual training mode for these junior officers. You rarely find senior seasoned officers doing the grunt work in consular processing.

Consular officers are humans and they make mistakes and are sometimes overzealous in their applications of the law and are not necessarily very well versed in the law either.

[Dixie_Peach 1]

okay... i'm trying my best to keep up with all of the posts to kiya's topic... in all forums... very frustrating!!! anyways... i want to clarify a few things...

*how many CO's does Morocco have? I have only heard of the lady (Kim) and the man...

*is it ONLY the lady (Kim) who is doing the 221g/denials?

*how will we know which CO we get? is it when jamal gets there that he will find out? or is it stated somewhere in the packet that he will receive from the embassy?

at the moment... my mind is a little be-fuddled... i have contacted my attorney... and she said not to worry, that everything is in order... to keep doing what we are doing to keep all information current (meaning the contact we have with each other), and she also said that if we were given a 221g, we should have the opportunity (within a time frame) to provide needed information.

so... not sure at this moment what else i can be doing... any ideas yodrak? anybody?

I do know one thing... my attorney was VERRRRRRRRRRRRY meticulous about how the paperwork should be done... and the letter of intent... basically everything... she did not want to give them any room for doubt... her words, not mine...

okay... i'm continuing my prayers for everyone!

thanks!

Blessings to all

Lynne

[scy 0]

Here are some quotes from a DoS Inspector General regarding consular officers training and tenure. The report is from 2002, but I doubt much has changed since then.

http://oig.state.gov/documents/organization/16215.pdf

"Visa adjudicators should be able to interview applicants in their native language and be familiar with local culture and conditions, but they are often sent to post without language training or area studies. The Department intentionally restricts language training for first- and second-tour officers, because it is reluctant to invest much time and money in an untenured officer who might not make the Foreign Service a career. In addition, training in some "hard" languages is necessarily lengthy, requiring up to two years -- a long time for a career candidate trying to establish professional competence and gain tenure.

The Department considers a speaking and reading level of 3 on a 5-point scale (S-3/R-3) to be a professional competency. Average students reach the 3/3 level after four or five months of concentrated full-time training, if they are learning one of the "easy" languages such as French or Spanish. To reach the same level in a "hard" language, such as Chinese or Arabic, normally takes two years of full-time study. The second year is taught overseas in a country where that language is spoken.

Many language-trained consular officers have reported that the training was not tailored to their needs, particularly interviewing. Little or no training is given in making effective use of an interpreter, although FSN (Foreign Service Nationals) visa clerks often translate on the visa line.

"Area studies" courses, which familiarize students with the social and political cultures of a region, generally do not provide the information visa officers most need. Post-specific language insights and interviewing techniques, acquired during a two- or three-year assignment, are rarely passed on to successors because of pervasive staffing gaps."

"Consular sections, responsible for the visa function and providing services for American citizens abroad, are staffed by consular cone officers and by junior officers from all cones who traditionally serve at least one year in a consular position during their first four years in the Foreign Service. This “rite of passage” for most officers anticipating careers in the administrative, economic, public affairs, or political cones is often considered a period to be endured and kept as short as possible. The Bureau of Human Resources (HR) created increasing numbers of “rotational assignments” worldwide in which junior officers serve one year in a consular section followed by a year in a position in another section of an embassy corresponding to the officer’s future career track. HR favors this policy because it gives broader experience to new officers. The policy, however, makes consular section managers into perpetual training officers; frequently, junior officers bear the burden of training new arrivals as well.

As hiring failed to match attrition, there were fewer experienced mid-level consular cone officers to fill mid-level positions worldwide. Junior officers were then assigned to these positions in “stretch” assignments... Worldwide consular staffing, particularly in large visa units and at one-person consular sections, is inadequate to meet the increased demand. Established positions are unfilled for long periods, or are filled by inexperienced junior officers. The dearth of mid-career officers is particularly evident."

scy,

Agreed that consular officers are not necessarily well versed in immigration law. But the ones who process visa applications are well trained in the rules and regulations that implement those portions of the law that they are dealing with. And they are well trained in the issues that are of concern in the local environment. Don't, however, expect that they can give good answers to things about CBP procedures at a POE or USCIS procedures for adjustment of status.

I can't agree or disagree about the general statement that the majority of consular officers are on one-year assignments, so I'll accept that as true for the purpose of discussion. But I can say that the consular officers who I've observed processing visa applications in the IVU are not such officers. I recognize many of the same faces at the interview windows year after year when I go into the consulate in my wife's country. I seriously doubt that many consulates, especially in high-fraud posts, use one-year rotational officers to process immigrant visa cases.

I also don't believe that processing visa applications, particularly in the IVU, is mostly bureaucratic paperwork. Yes there's a lot of paperwork involved that needs to be carefully scrutinized, but there's a high degree of people-skill involved also. An interviewing officer has only a few minutes to 'size-up' the person standing in front of them and decide if that person is credible and is consistent with the person described in the documentation that has been submitted.

It's a difficult job, and I agree that mistakes can be and are made. From the anecdotal evidence the mistakes go both ways, as witnessed by the frequent threads asking how to get scamming spouses deported.

Yodrak

I just want to add that consular officers are not necessarily the most versed in immigration laws. For the majority of them, the assignment in a consular section is a one year assignment they all go through in their careers as foreign service officers. Most of them end up doing something else, not consular related. And most of them hate consular work since it is mostly beauraucratic paperwork. In other words, they rather be done with the assignment as soon as possible and be off on their careers.

So the system that you have is a bunch of junior officers in their one year consular assignments being supervised by senior officers who are in perpetual training mode for these junior officers. You rarely find senior seasoned officers doing the grunt work in consular processing.

Consular officers are humans and they make mistakes and are sometimes overzealous in their applications of the law and are not necessarily very well versed in the law either.

Edited March 2, 2006 by scy

[Yodrak 7]

scy,

Good and interesting information - thanks for sharing it.

Yodrak

Here are some quotes from a DoS Inspector General regarding consular officers training and tenure. The report is from 2002, but I doubt much has changed since then.

http://oig.state.gov/documents/organization/16215.pdf

....

[Melo 1]

I too think this should be pinned

[babybunny 2]

you know waht about the cases sitting in 221g hell

pending admin review. this fate is bad too

I know people sitting on AR longer than 2 years.

[scorpio232 0]

9 FAM 42.81 N1 Visa Issued or Refused if Application Properly Completed and Executed

(TL:VISA-66; 9-30-92)

There are no exceptions to the rule that once a visa application has been properly completed and executed before a consular officer a visa must be either issued or refused. For statistical and comparison purposes, all posts should follow the identical refusal procedures and report refusals the same way in their required reports of visas issued and refused. [see FAM 9 PART IV - Reports.] Accordingly, any alien to whom a visa is not issued by the end of the working day on which the application is made, or by the end of the next working day if it is normal post procedure to issue visas to some or all applicants the following day, must be found ineligible under one or more provisions of INA 212( a), 212( e), or 221( g).

(INA 221( g) is not to be used when a provision of INA 212(a) is applicable.)

This requirement to find an applicant ineligible when a visa is not issued applies even when:

(1) A case is medically deferred;

(2) The post requests an advisory opinion from the Department;

(3) The post decides to make additional local inquiries or conduct a full investigation; or

(4) The only deficiency is a clearance from another post. There is no such thing as an informal refusal or a pending case once a formal application has been made.

9 FAM 42.81 N2 Notice of Denials

(TL:VISA-66; 9-30-92)

If the consular officer determines an alien to be excludable under INA 212( a), the consular officer shall provide the alien with a timely written notice that states the determination, and lists the specific provision or provisions of the law under which the alien is excludable.

9 FAM 42.81 N3 Guidelines on Grounds for Refusals

(TL:VISA-66; 9-30-92)

Guidelines for determining the applicable INA provisions as grounds of refusal in varying circumstances follow:

(1) When a spouse or child of the principal alien is ineligible for a visa and the principal alien and remainder of the family decide to wait until the ineligible person has overcome the ineligibility, the spouse or child should be refused under the pertinent section( s) of INA 212( a), 212( e), or 221( g). The remainder of the family should be refused under INA 221( g).

(2) When the principal alien only is ineligible, the principal alien should be refused under the pertinent grounds of INA 212( a), 212( e), or 221( g). Other family members should be refused under INA 221( g).

(3) When an applicant is delayed for suspected tuberculosis, the applicant and family members who wish to wait and travel with the applicant should be refused under INA 221( g). If further tests indicate ineligibility under INA 212( a)(1)( A)( i), a new refusal under that section should be made for the afflicted applicant only.

(4) When a case is deferred for the results of an advisory opinion, an investigation, an inquiry, or a clearance, the principal alien and family members should all be refused under INA 221( g). If subsequent information calls for refusal under INA 212( a), a new finding should be made under the pertinent section only for the applicant concerned.

CLICK LINK BELOW TO SEE LAW ON INELIGIBILITY FOR VISA, IF EVERYTHING INSIDE THIS LINK DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU.

YOU WILL BE ISSUED YOUR VISA WHEN YOU HAVE YOUR INTERVIEW AT THE CONSULATE AND YOUR DOCUMENTS ARE PREPARED THE WAY THE CONSULATE REQUEST THEM AND YOU HAVE EVERYTHING THAT WAS ASKED OF YOU TO BRING TO THE INTERVIEW.

INA 212 (A), (E)

9 FAM 42.81 N4 Reconsidering Refusal

9 FAM 42.81 N4.1 Applicant Has 1 Year To Overcome Refusal to Avoid New Fee

(TL:VISA-3; 8-30-87)

Under 22 CFR 42.81( e) a refused alien need pay no new application fee if evidence is presented overcoming the ground of ineligibility within 1 year of the date of refusal.

9 FAM 42.81 N4.2 No New Fee Required in Certain Other Cases

(TL:VISA-66; 9-30-92)

See FAM 9 section 9 FAM 42.67 N1.

9 FAM 42.81 N4.3 Reconsidering Refusal After 1 Year

(TL:VISA-3; 8-30-87)

As long as the applicant is still entitled to visa status, reconsideration may be given to the case at any time. If more than1 year has elapsed, however, a new application and fee must be taken prior to the approval of the case and to the issuance of a visa. [see 22 CFR 42.43, Revocation of Petitions and 22 CFR 42.83, Termination of Registration.]

This post has been edited by scorpio232: Yesterday, 02:34 PM

[U.S. Wendy 0]

You have my support as well.

I'm in the 221 g abyss right now.

We need your support...Many K1/K3/CR1 visa petitions are being returned to the United States.

More and more this is how Morocco is handling visa petitions, and it does not matter the amount of proof of relationship you provide. This is not only happening in Morocco but in US consulates all over the world...it could happen to you.

We need a central place to review/share extremely important information to help ourselves and others going through this issue. Possibly even prevent this from happening to others in the future.

I will gladly create a legible, credible, and searchable compilation of all immigration guidelines surrounding petition return/revocation, research, etc. if VJ would commit to pinning this issue for us.

Petitions Being Returned to the United States

If you support pinning this issue...please say so by posting in this topic. Without forum support the issue will never get pinned. Thank you.

Please show your support by posting it here...

~Kiya~

[Yodrak 7]

Great thread, glad somebody brought it back to life (but sorry for the reason why).

Yup - it was me who moved it from K1. Clearly a consular issue, and applicable to K3 and immigrant visa people as well as K1.

Yodrak

[CountryBoy 0]

Posts discussing this subject should be made in the The Forum Embassy and Consulate General Discussion Forum which is located HERE.

You can also find the more appropriate forum by clicking on the “Forums” tab at the top of this page and scrolling down the page that opens. Look for the The Forum Embassy and Consulate General Discussion Forum link on the list.

This thread has already been moved to that forum therefore the OP does not need to resubmit it, but any research that members might want to do on the subject can be done there as well.

CB

[paisita411 0]

THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE!!!

I just got home from visiting my husband in Colombia last night (6/17/07) and of course, today I'm sitting at work completely bummed out because although we had a wonderful time together, everytime someone asks me how my trip was I want to say "TERRIBLE!! I'm here and he's there and we don't know when he's coming!!!" It takes all my strenght not to cry everytime.

Well....my cell phone rings..ID UNAVAILABLE...I'm so busy that I hesitate to answer b/c its probably a bill collector (ha ha ha), but I think, sometimes when the hubby calls it says the same thing...so I answered......

"This is the vice-consul from the US Embassy in Bogota..." I almost fell out of my chair! "We have your husband's application under administrative review and want to offer you another opportunity to interview in Bogota" The lady is as nice and polite as she can be, she tells me that the police certificate and medical are all valid and that she only needs me to send her an updated I-864 with this year's tax return and how SOON DO YOU WANT THE INTERVEIW? (YESTERDAY) She says that the embassy understands that long distance relationships are difficult and that they have to be very carefull about situtations with marriage fraud (she was almost apologizing to me)...then she says to me...."do you remember that I was the one that interviewed you and your husband in Februrary?" I SURE DID! So with that I started to explain away some of the concerns she raised at the interveiw and she said "lets not revisit the interview, I'm going to give you the opporutnity to have another interview with another officer and to provide more evidence" I told her that I just got home from Colombia last night and she said "that's great! that will be very beneficial to proving the validity of your marriage"

I don't know if this was prompted by my constant pestering of my congressman, incestant prayers to the Almighty or what, but I thank God first for this unbelievable turn of events and secondly to the support from the VJ community!

I have a meeting with my boss today to formally request the time off (I'm out of vacation days and just got home yesterday!) and as soon as I get the OK at work I'm emailing her with my availability for the appointment!!!!!!! It looks like we can have an interview in less than a month!!!

I had to share this with my VJ community

[U.S. Wendy 0]

OskaryAndrea,

That's Wonderful!!!!

I wish you both all the best!!!!

By the way, we were interviewed by the Vice Consul in Albania. I wish he'd call me and offer a second interview......better yet, when we do go before them again, I hope we get a different CO or I guess I'm moving to Albania. .

Anyway, congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited June 20, 2007 by U.S. Wendy

[paisita411 0]

Thanks Wendy! We have our 3rd interview in Bogota on July 23rd. They've scheduled us in without any additional fees or going through the usual hoops. The vice-consul emailed me the confirmation today with some instrucctions for the interview and said that we would be assigned a new consular officer to interview us. I'm here reviewing all of the questions we were asked the last time and adding all the possible ones I can find. Well, I know how you feel and will continue to keep you and everyone that's going through this hell in my prayers. My only advice is to keep working closely with your congressman, it seems that this is what did the trick for us.