Bin Laden 'firefight': Only one man was armed

[HeatDeath 431]

It's not just about 9/11 Paul, not by a long shot. Why do you even think it is as you are such a free thinking individual?

A ) I'm not Paul.

B ) As I established, quite laboriously I think, in the post you block quoted [without apparently having read], "it" has almost nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks themselves. "It" [referring, I assume, to the the May 2011 strike in Pakistan], if it was "about" anything at all, was primarily "about" the 2004 video in which responsibility for the 9/11 attacks was claimed by someone claiming [in my opinion, reasonably credibly] to be Osama bin Laden, then occupying a leadership position in the Al-Qaeda organization.

Edited May 5, 2011 by HeatDeath

[Peikko 1,575]

A ) I'm not Paul.

B ) As I established, quite laboriously I think, in the post you block quoted [without apparently having read], "this" has almost nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks themselves. "This" [referring, I assume, to the the May 2011 strike in Pakistan], if it was about anything at all, was primarily about the 2004 video in which responsibility for the 9/11 attacks was claimed by someone claiming [in my opinion, reasonably credibly] to be Osama bin Laden, then occupying a leadership position in the Al-Qaeda organization.

I apologize for calling you Paul.

I don't think you did establish that it was entirely about some 2004 video claim at all (I did read it in its entirety)

I do think it was a mistake for the post 9/11 US government officials to quite so categorically lay the blame for the 9/11 attacks in the minds of the US people on Bin Laden personally and make him public enemy no1 for that reason alone. However, whether or not he was personally involved in the 9/11 attacks is not really in that much in doubt by anyone except perhaps those who believe the US government planned the whole thing.

Bin Laden has made no secret of his enmity towards the US, nor his stated aims of repulsing the US and its influence from Saudi Arabia, the destruction of Israel and toppling any regime in the Middle East that has pro US sympathies. His organisation is extremely destabilizing whatever you might think of the rights and wrongs of US interventionist policies over the years and under presidents of every hue.

If anything the US government pushed themselves in the tight corner of having to eliminate Bin Laden, but once they had done so, there was no way to get out of it. Whether or not they should have made more of an effort to capture him alive is now moot. There are all kinds of reasons, both operational and political that render his death a satisfactory outcome from the US point of view, not just from the perspective of the present WH incumbent, but for the US people as a whole..

[slim 1,533]

Simply a hypothetical.

Based on training, experience, mission necessity and SOPs/ROEs.

Let a forensic scientist prove their surgery.?

How and why?

This isn't CSI Miami where it was "illegal" to kill someone "execution style." Does it make it more illegal if they stood over his body and took another shot?

"Execution style gun shot wound" doesn't tell you anything about what he was doing or how he was behaving at the time of the shooting - which is what this debate is all about. How did the SEALs determine he was "acting in a threatening manner? Was he coming towards them? Was he threatening in some way

He was most likely challenged, in Arabic, and didn't heed that challenge. Simple non-compliance in those situations is enough to be deemed a threat.

[HeatDeath 431]

I apologize for calling you Paul.

I don't think you did establish that it was entirely about some 2004 video claim at all (I did read it in its entirety)

I do think it was a mistake for the post 9/11 US government officials to quite so categorically lay the blame for the 9/11 attacks in the minds of the US people on Bin Laden personally and make him public enemy no1 for that reason alone. However, whether or not he was personally involved in the 9/11 attacks is not really in that much in doubt by anyone except perhaps those who believe the US government planned the whole thing.

Bin Laden has made no secret of his enmity towards the US, nor his stated aims of repulsing the US and its influence from Saudi Arabia, the destruction of Israel and toppling any regime in the Middle East that has pro US sympathies. His organisation is extremely destabilizing whatever you might think of the rights and wrongs of US interventionist policies over the years and under presidents of every hue.

If anything the US government pushed themselves in the tight corner of having to eliminate Bin Laden, but once they had done so, there was no way to get out of it. Whether or not they should have made more of an effort to capture him alive is now moot. There are all kinds of reasons, both operational and political that render his death a satisfactory outcome from the US point of view, not just from the perspective of the present WH incumbent, but for the US people as a whole..

I agree with everything you just said. I didn't attempt to establish that the May 2011 strike was entirely about the 2004 video, merely that the 2004 video was, in itself, sufficient to establish the moral legitimacy to the May 2011 raid. Almost certainly [modulo the truther theory] there were additional factors that enhanced the legitimacy of the raid and it's outcome. I'm just saying that the 2004 video would have been enough, in and of itself.

[Zero Sum 305]

One thing I gotta question about the speed at which they confirmed his identity via DNA... in the CSI show world its obviously fast (DNA matches in minutes, LOL)... but the people I know that do this kind of work tell me it takes more than 24 hours to do DNA work like this.

[/Devils Advocate]

[HeatDeath 431]

One thing I gotta question about the speed at which they confirmed his identity via DNA... in the CSI show world its obviously fast (DNA matches in minutes, LOL)... but the people I know that do this kind of work tell me it takes more than 24 hours to do DNA work like this.

[/Devils Advocate]

Obligatory Simpsons:

DNA Guy: Ooh, nice eyelash. Yours?

Wiggum: No. We need to find out who it belonged to. We want a DNA test.

DNA Guy: Ooh, ooh, ee, ooh, ooh, that takes, uh, 8 to 10 weeks.

Wiggum: [sighs, hands him a carton of cigarettes]

DNA Guy: Did I say weeks? 'Cause I meant seconds. [runs over to another machine, grabs a card from it; puts it in a computer]

Wiggum: What do you got, the whole town's DNA on file?

DNA guy: Y'uh huh. If you've ever handled a penny, the government's got your DNA. Why do you think they keep 'em in circulation?

Edited May 5, 2011 by HeatDeath

[slim 1,533]

If you honestly really have this little faith in your government - and have not had any trust in them during several past administrations - all I can wonder is why on earth would you then choose to live in this country?

This is MY country.

I will not just leave because things aren't going the way I want them to. I will do my best to fix them.

[FaithfulandTrue 6]

I don't know what's real or not real anymore.. they keep "changing the story".. was he killed years ago or what.. is he dead or not.. I'm soooooooooooo confused.. somebody PLEASE tell what really happened

[Little_My 464]

This is MY country.

I will not just leave because things aren't going the way I want them to. I will do my best to fix them.

Well, that was a question posed primarily to Paul, since he had stated in a previous post that in his opinion, the government of this country during several past administrations has had a track record of lying to their people, hiding the truth and manipulating situations to benefit their personal goals. I have also gotten the sense out of his posts that he has little faith in that ever changing - or, at least chanhing anywhere in the foreseeable future. But maybe that is just my mis-conception of him.

[Peikko 1,575]

I agree with everything you just said. I didn't attempt to establish that the May 2011 strike was entirely about the 2004 video, merely that the 2004 video was, in itself, sufficient to establish the moral legitimacy to the May 2011 raid. Almost certainly [modulo the truther theory] there were additional factors that enhanced the legitimacy of the raid and it's outcome. I'm just saying that the 2004 video would have been enough, in and of itself.

OK, point taken.

[Danno 1,228]

It's their own money and now big government is saying they are going to take it. How are you ok with this?

Because Abortions are almost always elective, like hair transplants and breast implants.

One person decided to spend their money on an abortion or hair transplant ... and another spends his on a bass boat.

They should all be deductible or none should.

[slim 1,533]

Well, that was a question posed primarily to Paul, since he had stated in a previous post that in his opinion, the government of this country during several past administrations has had a track record of lying to their people, hiding the truth and manipulating situations to benefit their personal goals. I have also gotten the sense out of his posts that he has little faith in that ever changing - or, at least chanhing anywhere in the foreseeable future. But maybe that is just my mis-conception of him.

I don't think you've misconceptualized him at all. He is distrustful of our government - as all of us should be.

The commmon misconception about folks like Paul is in their negativity towards goverment they're negative toward the US as well. The very basis folks are distrustful of the government is borne of a love for America.

[Vi-Jay 218]

Based on training, experience, mission necessity and SOPs/ROEs.

How and why?

This isn't CSI Miami where it was "illegal" to kill someone "execution style." Does it make it more illegal if they stood over his body and took another shot?

He was most likely challenged, in Arabic, and didn't heed that challenge. Simple non-compliance in those situations is enough to be deemed a threat.

I presented possible hypotheticals. Simply hypotheticals.

The story this administration is giving, is changing. A moving target.

This administration had months to prepare for this event. The before, the during and the after.

I am disturbed by the rapidly changing story and have very little trust in the current administration.

The changing story and refusal to provide evidence, this administration is creating the conspiracy theories and proving again that they are of an elitist mentality. We the PEOPLE should just shut up and trust them?

It's funny when Lovitz (vid) is doing it, but, our govt.? I'm not laughing.

[Vi-Jay 218]

Determine possibility? As in, determine that there "possibly was an execution style gun shot wound to his head"? And that would be convincing enough?

"Execution style gun shot wound" doesn't tell you anything about what he was doing or how he was behaving at the time of the shooting - which is what this debate is all about. How did the SEALs determine he was "acting in a threatening manner? Was he coming towards them? Was he threatening in some way (besides by the obvious way of being.. well, Osama Bin Laden). and, again - I seriously, seriously doubt any forensic expert could make any statement that would put all this speculation to rest.

Sure. Maybe they did not kill him. Maybe it was all a big hoax. Maybe he was actually Obama's biological brother, and the government had to do whatever it took to hide that, especially with all this talk abut his birth certificate. That is a theory too.

Please see post #73

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Has the thought entered anyone's mind that the only people that know exactly what happened are those that were present at the event? And that all involved were debriefed afterwards? And that if 25 people witness the same event that there will be variations of what each saw? And that all of this information wasn't available immediately after the event?

Perhaps the stupidity was making any statement of details so soon. Perhaps it would have been wiser to wait until all information was in hand and digested. Then an accurate statement could have been made instead of updating and changing what was originally reported. This would be even better to all of the conspiracy theorists- the government could have just made up one lie and stuck with it. Less stress for all of the paranoia out there.

Or maybe the government isn't too bright. The come out with a statement of lies, then continually update the lies by changing them. It would have been easier to stick to one lie. The only ones who know what really happened were those that actively participated. Dead men tell no tales. He came at me with an AK-47, so I capped him.