The sun is still shining? For now maybe, but when you wake up

[DukeOfYork 28]

So, the long and short here is that you don't know the answer to my questions.

Since you were too lazy to click on the link above your last post, I'll put the contents here for you.

Copyright 2009 HT Media Ltd.All Rights Reserved US Fed News

October 8, 2009 Thursday 5:49 PM EST

LENGTH: 189 words

HEADLINE: HEALTHCARE BILL CUTS $404 BILLION FROM MEDICARE, MEDICAID

WASHINGTON, Oct. 7 -- Rep. Elton W. Gallegly, R-Calif. (24th CD), issued the following news release:

The non-partisan Congressional Budget Office scored the U.S. Senate Finance Committee healthcare bill today, and stated it would cut $404 billion in Medicare and Medicaid, U.S. Rep. Elton Gallegly (R-Ventura & Santa Barbara Counties) noted.

"This bill will hurt seniors by limiting access, increasing costs and by lowering health care efficiencies," Gallegly said. "Medicare needs to be reformed, not gutted."

According to the CBO score, in addition to cutting $404 billion in Medicare and Medicaid, the bill also will impose more than $310 billion in new taxes and fees during the first 10 years.

The Medicare cuts include:

* $133 billion to Medicare Advantage

* $128.8 billion to hospitals

* $56 billion to home health care

* $19.8 billion to Medicare Part D

* $14.6 billion to skilled nursing facilities

* $23.1 billion to Part B Schedules, except physician services

* $11 billion to hospices

* $3 billion to medical imaging

Source: http://www.insurancenewsnet.com/article.aspx?id=140378

Edited March 29, 2010 by DukeOfYork

[Dan T 8]

So, the long and short here is that you don't know the answer to my questions.

actually its indicitive of my awareness of the futility of trying to convince you and your ilk that obama is perpetually in campaign mode and lies about health care every time he opens his mouth. if you really wanted to see any truth in my assertions i have provided you with more than enough of a starting point. because i am inarticulate and have no stamina nor care to change the minds of people who disagree does not mean the facts are not the facts. stick your head in the sand if you want, or do the research yourself, either way i dont much care. i know that this bill is bad for this country, the fact that you refuse to learn it is of no consequence.

[DukeOfYork 28]

@Big Dog:

Here's another source.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=121074988

I could do this all day long. Google makes debate so easy.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

actually its indicitive of my awareness of the futility of trying to convince you and your ilk that obama is perpetually in campaign mode and lies about health care every time he opens his mouth. if you really wanted to see any truth in my assertions i have provided you with more than enough of a starting point. because i am inarticulate and have no stamina nor care to change the minds of people who disagree does not mean the facts are not the facts. stick your head in the sand if you want, or do the research yourself, either way i dont much care. i know that this bill is bad for this country, the fact that you refuse to learn it is of no consequence.

@Big Dog:

Here's another source.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=121074988

I could do this all day long. Google makes debate so easy.

Okay, what is it going to take for you guys to substantiate your argument with anything other than cheap talking points? Which sections of the legislation cut Medicare benefits, push Seniors into Medicaid and serve as disincentives for employers to provide health insurance benefits to their employees? Be specific or admit that you don't know and that you're just parroting talking points.

[Dan T 8]

@Big Dog:

Here's another source.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=121074988

I could do this all day long. Google makes debate so easy.

its really a burn to deform supporters when you pull something from npr(hardly a fan of the gop), awesome awesome awesome. if people insist on labeling opponents to this bill as health care reform opponents, ive even been called a neo-con for my views as expressed in this forum, then Im going to start calling the people backing this bill healthcare deform supports because it deforms our health care system and deforms the free market health insurance industry. and yes big dog that was a completely original thought as few of them as I appear to have...

Edited March 29, 2010 by Dan T

[Dan J 277]

@Big Dog:

Here's another source.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=121074988

I could do this all day long. Google makes debate so easy.

It doesn't help you think, it only helps you show what other people think.

I've mentioned this before, businesses will charge whatever they the customer will pay for a product or service, not cost + a set margin. In most industries, competition helps reduce or keep the margin low. To make money, companies find ways to increase efficiency and use that as an edge over their competitors.

The health care industry doesn't have much competition for a few reasons. Medical products and drugs are patented, which limits the competition for quite a few years on that. Consumers of healthcare are insulated for the cost through insurance that is often paid in part by an employer who only offers its employees a choice of one, maybe two insurance plans. People don't usually comparison shop in a medical emergency, they need care and need it now. In part due to the complexity of insurance rembirsment, Its pretty much impossible to comparison shop anything except for procedures like lasik which are often not covered by insurance.

Medicare is essentially the largest single insurance provider in the US. It has quite a bit of power in forcing providers to become more efficient. Providers can try to avoid efficiency by pushing costs to other insurance providers, but there is only so much that they will take.

[DukeOfYork 28]

Be specific or admit that you don't know and that you're just parroting talking points.

Just for the record, you weren't the first person who rattled on about "the sun coming up" the next morning, and you keep doing it in thread after thread. I heard it every day after this terrible legislation was passed. You are no different. All I've ever read from you are talking points, likely straight from Maddow/Olberman themselves.

The sun may have come up and continues to shine, but company after company [you know, the ones that employ people and pay them for their work like Caterpillar and AT&T?] say that this will cost them hundreds of millions.

Obama's big mistake was trying to reform health care rather than addressing the reasons behind the high costs. If you get the costs down, the health insurance industry [who by the way has about a 2%-4% profit margin], might be able to cover more people.

Edited March 29, 2010 by DukeOfYork

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Since you were too lazy to click on the link above your last post, I'll put the contents here for you.

Source: http://www.insurancenewsnet.com/article.aspx?id=140378

The Insurance industry sure doesn't like the Medicare related provisions in the health reform package - it cuts into their bottom line. Time to put up or shut up, I say. All they need to do is truly be competitive and they have nothing to fear. Milking Medicare will be a thing of the past. As it should long have been.

Funny, too, how the organization advocating for our Seniors - the AARP - is highly supportive of the measure:

AARP Applauds Senate Passage of Historic Health Reform Package

Source: AARP Press Center

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

March 25, 2010

Key provisions make prescription drugs, health coverage more affordable for older Americans

WASHINGTON — AARP CEO A. Barry Rand released this statement following today’s passage of the Health Care and Education Affordability Reconciliation Act of 2010 by the Senate:

“Today, our nation can claim yet another landmark achievement in its rich history. The Senate’s vote to pass health care reform will help more Americans get and stay healthy by closing the Medicare prescription drug ‘doughnut hole,’ making health care coverage more affordable for millions of American families and rooting out and eliminating fraud, waste and abuse in our health care system.

“For too long, people in Medicare Part D have had to make tough choices due to the rising cost of prescription drugs. Today, we’re able to tell AARP members and all older Americans that relief is on the way. The days of skipping medications or cutting pills in half are thankfully coming to an end.

“When we began our effort to reform America’s health care system, we promised our members we would not stop fighting until affordable, high quality health care was made available to all Americans. We have kept that promise. Today, we’re able to tell our members and middle-income families across America that help is coming. Affordable coverage options will now be available to families who were previously left behind because the cost of coverage was beyond their modest means.

“Our work is not done. We will continue to educate our members and all Americans about the benefits of health care reform and what it means for them. And we’ll continue to keep a vigilant eye on how this legislative package is being implemented throughout the nation.

“We are thankful for the leadership, courage and hard work Members of Congress and the President demonstrated in ensuring they followed through on their commitment to older Americans. The fight was a tough one, but with the health of our nation at stake, it was a fight that no one could afford to lose.”

Edited March 29, 2010 by Mr. Big Dog

[Dan T 8]

Okay, what is it going to take for you guys to substantiate your argument with anything other than cheap talking points? Which sections of the legislation cut Medicare benefits, push Seniors into Medicaid and serve as disincentives for employers to provide health insurance benefits to their employees? Be specific or admit that you don't know and that you're just parroting talking points.

certainly more than the rantings of someone salivating over the scraps of obamas table. im already convinced that these cuts will happen, ive heard it from countless sources and read it on countless websites. Whether you chose to convince yourself or not does nothing to increase my level of concern for convincing you of what this bill will lead to once the timeline triggers come to pass. dismiss me if you want for the lack of depth on my posts, but you have yet to argue the facts are not the facts. do you actually intend us to come over to your side simply because you suceeded in attacking your opponents and not the validity of the argument? if i saw anything credible to convince me that my assertions were not true I might back off, but so far there is nothing ive come across in my own research and certain nothing in this forum

and eh you should check the membership numbers at the aarp since their endorsement of this package.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Dan T

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Just for the record, you weren't the first person who rattled on about "the sun coming up" the next morning, and you keep doing it in thread after thread. I heard it every day after this terrible legislation was passed. You are no different. All I've ever read from you are talking points, likely straight from Maddow/Olberman themselves.

The sun may have come up and continues to shine, but company after company [you know, the ones that employ people and pay them for their work like Caterpillar and AT&T?] say that this will cost them hundreds of millions.

Obama's big mistake was trying to reform health care rather than addressing the reasons behind the high costs. If you get the costs down, the health insurance industry [who by the way has about a 2%-4% profit margin], might be able to cover more people.

The issue isn't the profit margin, it's their efficiency - or the lack thereof - that matters.

Is there work to be done on the cost side of the equation? Absolutely. Would I have wanted that to be front and center of the debate? You bet. But we cannot have a situation where tens of thousands of people die prematurely for the lack of health insurance coverage. We cannot continue to have a situation where nearly two thirds of all bankruptcies are due to medical expenses. We can't continue to be a society that claims to be pro-life while that stance only applies to the unborn.

[DukeOfYork 28]

I'm not surprised the AARP is for it. They offer supplemental Medicare coverage. It's great for their bottom line.

Oh, the greed goes 'round and 'round...

[Dan T 8]

The issue isn't the profit margin, it's their efficiency - or the lack thereof - that matters.

Is there work to be done on the cost side of the equation? Absolutely. Would I have wanted that to be front and center of the debate? You bet. But we cannot have a situation where tens of thousands of people die prematurely for the lack of health insurance coverage. We cannot continue to have a situation where nearly two thirds of all bankruptcies are due to medical expenses. We can't continue to be a society that claims to be pro-life while that stance only applies to the unborn.

a desire to scrap this bill is not the same as a desire to maintain the status quo

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

im already convinced that these cuts will happen, ive heard it from countless sources and read it on countless websites.

You're convinced based on what the insurance lobby tells you? You don't actually know, or have even heard of, any specific provision of the legislation that will cut any actual benefits to Medicare participants. If you had, you'd reveal what those cuts are and where the legislation provides for them. Bottom line, you just don't know.

a desire to scrap this bill is not the same as a desire to maintain the status quo

That, my friend, was the choice. There was no actual alternate plan on the table.

[DukeOfYork 28]

Is there work to be done on the cost side of the equation? Absolutely. Would I have wanted that to be front and center of the debate? You bet. But we cannot have a situation where tens of thousands of people die prematurely for the lack of health insurance coverage. We cannot continue to have a situation where nearly two thirds of all bankruptcies are due to medical expenses. We can't continue to be a society that claims to be pro-life while that stance only applies to the unborn.

We agree there. It is too bad that the debate and the bill didn't primarily focus on these issues.

[Dan T 8]

You're convinced based on what the insurance lobby tells you? You don't actually know, or have even heard of, any specific provision of the legislation that will cut any actual benefits to Medicare participants. If you had, you'd reveal what those cuts are and where the legislation provides for them. Bottom line, you just don't know.

That, my friend, was the choice. There was no actual alternate plan on the table.

and im sure that had nothing at all to do with the civility and bipartisanship princess botox was so instrumental at bringing to congress. Id much sooner turn to a private for profit company for help before I turn to the government for anything at all. government has zero incentive to do anything effieciently. in ireland over 60% of employed people work for some office of the government, it wont be long before that is the case in america. its bad enough that govt is trusted with building roads, running sewer lines, providing police/military, libraries and running schools. in nj where there are more school districts than municipalities and we have a new story every 6 months of a mass corruptiong arrest of public officials govt doesnt even do those well.

the scariest sentence in the english, even scarier in chinese, is "im here from the government, and im here to help"

Edited March 29, 2010 by Dan T