Turkish girl, 16, 'buried alive by her father because she had friendships with boys'

[Nasturtium 500]

Absolutely agree that's when you should care. Makes me mad as hell to. But that's not what this thread is about. It's about the "old" beliefs that its ok to kill your daughter if she doesn't to the "right thing". Look, I feel sorry for this girl too...I think its absolutely wrong. But, this girl knew what she was doing. She knew what would happen to her if she dishonored her family. And like Sara said...just because certain individuals go around blowing things up and killing innocent people and carry an arabic name, does not make them muslims. And its absolutely wrong to blame all muslims for what a few cowards do. When a man here rapes and kills his child do we say "oh that christian is a terrorist?" How about George Bush? He is a religious man. He's the biggest terrorist I know. He sent troops to iraq and blew up many houses/buildings with many many innocent people in them. All I am saying is ...let them live their lives the way they want to and have for hundreds of years. If they dont like it and ASK for our help...by all means...go there and make change for them. But if they aren't asking...stay the hell out of it. IT'S NOT OUR BUSINESS.

Then you need to learn a few other names... and events... Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Holodomor, Holocaust, Darfur,Khmer rouge, etc. You cannot even compare the Iraq war to the Holodomor. I am in no way sanctioning innocent deaths, but since you have put a value judgement on it by numbers, then I can clearly say there are bigger incidences.

This was a terrible way to die. I feel for her. And as for the comment though that she knew what she was doing.. it may surprise you to know that the majority of women/girls who are honor killed in Jordan and accused of messing around with boys and having sex or being pregnant are found to be virgins. Crazily enough, they are not always guilty of the accused crime. Go figure. At any rate, they should be operating under a witness deal, and as you can see they are just bypassing that.

FYI to the above poster (NickD): Torah does not limit women but places the same restrictions on all peoples, male and female, who are not Levite priests. Understanding fail. Women go through regular periods on uncleanliness which would cause them to be unable to function as a priest. Uncleanliness is not equal to sin, either. It's just a state of being and has nothing to do with sin.

[DrissandAmy4ever 0]

I was talking to the person above my post, Lisa.

??

[Fandango 1,440]

it came from the fact that most non muslims refer to these monsters as muslims most muslims that i know and myself i include freely state these are not muslim they are not christian they have no God ......we are trying to make people aware that by continuing to give them the name of muslim helps them try to justify what they are doing because they are still being linked to the real muslim people by name...this gives them a grandiose feeling of..having millions of muslims on their side.........if people would just refer to these monsters as terrorist at some point in time they will be separated and identified as to what they truly are.........this was not meant as an argument or an insult to you......im just trying to do what we do daily in our life explain to people that dont understand what these monsters truly are.......so many muslim in third world countries are not educated and do not realize that Islam has never condoned killing your wife ur daughter for something that they felt brought shame to the family.......if they are educated and do some atrocity as this then they would have killed no matter what their religion is because we are taught to respect life...

sara

They identify themselves as Muslims. They commit their atrocities in the NAME of Islam, which is why they are identified as Muslim Terrorists.

I have to get to work, bbl maybe.

[DrissandAmy4ever 0]

Then you need to learn a few other names... and events... Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Holodomor, Holocaust, Darfur,Khmer rouge, etc. You cannot even compare the Iraq war to the Holodomor. I am in no way sanctioning innocent deaths, but since you have put a value judgement on it by numbers, then I can clearly say there are bigger incidences.

As you can see, I said "biggest terrorist I KNOW"...but you are absolutely right about the others...disgusting.

This was a terrible way to die. I feel for her. And as for the comment though that she knew what she was doing.. it may surprise you to know that the majority of women/girls who are honor killed in Jordan and accused of messing around with boys and having sex or being pregnant are found to be virgins. Crazily enough, they are not always guilty of the accused crime. Go figure. At any rate, they should be operating under a witness deal, and as you can see they are just bypassing that.

As I stated before, I DO NOT agree with what they did...but if the girl had already been beaten before for talking to boys, you would think going to the police after this happened, she would reconsider the next time. In my own personal opinion...I dont think there is anything wrong with talking to boys. It's talking. However, if I had been beaten by my father for talking to boys...u can bet ur bottom I would think twice about it the next time.

FYI to the above poster (NickD): Torah does not limit women but places the same restrictions on all peoples, male and female, who are not Levite priests. Understanding fail. Women go through regular periods on uncleanliness which would cause them to be unable to function as a priest. Uncleanliness is not equal to sin, either. It's just a state of being and has nothing to do with sin.

[sandinista! 1,816]

I think it's a bit disingenuous to imply that there is not a rampant problem among the Muslim community. Honor killings/suicide bombers/the way women are treated as second class citizens...come on now.

those are all rampant problems across the entire world community is what i believe she was getting at. honor killing is but one facet of an overall "domestic violence" epidemic that infects huge portions of the world. in this country, homicide is a leading cause of death for pregnant women.

Nationwide, 1,865 females were murdered by males in single victim/single offender incidents in 2007.

In cases where the victim to offender relationship could be identified, 91 percent of female victims (1,587 out of 1,743) were murdered by someone they knew. Of these, 62 percent (990 out of 1,587) were wives or intimate acquaintances of their killers. More than 10 times as many females were murdered by a male they knew than were killed by male strangers. In 88 percent of all incidents where the circumstances could be determined, the homicides were not related to the commission of any other felony, such as rape or robbery. http://www.louisianaweekly.com/news.php?viewStory=1826

louisiana had the worst stats, 2.53 women there per 100,000 were murdered by men. but i would not conclude that men murdering women is an inherent trait of louisianans based on that. focusing on their being from louisiana, instead of on the actual root causes of male on female violence, in particular by males they know or are intimate with, will not help stop women from being murdered there. just like the inordinate amount of attention focused on the religious beliefs of a certain percentage of men in the middle east who carry out this particular form of domestic violence does not prevent more deaths from happening. which is what i think you want to get at. you want women to stop being killed. but with honor killing, the fact remains that it.is.not.part.of.the.religion. and it.is.in.no.way.sanctioned.by.the religion.

suicide bombing is inherently evil, and at this moment in time is more predominant in the muslim world than in other places. though i don't see what's inherently worse, or more evil, or scary about it than narco-terror in central and south america, or organized crime in eastern europe. terror in the name of drugs and money sucks just as bad as terror in the name of God. and if only women being treated as second-class citizens were limited to the muslim world! not by a long shot.

Then you need to learn a few other names... and events... Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Holodomor, Holocaust, Darfur,Khmer rouge, etc. You cannot even compare the Iraq war to the Holodomor. I am in no way sanctioning innocent deaths, but since you have put a value judgement on it by numbers, then I can clearly say there are bigger incidences.

This was a terrible way to die. I feel for her. And as for the comment though that she knew what she was doing.. it may surprise you to know that the majority of women/girls who are honor killed in Jordan and accused of messing around with boys and having sex or being pregnant are found to be virgins. Crazily enough, they are not always guilty of the accused crime. Go figure. At any rate, they should be operating under a witness deal, and as you can see they are just bypassing that.

FYI to the above poster (NickD): Torah does not limit women but places the same restrictions on all peoples, male and female, who are not Levite priests. Understanding fail. Women go through regular periods on uncleanliness which would cause them to be unable to function as a priest. Uncleanliness is not equal to sin, either. It's just a state of being and has nothing to do with sin.

thank you julianna.

[DrissandAmy4ever 0]

and if only women being treated as second-class citizens were limited to the muslim world! not by a long shot.

thank you julianna.

absolutely agree with you...

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Leaving aside terrorism, there's nothing here to suggest that this honor killing was done "in the name of Islam". Isn't this sort of thing usually a cultural issue within the community?

[_Simpson_ 250]

Hey, I'm not talking about ALL Muslims, just the ones that pervert the religion to justify violence against others. That should go without saying, but for the sake of disclaimers, I'll go ahead and say it.

You can say it as many times as you want and I dont think it will do any good, this frustrates me. I think we as a country have made it clear that these terrorists are trying to hijack the religion . Maybe the only way to bridge the gap and have a healthy debate with a Muslim is state it is a terrorist who thinks he is doing it in the name of Allah before we mention anything of this nature. A little to PC for me but it seems that this is the only way to get Muslims off the defense and maybe then they will make some more noise about this nonsense that is going on in the name of there religion.

Edited February 6, 2010 by _Simpson_

[Ban Hammer 14,085]

Leaving aside terrorism, there's nothing here to suggest that this honor killing was done "in the name of Islam". Isn't this sort of thing usually a cultural issue within the community?

[_Simpson_ 250]

Leaving aside terrorism, there's nothing here to suggest that this honor killing was done "in the name of Islam". Isn't this sort of thing usually a cultural issue within the community?

A Muslim community, yes.

Edited February 6, 2010 by _Simpson_

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

A Muslim community, yes.

The family in question are ethnic Kurds. If you are really interested in this story you might want to read up about that.

[_Simpson_ 250]

The family in question are ethnic Kurds. If you are really interested in this story you might want to read up about that.

are you saying this was a Christian family?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

are you saying this was a Christian family?

I'm saying exactly what I said. Read up on the Kurds before you ask irrelevant questions.

[Peikko 1,575]

Then you need to learn a few other names... and events... Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Holodomor, Holocaust, Darfur,Khmer rouge, etc. You cannot even compare the Iraq war to the Holodomor. I am in no way sanctioning innocent deaths, but since you have put a value judgement on it by numbers, then I can clearly say there are bigger incidences.

This was a terrible way to die. I feel for her. And as for the comment though that she knew what she was doing.. it may surprise you to know that the majority of women/girls who are honor killed in Jordan and accused of messing around with boys and having sex or being pregnant are found to be virgins. Crazily enough, they are not always guilty of the accused crime. Go figure. At any rate, they should be operating under a witness deal, and as you can see they are just bypassing that.

FYI to the above poster (NickD): Torah does not limit women but places the same restrictions on all peoples, male and female, who are not Levite priests. Understanding fail. Women go through regular periods on uncleanliness which would cause them to be unable to function as a priest. Uncleanliness is not equal to sin, either. It's just a state of being and has nothing to do with sin.

Periods are not 'unclean' and for a religion to suggest that a natural bodily function of a woman is 'unclean' is absurd, and I can't imagine why a western woman would go along with that and just say, "oh, that's just the way it is."

How does having a period prevent a woman from giving valid interpretations of religious material or to be able to function as an intelligent member of a comunity? Women are not sick when they have periods (Most women at any rate), they do not become stupid when they are having their periods, nor can they contaminate anyone else when they have their periods. Having a period does not render a woman unfit and unable to do any task at all. I have real difficulty with this concept, and can't find a rational way to validate it.

[Nasturtium 500]

Periods are not 'unclean' and for a religion to suggest that a natural bodily function of a woman is 'unclean' is absurd, and I can't imagine why a western woman would go along with that and just say, "oh, that's just the way it is."

How does having a period prevent a woman from giving valid interpretations of religious material or to be able to function as an intelligent member of a comunity? Women are not sick when they have periods (Most women at any rate), they do not become stupid when they are having their periods, nor can they contaminate anyone else when they have their periods. Having a period does not render a woman unfit and unable to do any task at all. I have real difficulty with this concept, and can't find a rational way to validate it.

All of this you just said means you do not understand what ritual uncleanliness versus purity is... because none of the above has anything to do with that. Just for fun, consider that G-d commanded things which led to the ritual impurity of the individuals involved and it was a mitzvot to comply. How does that fit into your preconcieved ideas of the conceptualisation of it? What you are describing is a completely Eurocentric historical POV. Sorry, it doesn't apply.