A Thankful President

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

...the "church state" line which keeps moving.

You mean the line that some religous zealots are frustrated about not being able to move because it would violate the Constitution, yes?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Danno keeps posting prayers invoked by public figures thinking that equates to no separation of church and state. What church is the church of the federal government, Danno? You haven't answered that one? United Methodist? Lutheran? Baptist?

'Ol Thomas Jefferson must be rolling in his grave.

Edited November 26, 2009 by Galt's gallstones

[Danno 1,228]

Right Danno. I am quite sure that is your line of reasoning. The problem is, it isn't reasoning. Church and state separation is nothing to do with whether people in government pray or not.

Again you fail to address the point, why will your child be taught a fraudulent history about "Thanks Giving"?

And if the current lesson is complete..... why does it sound so different from the proclamations history has preserved?

[Danno 1,228]

Danno, public figures praying or invoking the name of God doesn't equate to an institutionalized church, but if you think it does, please tell us what church is the official church of the U.S. of A.? Is it the Roman Catholic Church? The United Methodist Church? The Lutheran Church? Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints (LDS)?

YOu are going backwards again Steven,

The Constitution clearly forbids any establishment an official denomination or "Church".

So let me ask you, if a teacher were to have a bible on her desk..... which church does it establish? Catholic, Methodist, Baptist Lutheran?

Again, when a team prays before a game, what Church does it begin to establish? Mormon, Pentecostal, Episcopalian?

[Peikko 1,575]

Right Danno. I am quite sure that is your line of reasoning. The problem is, it isn't reasoning. Church and state separation is nothing to do with whether people in government pray or not.

Again you fail to address the point, why will your child be taught a fraudulent history about "Thanks Giving"?

And if the current lesson is complete..... why does it sound so different from the proclamations history has preserved?

What are you blathering on about now? Is this another of these 'public schools are full of liberal perverts' paranoid outbursts?

[Danno 1,228]

Right Danno. I am quite sure that is your line of reasoning. The problem is, it isn't reasoning. Church and state separation is nothing to do with whether people in government pray or not.

Again you fail to address the point, why will your child be taught a fraudulent history about "Thanks Giving"?

And if the current lesson is complete..... why does it sound so different from the proclamations history has preserved?

What are you blathering on about now? Is this another of these 'public schools are full of liberal perverts' paranoid outbursts?

Still in avoidance mode I see.

MC, again you are short on substance.

[Peikko 1,575]

Right Danno. I am quite sure that is your line of reasoning. The problem is, it isn't reasoning. Church and state separation is nothing to do with whether people in government pray or not.

Again you fail to address the point, why will your child be taught a fraudulent history about "Thanks Giving"?

And if the current lesson is complete..... why does it sound so different from the proclamations history has preserved?

What are you blathering on about now? Is this another of these 'public schools are full of liberal perverts' paranoid outbursts?

Still in avoidance mode I see.

MC, again you are short on substance.

There is nothing to avoid except your paranoia. Schools have not changed history Danno, it's still the same as it always was.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Danno, public figures praying or invoking the name of God doesn't equate to an institutionalized church, but if you think it does, please tell us what church is the official church of the U.S. of A.? Is it the Roman Catholic Church? The United Methodist Church? The Lutheran Church? Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints (LDS)?

YOu are going backwards again Steven,

The Constitution clearly forbids any establishment an official denomination or "Church".

So let me ask you, if a teacher were to have a bible on her desk..... which church does it establish? Catholic, Methodist, Baptist Lutheran?

Again, when a team prays before a game, what Church does it begin to establish? Mormon, Pentecostal, Episcopalian?

Post #10 You keep on and on about public prayer, as if it's under attack when in fact the Supreme Court ruling didn't ban public prayer. Danno, maybe if you stopped reading so much World Nut Daily and other Right Wing Nut propaganda, you'd stop parroting these stupid, pointless arguments against fictitious enemies.

But let's listen from Christianity Today:

The ACLU Is Not Evil

And neither are many people with whom we disagree. Stephen L. Carter

I would like to say a word in defense of the American Civil Liberties Union. Christians—including me, both in the pages of CT and elsewhere—often criticize the ACLU for advocating separation of church and state in ways that seem less grounded in the Constitution and in history than in an ideological desire for a religion-free public arena. On the other hand, I shudder when fellow Christians blithely dismiss the organization as fundamentally biased against them. Some call it the Anti-Christian Liberals Union or the Anti-Christian Litigation Unit. There are other, less friendly acronyms as well. I think the ACLU is wrong to oppose religious expression in the public square, but being wrong is not the same as being evil.

More to the point, the ACLU is often right about the First Amendment's free exercise clause, taking on fights that others refuse. It might surprise some critics that the ACLU defends the free speech and free exercise rights of, well, Christians.

For example, in 2001, the group interceded with a school district in Michigan that had deleted a high school senior's yearbook entry because she included a Bible verse. In 2002, the ACLU filed a brief on behalf of a pastor associated with Operation Rescue who was prevented from participating in a parade because his pro-life poster showed a photograph of an aborted baby. And last September, the organization joined a lawsuit on behalf of a New Jersey second-grader who was not allowed to sing "Awesome God" in a school talent show. (All of these examples are easily accessible on several Web pages now devoted to defending the ACLU 's record on Christianity.)

Yet I must confess that, although I am pleased to balance the record, defending the ACLU is not my primary purpose here. I am more concerned about a habit of mind that seems to be growing among my fellow Christians, both political liberals and conservatives. That is, we seem to mimic the secular world's conflation of disagreement with wickedness, as if not sharing my worldview places my critic outside the realm of rational discourse.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/may/22.64.html

[Ban Hammer 14,619]

steven, can you find me a few links where the aclu defended the 2nd amendment?

[Danno 1,228]

Danno, public figures praying or invoking the name of God doesn't equate to an institutionalized church, but if you think it does, please tell us what church is the official church of the U.S. of A.? Is it the Roman Catholic Church? The United Methodist Church? The Lutheran Church? Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints (LDS)?

YOu are going backwards again Steven,

The Constitution clearly forbids any establishment an official denomination or "Church".

So let me ask you, if a teacher were to have a bible on her desk..... which church does it establish? Catholic, Methodist, Baptist Lutheran?

Again, when a team prays before a game, what Church does it begin to establish? Mormon, Pentecostal, Episcopalian?

Post #10 You keep on and on about public prayer, as if it's under attack when in fact the Supreme Court ruling didn't ban public prayer. Danno, maybe if you stopped reading so much World Nut Daily and other Right Wing Nut propaganda, you'd stop parroting these stupid, pointless arguments against fictitious enemies.

No one said "prayer was banned", we all know a child may (and often do) pray before a test in the quiet of his conscience or before a meal.

This is evidence of what?.... that we are on par with the Stalins USSR? After all people were allowed to pray then too.

For starters, at this time of the year we are talking about children being taught an inaccurate history of "Thanks Giving".

And the question being "why"?

[Peikko 1,575]

Danno, public figures praying or invoking the name of God doesn't equate to an institutionalized church, but if you think it does, please tell us what church is the official church of the U.S. of A.? Is it the Roman Catholic Church? The United Methodist Church? The Lutheran Church? Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints (LDS)?

YOu are going backwards again Steven,

The Constitution clearly forbids any establishment an official denomination or "Church".

So let me ask you, if a teacher were to have a bible on her desk..... which church does it establish? Catholic, Methodist, Baptist Lutheran?

Again, when a team prays before a game, what Church does it begin to establish? Mormon, Pentecostal, Episcopalian?

Post #10 You keep on and on about public prayer, as if it's under attack when in fact the Supreme Court ruling didn't ban public prayer. Danno, maybe if you stopped reading so much World Nut Daily and other Right Wing Nut propaganda, you'd stop parroting these stupid, pointless arguments against fictitious enemies.

No one said "prayer was banned", we all know a child may (and often do) pray before a test in the quiet of his conscience or before a meal.

This is evidence of what?.... that we are on par with the Stalins USSR? After all people were allowed to pray then too.

For starters, at this time of the year we are talking about children being taught an inaccurate history of "Thanks Giving".

And the question being "why"?

You need to get pills for your paranoia Danno.

[HAL 9000 96]

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Danno, public figures praying or invoking the name of God doesn't equate to an institutionalized church, but if you think it does, please tell us what church is the official church of the U.S. of A.? Is it the Roman Catholic Church? The United Methodist Church? The Lutheran Church? Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints (LDS)?

YOu are going backwards again Steven,

The Constitution clearly forbids any establishment an official denomination or "Church".

So let me ask you, if a teacher were to have a bible on her desk..... which church does it establish? Catholic, Methodist, Baptist Lutheran?

Again, when a team prays before a game, what Church does it begin to establish? Mormon, Pentecostal, Episcopalian?

Post #10 You keep on and on about public prayer, as if it's under attack when in fact the Supreme Court ruling didn't ban public prayer. Danno, maybe if you stopped reading so much World Nut Daily and other Right Wing Nut propaganda, you'd stop parroting these stupid, pointless arguments against fictitious enemies.

No one said "prayer was banned", we all know a child may (and often do) pray before a test in the quiet of his conscience or before a meal.

This is evidence of what?.... that we are on par with the Stalins USSR? After all people were allowed to pray then too.

For starters, at this time of the year we are talking about children being taught an inaccurate history of "Thanks Giving".

And the question being "why"?

You need to get pills for your paranoia Danno.

There are no pills for that...

[scandal 951]

James Buchanan, President of the United States of America.

A Proclamation for a Day of Humiliation, Fasting, & Prayer.

To the People of the United States. A Recommendation.

Numerous appeals have been made to me by pious and patriotic associations and citizens, in view of the present distracted and dangerous condition of our country, to recommend that a day be set apart for Humiliation, Fasting and Prayer throughout the Union.

In compliance with their request and my own sense of duty, I designate Friday, the 4th of January 1861, for this purpose, and recommend that the People assemble on that day, according to their several forms of worship, to keep it as a solemn Fast.

The Union of the States is at the present moment threatened with alarming and immediate danger; panic and distress of a fearful character prevails throughout the land; our laboring population are without employment, and consequently deprived of the mans of earning their bread. Indeed, hope seems to have deserted the minds of men. All classes are in a state of confusion and dismay, and the wisest counsels of our best and purest men are wholly disregarded.

In this the hour of our calamity and peril, to whom shall we resort for relief but to the God of our fathers? His omnipotent arm only can save us from the awful effects of our own crimes and follies -- our own ingratitude and guilt towards our Heavenly Father.

Let us, then, with deep contrition and penitent sorrow, unite in humbling ourselves before the Most High, in confessing our individual and national sins, and in acknowledging the injustice of our punishment. Let us implore Him to remove from our hearts that false pride of opinion which would impel us to persevere in wrong for the sake of consistency, rather than yield a just submission to the unforeseen exigencies by which we are now surrounded. Let us with deep reverence beseech him to restore the friendship and good will which prevailed in former days among the people of the several States; and, above all, to save us from the horrors of civil war and "blood-guiltiness." Let our fervent prayers ascend to His Throne that He would not desert us in this hour of extreme peril, but remember us as he did our fathers in the darkest days of the revolution; and preserve our Constitution and our Union, the work of their hands, for ages yet to come.

An Omnipotent Providence may overrule existing evils for permanent good. He can make the wrath of man to praise Him, and the remainder of wrath he can restrain. -- Let me invoke every individual, in whatever sphere of like he may be placed, to feel a personal responsibility to God and his country for keeping this day holy, and for contributing all in his power to remove our actual and impending calamities.

James Buchanan.

Washington, Dec. 14, 1860.

This speech had nothing to do with Thanksgiving, by the way.

It was given by Buchanan after Lincoln had won the 1860 election, and was due to replace him and to be inaugurated as President in March 1861.

Buchanan feared - correctly - that the nation was about to imminently descend into civil war.

Fearing the sundering of the nation, he appealed to Americans as one of his last acts in office to come together and avoid bloodshed.

Buchanan was a Democrat who took no decisive action in the face of the Dredd Scott decision, and the increasing tensions over the Kansas-Nebraska Act which brought the situation to a boil and precipitated the war.

The fact that he invoked the name of the Almighty should surprise no one - virtually every US President, from Washington to Obama #1 to #44, has professed himself to be a Christian. FDR was a churchgoer, as were Truman, Kennedy, Carter, Clinton. (Carter was a pastor). We've yet to have an atheist or non-Christian president.

[ScratchIt 12]

Haven't you heard - Obama is a Muslim!

It's always OK as long as the "right" God is represented in the Oval Office.