Beware of the smiling lady

[Hopeful_1 0]

Phil, sorry to here about what happened. Be strong, i wish the best for you!

[clueless_in_usa 8]

I am sorry Rob, but just because you traveled to Russia and met her family and had one photo with you and her family means your relationship is any different than us who did not do this?

I do not want to start a fight with you and I congratulate you both. You just can not make such a categorical statement.

We chose not to meet in Russia and met in Ukraine instead. We have plenty of evidence of meeting her family and my family using the modern communication methods available.

Is that any different? One can not make categorical statements.

Obviously my statements are useless until we have the approval. But if we do get this, then will you eat your words?

You can not make any statements about my relationship with my RW as I can yours.

I am sure if you were to see our documentation you would approve of this as a valid relationship.

Yes my fiancee did not do well at the interview. For that I blame myself. But if the additional evidence I have provided gives us the visa, then that is all there is.

I have met their family, just not yet in person. That in itself is not a requirement. The only requirement is that we have a valid and real relationship and can show that.

Do you agree?

I would like to butt into this argument because I think that I am seeing a pattern developing. I study patterns and their corresponding outcomes, so I would like to share my theory, in case it has some truth in it.

My fiancee was approved without showing much evidence (a couple of photos, income statements - including tax transcripts, and proof of my travel to Russia. No emails or chats. Just the phone bill showing my calls). I believe that what helped the most for the questions to be minimal (and the trouble too) was the fact that I was in Russia three times in one year. In fact, the last time I was even inside the embassy, and they knew that (I made sure that they were aware that I was there inquiring about my fiancee's case).

Based on what I have read here, the more evidence you have about being with your fiance(e) in his(her) home country, the less the trouble at interview time. For example, Baron saw her fiancee only once, and it was not in her home country. If I were an CO, that would raise plenty of red flags in my mind.

I know that people's financial situation may prevent them from traveling a few times to his(her) home country, but people should understand that one trip to be with him(her) in person has a lot more weight than 10 kilograms of chat logs.

Feel free to show me contrary evidence, but until I see a different patter developing I will stick to my theory.

[clueless_in_usa 8]

I'm also always going to maintain that guys should pay more attention to WHAT their evidence is showing then HOW MUCH they send -- the old "quality" versus "quantity" argument. The simple point I was trying to make with Lesya's example is that even though she had reams of evidence with her, it turned out not to be necessary because the one piece of evidence she showed (along with her answers to the questions she was asked) was sufficient as proof. Now one GREAT ADVANTAGE that I had here was Lesya herself--- she teaches English at the Uni in Chel so is extremely fluent in the language. Many (frankly, most) fiancees are not that fluent and so are probably going to have to rely a little more on the evidence to "tell the story." But again, guys beginning this process should not think that showing boxes full of chat transcripts is going to be given the same weight as having actually spent days, weeks, even months in person with someone.

Again, I have no doubts about the legitimacy of your relationship with Alla and I wish you nothing but success in getting the visas.... and in all of the VisaJourney that still lies ahead.

Two things I forgot to mention when I wrote about my theory:

1) I should consider myself lucky too, because my communication with my fiancee was always over the phone, reason why I had NO email, NO skype, and/or NO chat logs if they had asked for them. Our only evidence was the phone bill (with minutes we talked each time)

2) My fiancee spoke very little English. Therefore, language was not an issue either, but it certainly helped that I proved that I spoke Russian (phone conversations and other evidence).

I agree (and will keep this first and foremost) with Quality instead of Quantity. We needed to prove our case, and we tried to show the kind of evidence that did it without a doubt .... of course, luck also helps a lot.

[baron555 934]

First, I'd like to publicly apologize to Rob. I didn't want or mean to engage in a circular argument with you. I was a little stressed out and when you wrote your comments, my skin was thin and I took that as a personal attack on our relationship.

I will agree with everyone that more time together should show more proof of a relationship. But one can also argu that it may not. Each relationship is unique.

Alla and I purposefully did not meet together for our reasons and a major part of that is that we both are very adept at using all modern communication means to communicate and felt that personal time together would only be that; nothing new would be learned about who we were or what our wants are in the relationship. I can understand that maybe most people are not so adept at this and so they must fly back and forth. There is nothing wrong with that. I do know that Alla and I communciate more than if we both lived in the same city; we have nothing else to do but communicate.

I fault myself for not sending a more complete package when I front-loaded it and I did not rehearse well enough with Alla including how to handle the little one.

As far as meeting the family I have done that, but yes only using Skype and sending movie files.

We do intend to go back in July of next year for about a month to visit both family and friends.

So let's not let this become another endless you must visit three times or else type of threads....as Rob has pointed out, there is no one way to go about this process.

[sivad 0]

Phil,

So sorry to hear of your delay. I am confident this is a delay, not a major roadblock. Delays are tough, I know firsthand. The evidence they are requesting will be easy to produce, and they will see that you are a committed couple. Thanks for posting this - it is prompting me to shore up and update our evidence.

yes, the lady might have been in a bad mood to begin with,i agree that this is not a major roadblock,and stay strong.we are all with you!

[slim 1,514]

I just got back from sending 10 pounds of documents and photos via FedEx to the Embassy. Hope to get that large box there by Wed.

Yes the lady said, "Even More"! So More is what she will get.

10 lbs. is more, that's for sure!

I even scanned in every little receipt from the various restaurants, shops....even gas stations (located along our vacation travel route here in Texas) just to show the dates, times locations that purchases were made whilst we were together....the boarding passes, and visa stamps corroborate the dates. I know it sounds paranoid, and probably overboard, but I scanned everything from my Moscow visit, and both of her Texas visits. I guess it's better safe than sorry

What happens if she says, "I want to see more?"

It seems to me that so many of you are missing the whole point. While I certainly will agree with the general principle that it's better to bring too much evidence that's never needed then to not have enough --- as has been said before ---it's not about how many pages you print out or how many photos you submit. It's what that evidence demonstrates.

Spot on!

No matter whether you send 10 lbs. or 500 documents or every single receipt from every transaction you've ever had together, if they don't see a "real relationship" then it doesn't matter how much evidence you send. Paint the picture.

[baron555 934]

No matter whether you send 10 lbs. or 500 documents or every single receipt from every transaction you've ever had together, if they don't see a "real relationship" then it doesn't matter how much evidence you send. Paint the picture.

I do agree with you. I inluded another Letter of Intent to Marry & Statement of Relationship. I told them in words about our relationship and guided them in what they will see as they read through the emails, look at the many phone records or the 36 photos I included.

As she was given the stack of emails and the same phone and Skype records and smaller amount of photos at the interview, the lady never looked at them. She just kept saying more, more more.

Having photos of any two folks together or with her family, etc, does not, in and of itself, say anything about the relationship.

Also how can they make any sense of a relationship without both people being there?

This is all very subjective. It seems this same lady has been doing this the entire last week to folks. So there is no parity here and one would only hope the the Manager of the Counsular Section reviews how many approvals or APs a particular officer is handing out. One would only hope that there is an attempt to have a sense of consistency. (That may be too much to ask for!)

[baron555 934]

What happens if she says, "I want to see more?"

If that is the case, and if we are given the time (there is no expiration or deadline on the 221g form she was given), then I will jet on over with extra memory for the camera and we will go everywhere and take millions of photos.

the 10 lbs is only about 1 third of all emails, so I CAN send more of those.

I do have all the Skype calls recorded (use Pamela for Skype) and can have those transcribed and show those conversations.

What else can I provide?

If there is suddenly a time limit above which the two must have been having relations, then that is a whole change in the rules.

[Steve S 2]

It is an imperfect process, by which a CO judges whether a relationship is bona fide. If the petitioner could be present with the recipient, I think they would be able to recognize a true couple on sight. The petitioner could be instructed to be silent for part or all of it so as not to provide the answers. Not to suggest that it should be counted against petitioners who would not make the trip to Moscow. I know they allow couples interviews in some other countries.

[baron555 934]

It is an imperfect process, by which a CO judges whether a relationship is bona fide. If the petitioner could be present with the recipient, I think they would be able to recognize a true couple on sight. The petitioner could be instructed to be silent for part or all of it so as not to provide the answers. Not to suggest that it should be counted against petitioners who would not make the trip to Moscow. I know they allow couples interviews in some other countries.

I understand it is not perfect.

There have been some assumptions made on this woman CO; she has hit many interviewees with the same non-approval and request for more information. As my Alla handed her the documents she requested, this woman did not look at them. So one could make a conclusion that she had already made up her mind for the request for more information; meaning she had done her homework and had made her decision prior to the interview.

If so, then why not use the modern means of communication and request the add'l information prior to the interview?

Maybe it was the way Alla answered, or couldn't answer, the questions. Alla did say that when the lady started talking, she just did not pick up her pronunciation of English and left her a little flustered. Plus the little one was making a fuss. A compassionate person would have offered to allow the interviewee to do whatever was necessary to rectify the situation, especially another woman. Alla tried to have her repeat some questions in Russian but the woman kept saying, No speak English.

So if this is the case then why not let everyone know this is how the interview will be conducted?

Why ask for very small children to be present but not provide a means for them to be occupied? They offer nothing to the interview process.

My auto service center has a nice play center for children while you wait for your car from service.

I am venting but am very confident in our relationship. We both will eventually come together, maybe in spite of the Embassy (rather than with their help).

[Nasturtium 500]

I sent an 8" binder and had another 8" binder compiled of new evidence by the time he went for his interview (which they never looked at, great, that was 16 hours wasted). I sent them a rock and an olive amongst my evidences for our original petition. I sent them a map and corresponding receipt database of CC usage in relation to the house with buffer zones in a nice GIS layered rendering for his removal of conditions, included in the 6" binder I sent (I got a bit more streamlined and held back this time). If you ever want/need to know what MORE you could send, I am there for you. Seriously.

I think the part of the reason we were approved so fast all the time without questions and such is because they were scared I would send more rocks and such.

USCIS is my new remote storage facility.

[slim 1,514]

This is all very subjective.

You nailed it right there!

Maybe it was the way Alla answered, or couldn't answer, the questions. Alla did say that when the lady started talking, she just did not pick up her pronunciation of English and left her a little flustered. Plus the little one was making a fuss.

I've long thought they're biased when folks can't speak or understand English to their "acceptable" level. It's almost as if they say, "well, if you can't understand me, how are you going to understand your fiance or life in America?"

Who knows what really happened. There are a million reasons why it could've or did happen, but no matter what, it did, and it sounds like you're taking the appropriate corrective actions. Frustrating, I'm sure, but then again, sometimes I think they do that just to see if folks will go through with it. "OK, they may be a real couple. Let's give them a 221G just to be sure. If they send in more info, cool. Visa approved. If it seems like they're scrambling and trying to make more stuff up.... DENIED! We'll see how they react."

It's almost as if they have a checklist and if certain things happen (or don't happen) it's an automatic administrative hold. It's like they're doing it to see your response, not because they actually need something more. Hang in there, do what they ask and jump through those hoops. Who knows, maybe that's all they're really looking for!

[Kailey 3]

I truly can't understand how we have guys on this forum who are engaged to Russia women ---- but the guy has never even been to Russia! He's never been to her hometown, never seen how she actually lives, he's never met her family, never met her friends. But he's going to be genuinely surprised when the Embassy questions the sincerity of this relationship. Guys-- you're asking this woman to become your WIFE --- you're going to become a part of her family, her family is going to become a part of yours. MEET THEM AND GET TO KNOW THEM. In the long run, you're gong to have a much happier and stronger marriage if you do... and the family that the two of you create here in the States is going to be a much richer one for it.

Gone to Texas:

--- I personally think you're going WAY overboard on the receipts, etc. But as was said in the beginning --- it's certainly better to have more evidence with you than not enough. But the MAIN thing that you have of value is evidence that you've met her on her home turf.... and you are lucky enough to be able to produce something that very few guys on this forum can produce --- evidence that she's actually met you on yours! THAT'S AWESOME! One simple photo of the two of you in your home (even better if you have a few other family members in the photo as well ) will carry more weight than a billion restaurant and gas station receipts!

I agree with you but will go a bit further (guess i'm going to yelled at but that's my opinion and i think that's a good one).

I would wonder how it is possible to a) for him Not to visit her - B) but even MORE - for HER NOT to visit him at least once.. The only exuse here is that B1/B2 visa is hard to get for women who never been abroad before (i got mine w/out any problems - but it was 2nd american visa, so i guess i was kinda 'trusted').

But one thing is clear for me - if i were an embassy officer if a woman would appear in front of me and all she had would be - some icq chats and phone calls and she would claim they are in love - i would definitely wonder if those people even remotely know what they are doing . Jump into a plane, especially if she has a child.. and just fly 'somewhere out there to Him'.. well.. no wonder why there are so many topics about 'day after tommorrow problems'..

And some guy here said that he has no money for jet to Russia - hmm... I have a good solution for such guys - please marry American women no need to travel far..

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I truly can't understand how we have guys on this forum who are engaged to Russia women ---- but the guy has never even been to Russia! He's never been to her hometown, never seen how she actually lives, he's never met her family, never met her friends. But he's going to be genuinely surprised when the Embassy questions the sincerity of this relationship. Guys-- you're asking this woman to become your WIFE --- you're going to become a part of her family, her family is going to become a part of yours. MEET THEM AND GET TO KNOW THEM. In the long run, you're gong to have a much happier and stronger marriage if you do... and the family that the two of you create here in the States is going to be a much richer one for it.

Gone to Texas:

--- I personally think you're going WAY overboard on the receipts, etc. But as was said in the beginning --- it's certainly better to have more evidence with you than not enough. But the MAIN thing that you have of value is evidence that you've met her on her home turf.... and you are lucky enough to be able to produce something that very few guys on this forum can produce --- evidence that she's actually met you on yours! THAT'S AWESOME! One simple photo of the two of you in your home (even better if you have a few other family members in the photo as well ) will carry more weight than a billion restaurant and gas station receipts!

I agree with you but will go a bit further (guess i'm going to yelled at but that's my opinion and i think that's a good one).

I would wonder how it is possible to a) for him Not to visit her - B) but even MORE - for HER NOT to visit him at least once.. The only exuse here is that B1/B2 visa is hard to get for women who never been abroad before (i got mine w/out any problems - but it was 2nd american visa, so i guess i was kinda 'trusted').

But one thing is clear for me - if i were an embassy officer if a woman would appear in front of me and all she had would be - some icq chats and phone calls and she would claim they are in love - i would definitely wonder if those people even remotely know what they are doing . Jump into a plane, especially if she has a child.. and just fly 'somewhere out there to Him'.. well.. no wonder why there are so many topics about 'day after tommorrow problems'..

And some guy here said that he has no money for jet to Russia - hmm... I have a good solution for such guys - please marry American women no need to travel far..

I will disagree. But I won't yell. The petition requirements are that you meet in person one time within 2 years, not too strict, to be sure. If consulates will arbitrarily determine that is not enough, then lets get things coordinated at least. I understand the need to justify a relationship, but that does not need to be based on visits alone.

Is it wise? I don't know. I don't care. Phil and Alla are grown ups and I trust their decision, so should the consulate. Will they have a successful marriage? I don't know. If they had grown up next door to each other since birth, I do not know if they would have a successful marriage. Marrying an American woman with the same exposure (which could easily and often does happen) is no more wise or foolish. I just do not judge people on that. I mean, I knew Alla (MY Alla, not Phil's Alla) was the one for me within an hour of meeting her quite by accident. The many visits were just for fun and to help her collect documents and such. I wasn't going there to "prove" anything. I wanted to be with her, I could be with her, so I did. It does not make my relationship any better or worse than anyone else's.

if they want to deny on "not sufficient evidence of relationship" that's one thing, but to arbitrarily say any component of a relationship is "not enough" just doesn't make sense for them or US to say.

I have corresponded a lot with Phil, my wife has met his fiancee in person in Moscow. I haven't any doubt in their feelings and I know that both of them have arrived at this after much consideration and that his finacee is in no way just bailing on her life in Moscow, which is not bad at all. She has no NEED to leave Russia and run to Phil in the USA. Of course the CO doesn't know this, but I will not judge him for it. I wish him the best of luck.

GOOD LUCK PHIL and ALLA. You will overcome this as you have the many other obstacles you have faced.

[baron555 934]

I truly can't understand how we have guys on this forum who are engaged to Russia women ---- but the guy has never even been to Russia! He's never been to her hometown, never seen how she actually lives, he's never met her family, never met her friends. But he's going to be genuinely surprised when the Embassy questions the sincerity of this relationship. Guys-- you're asking this woman to become your WIFE --- you're going to become a part of her family, her family is going to become a part of yours. MEET THEM AND GET TO KNOW THEM. In the long run, you're gong to have a much happier and stronger marriage if you do... and the family that the two of you create here in the States is going to be a much richer one for it.

Gone to Texas:

--- I personally think you're going WAY overboard on the receipts, etc. But as was said in the beginning --- it's certainly better to have more evidence with you than not enough. But the MAIN thing that you have of value is evidence that you've met her on her home turf.... and you are lucky enough to be able to produce something that very few guys on this forum can produce --- evidence that she's actually met you on yours! THAT'S AWESOME! One simple photo of the two of you in your home (even better if you have a few other family members in the photo as well ) will carry more weight than a billion restaurant and gas station receipts!

I agree with you but will go a bit further (guess i'm going to yelled at but that's my opinion and i think that's a good one).

I would wonder how it is possible to a) for him Not to visit her - B) but even MORE - for HER NOT to visit him at least once.. The only exuse here is that B1/B2 visa is hard to get for women who never been abroad before (i got mine w/out any problems - but it was 2nd american visa, so i guess i was kinda 'trusted').

But one thing is clear for me - if i were an embassy officer if a woman would appear in front of me and all she had would be - some icq chats and phone calls and she would claim they are in love - i would definitely wonder if those people even remotely know what they are doing . Jump into a plane, especially if she has a child.. and just fly 'somewhere out there to Him'.. well.. no wonder why there are so many topics about 'day after tommorrow problems'..

And some guy here said that he has no money for jet to Russia - hmm... I have a good solution for such guys - please marry American women no need to travel far..

I will disagree. But I won't yell. The petition requirements are that you meet in person one time within 2 years, not too strict, to be sure. If consulates will arbitrarily determine that is not enough, then lets get things coordinated at least. I understand the need to justify a relationship, but that does not need to be based on visits alone.

Is it wise? I don't know. I don't care. Phil and Alla are grown ups and I trust their decision, so should the consulate. Will they have a successful marriage? I don't know. If they had grown up next door to each other since birth, I do not know if they would have a successful marriage. Marrying an American woman with the same exposure (which could easily and often does happen) is no more wise or foolish. I just do not judge people on that. I mean, I knew Alla (MY Alla, not Phil's Alla) was the one for me within an hour of meeting her quite by accident. The many visits were just for fun and to help her collect documents and such. I wasn't going there to "prove" anything. I wanted to be with her, I could be with her, so I did. It does not make my relationship any better or worse than anyone else's.

if they want to deny on "not sufficient evidence of relationship" that's one thing, but to arbitrarily say any component of a relationship is "not enough" just doesn't make sense for them or US to say.

I have corresponded a lot with Phil, my wife has met his fiancee in person in Moscow. I haven't any doubt in their feelings and I know that both of them have arrived at this after much consideration and that his finacee is in no way just bailing on her life in Moscow, which is not bad at all. She has no NEED to leave Russia and run to Phil in the USA. Of course the CO doesn't know this, but I will not judge him for it. I wish him the best of luck.

GOOD LUCK PHIL and ALLA. You will overcome this as you have the many other obstacles you have faced.

Gary, to to this thread and then comment!!!

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=230030