Another idiot with a gun

[Ban Hammer 14,250]

I just cannot see any logical rebuttal on why anyone would want to keep guns unrestricted. The only logical statement that came close was Charles mentioning that a certain demographic, that is most vulnerable, would use them for protection; which is fair enough. What about everyone else? No one in a city should be able to own a gun. That is just common sense.

I also posted facts illustrating the homicide rates by means of firearms, which show a clear correlation between lower homicide rates when guns are controlled. While quite the opposite when guns are not. America's homicide rate is now in the same status as 2nd and 3rd world countries. Is that what some people want America to be classed as? As a 3rd World nation. Do you not realized how embarrassing it is to be ranked like that?

Excluding 3rd world countries, I have never met a group of people who are so adamant against blocking progress and change. That are so insistent of keeping their country down. Be it health care or be it guns.

and that's why i'm glad you're not on the judicial bench either.

the rest is just blah blah blah.

[Peikko 1,575]

............

All I come away from this discussion with is this, I guess - some people don't want to learn. They don't want to admit there might be another side to a coin. They want to think that people like me want to take away their guns. We don't. We want a safer society. It's too bad we can't have a flippin' civilized discussion about it without defenses coming up.

Madame Cleo...I missed ^this post^ before--but this actually sums up my point too; just done so much better.

'civilized discussion without defenses coming up' on either side.

That's it, spot on.

Ah, one of the joys of posting on message boards such as this. There is no answer beyond taking what one can from such discussions and not getting outraged and annoyed by the rest.

[Heracles 417]

Offhand I can think of several really bad areas in the UK that were/are notorious for gang and other crime (a lot of gun related stuff too). Welfare alone isn't the answer - but things could well be worse without ti.

UK has its problems, just as the US does. The US just has it on a larger scale.

The issue in my opinion is a cultural problem, as in attitude. Process of elimination. Considering such a huge disparity in welfare payments and support; and excluding the degree of gangs and crime, why is it that the US, Canada, Australia and the UK have the same issue with it? The US is clearly worse for two reasons: access to guns and much less support provided to them. But that does not explain the other countries where they receive all of the support in the world; including a subsidized and affordable education to almost any college. As well as actual welfare and rent payments to do so. So if it's not money alone, that leaves something else. There comes a point to where personal responsibility has to kick is.

As AJ noted in another thread, people in these countries wouldn't know what being poor is because they have not been to places like India or Africa to see people that don't even have a shoe to fit on their other foot. I mean people in Australia say they are poor yet they receive double to triple the benefits to that of someone here; actually more than someone working minimum wage here. They have not seen that, so in their eyes they have it tough. What until I go back and hear someone suggest that Australia does not look after their poor. I'll freagin laugh in their face.

A vast amount of people in western nations need to travel to places like India or various African countries to wake up. I guarantee it will be a real eye opener. It would be the best investment any western country will ever make. Especially America considering the issues it has.

and that's why i'm glad you're not on the judicial bench either.

the rest is just blah blah blah.

What's bla bla? Or is some Charles smarter than the developed world? I don't think so.

The only argument you have is that it is in the constitution (no sh-t) and that a granny and co needs it for protection.

[lostinblue 1,989]

The vast majority of the gun violence is drug related. Even if the liberal media refuses to report it as such.

[tmma 467]

............

All I come away from this discussion with is this, I guess - some people don't want to learn. They don't want to admit there might be another side to a coin. They want to think that people like me want to take away their guns. We don't. We want a safer society. It's too bad we can't have a flippin' civilized discussion about it without defenses coming up.

Madame Cleo...I missed ^this post^ before--but this actually sums up my point too; just done so much better.

'civilized discussion without defenses coming up' on either side.

That's it, spot on.

Ah, one of the joys of posting on message boards such as this. There is no answer beyond taking what one can from such discussions and not getting outraged and annoyed by the rest.

I don't get outraged much especially not on message boards. Takes too much energy for little result.

edit--Eeeeek--although I will admit to a mild rise in BP over the Libyan bomber release. But that's a whole other subject.

Edited September 9, 2009 by tmma

[Peikko 1,575]

............

All I come away from this discussion with is this, I guess - some people don't want to learn. They don't want to admit there might be another side to a coin. They want to think that people like me want to take away their guns. We don't. We want a safer society. It's too bad we can't have a flippin' civilized discussion about it without defenses coming up.

Madame Cleo...I missed ^this post^ before--but this actually sums up my point too; just done so much better.

'civilized discussion without defenses coming up' on either side.

That's it, spot on.

Ah, one of the joys of posting on message boards such as this. There is no answer beyond taking what one can from such discussions and not getting outraged and annoyed by the rest.

I don't get outraged much especially not on message boards. Takes too much energy for little result.

edit--Eeeeek--although I will admit to a mild rise in BP over the Libyan bomber release. But that's a whole other subject.

Very sensible - however in a way, if one accepts that message boards are what they are, complaining about the quality of debate is perhaps a little silly

Ah, well, the Lockerbie bombing is surrounded by some very, very dark politics and murky investigation - the point I was trying to make there was that actually, the release itself, for the reasons that were given by the Scottish JM were fairly straightforward and not tainted by the murk. Of course you can only look at it that way if you understand and accept that Scottish law is what it is and not the way some people think it should be. The same can not be made for the British PM and his cohorts but that is quite definitely OT

[zqt3344 21]

Guns are what keep this country strong and safe RJ! Without them the Obama administration would have already taken us over in the name of communism or redistribution of wealth or socialism! Everyone should own a gun, it keeps the other person honest!

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/06/louisi...ings/index.html

(CNN) -- A man shot his estranged wife to death, along with their son and grandson, before turning the gun on himself as police closed in, authorities in Livingston Parish, Louisiana, said Sunday.

Police say Dennis Carter Sr. shot four family members, three fatally, before turning the gun on himself.

Dennis Carter Sr., 50, also shot and critically injured his pregnant daughter-in-law, the parish sheriff's office said in a statement. The shootings occurred Saturday night in the town of Holden, Louisiana.

Authorities were dispatched to a report of shots fired at a home about 10:40 p.m. Upon arrival, they found three people dead and the fourth -- Amber Carter, 25 -- in critical condition, the statement said.

Those killed were Dennis Carter Jr., 26, Amber Carter's husband; their son Mason Carter, 2; and 49-year-old Donna Carter, mother of Dennis Carter Jr. and estranged wife of Dennis Carter Sr., police said. All had been shot to death. A 16-month-old child at the home was unharmed, authorities said.

Deputies believe Amber Carter attempted to escape from the gunman by jumping from a second-story window, holding Mason in her arms, the statement said, but the boy did not survive his gunshot wounds.

Amber Carter had several bullet wounds, said Perry Rushing, chief of operations for the sheriff's office, and authorities believe the gunman shot her in the back as she was attempting to get out the window while holding the child. She also may have been shot again after she got outside the home, Rushing told CNN.

Amber Carter was flown to a Baton Rouge, Louisiana, hospital, and later transferred to New Orleans, Rushing said. She was in critical condition as of Sunday morning.

A neighbor in the area told deputies that he heard a gunshot and saw Carter Sr. walking to a car, a red El Camino, with a gun in his hand, the sheriff's statement said.

At 11:30 p.m., a police officer in the adjacent town of Livingston saw the vehicle entering Interstate 12 heading eastbound, the statement said. A Livingston Parish sheriff's deputy followed the car and attempted to stop it. "However, the suspect shot himself with a handgun, in plain view of the officers, as the vehicle veered off the shoulder of the interstate near the Holden exit," police said.

Records from the Livingston Parish Detention Center show that Dennis Carter Sr., of Hammond, Louisiana, had been jailed "on three separate occasions in 2009 alone, on three separate charges of violation of a protective order and one charge of aggravated assault (domestic)," the sheriff's office said.

"At this time, there do not appear to be any other suspects or victims in this ongoing investigation," police said.

Holden is about 35 miles east of Baton Rouge.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Offhand I can think of several really bad areas in the UK that were/are notorious for gang and other crime (a lot of gun related stuff too). Welfare alone isn't the answer - but things could well be worse without ti.

UK has its problems, just as the US does. The US just has it on a larger scale.

The issue in my opinion is a cultural problem, as in attitude. Process of elimination. Considering such a huge disparity in welfare payments and support; and excluding the degree of gangs and crime, why is it that the US, Canada, Australia and the UK have the same issue with it? The US is clearly worse for two reasons: access to guns and much less support provided to them. But that does not explain the other countries where they receive all of the support in the world; including a subsidized and affordable education to almost any college. As well as actual welfare and rent payments to do so. So if it's not money alone, that leaves something else. There comes a point to where personal responsibility has to kick is.

As AJ noted in another thread, people in these countries wouldn't know what being poor is because they have not been to places like India or Africa to see people that don't even have a shoe to fit on their other foot. I mean people in Australia say they are poor yet they receive double to triple the benefits to that of someone here; actually more than someone working minimum wage here. They have not seen that, so in their eyes they have it tough. What until I go back and hear someone suggest that Australia does not look after their poor. I'll freagin laugh in their face.

A vast amount of people in western nations need to travel to places like India or various African countries to wake up. I guarantee it will be a real eye opener. It would be the best investment any western country will ever make. Especially America considering the issues it has.

Yes people have negative attitudes - but those attitudes don't exist or develop in a vacuum; nor can they be separated from the environment in which those people live and all the interrelated factors that serve to define that environment.

Long story short - there aren't any easy quick fix solutions to these problems, despite what you might think.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Some people really do want to live in the worlds created by the Hollywood blockbusters it seems. There is something grotesque about dress up with weaponry in my opinion.

There mail order catalogs here where you can buy umbrellas with swords concealed inside them. Also those flick out batons the police have.

I don't understand why anyone would want something like that.

[Heracles 417]

Offhand I can think of several really bad areas in the UK that were/are notorious for gang and other crime (a lot of gun related stuff too). Welfare alone isn't the answer - but things could well be worse without ti.

UK has its problems, just as the US does. The US just has it on a larger scale.

The issue in my opinion is a cultural problem, as in attitude. Process of elimination. Considering such a huge disparity in welfare payments and support; and excluding the degree of gangs and crime, why is it that the US, Canada, Australia and the UK have the same issue with it? The US is clearly worse for two reasons: access to guns and much less support provided to them. But that does not explain the other countries where they receive all of the support in the world; including a subsidized and affordable education to almost any college. As well as actual welfare and rent payments to do so. So if it's not money alone, that leaves something else. There comes a point to where personal responsibility has to kick is.

As AJ noted in another thread, people in these countries wouldn't know what being poor is because they have not been to places like India or Africa to see people that don't even have a shoe to fit on their other foot. I mean people in Australia say they are poor yet they receive double to triple the benefits to that of someone here; actually more than someone working minimum wage here. They have not seen that, so in their eyes they have it tough. What until I go back and hear someone suggest that Australia does not look after their poor. I'll freagin laugh in their face.

A vast amount of people in western nations need to travel to places like India or various African countries to wake up. I guarantee it will be a real eye opener. It would be the best investment any western country will ever make. Especially America considering the issues it has.

Yes people have negative attitudes - but those attitudes don't exist or develop in a vacuum; nor can they be separated from the environment in which those people live and all the interrelated factors that serve to define that environment.

Long story short - there aren't any easy quick fix solutions to these problems, despite what you might think.

Attitude and culture is the hardest thing to break or modify. Unfortunately, by a number of people, ghetto is now recognized as being cool.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Changing attitudes isn't as easy as you might think.

[natty bumppo 297]

Some people really do want to live in the worlds created by the Hollywood blockbusters it seems. There is something grotesque about dress up with weaponry in my opinion.

There mail order catalogs here where you can buy umbrellas with swords concealed inside them. Also those flick out batons the police have.

I don't understand why anyone would want something like that.

why do you hate swordfish?

or a garden hose and sand .... cricket bat ... chef knife ...

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Why do you think I hate them?

[Heracles 417]

Changing attitudes isn't as easy as you might think.

There is the colonial British and Spanish method. I prefer the Spanish myself.

[natty bumppo 297]

Why do you think I hate them?

don't you have a thing against sword ownership?