Catholic wedding and K1

[Stephen + Elisha 92]

I honestly don't understand the preachiness here.

The K-1 is for couples who are legally free to marry. In countries where religious wedding ceremonies confer no legal effect, the couple can have their religious wedding and still be legally free to marry and thus eligible for the K-1. Consulates in some of these countries advise K-1 applicants that this is okay. If it's okay with the consulate, why do you have a problem with it?

No one's advocating lying to consular officers. When a consular officer asks if you are "married," the question is being asked in a strict legal sense. If you are not legally married, the answer to the question is "no"—whether or not you've received the sacrament. Render unto Caesar, buddy.

Yo, Caesar! What if the couple just answered using the truth, "Yes we are married, but it is not legal."

What would be wrong with that answer? It is the real truth. Maybe this answer would get you nervous? Why would a couple want to have a non-legal wedding and then use the K-1 visa? Maybe it is because it is the quickest way to get together, rather than the more appropriate CR-1 or K-3? Maybe it is against the TOS of this site to give such advice?

Anyway, luckily this OP couple has opted for the safe route and not trying a find a way around the K-1 requirements based on a technicality.

Why volunteer information that is immaterial? The material fact is legal freedom to marry. If you are not legally married, then as far as the law is concerned, you are not married and the answer to the question is no.

If you believe a TOS violation has occurred, you are welcome to report the offending post. But let me help you out:

• Have I advocated violating immigration laws? No. I have cited law and policy stating that the criteria for eligibility for a K-1 visa is "legally free to marry." I have argued that a wedding ceremony that does not confer legal marriage status on the couple is immaterial to K-1 eligibility. In support of my interpretation, I have put forth the fact that consulates in countries where religious weddings are not legally recognized have advised K-1 applicants that such a ceremony does not impact eligibility for the K-1.
• Have I advocated lying to immigration or consular officers, or concealing/misrepresenting material facts to them? No. Once again, according to law, the material fact in question is legal freedom to marry. I have established that a couple who marry in a religious ceremony in countries where such ceremonies carry no legal recognition are legally free to marry. Beyond that, I simply advocate not volunteering information that is immaterial. The guides on this site offer the same advice (see the guide on visiting the US while a K-1 petition is being processed). I have not advocated, and do not advocate, lying if someone is directly asked whether they have had a wedding ceremony. I simply submit that the questions asked by immigration and consular officials are predicated upon ascertaining legal freedom to marry.

Considering that you haven't offered any evidence in support of your argument against my interpretation, I suspect that your implication that I've violated the TOS is a case of argumentum ad baculum—threatening your opponent so he'll shut up.

In any case, my position is clear, and the OP has indicated that she considers the question answered. But I'd suggest that if you disagree with someone's position here or anywhere, you produce facts to back up your argument, and not resort to unfounded accusations and innuendo.

[baron555 934]

No need to be so defensive. I just restate that if a couple nonlegally marries and then goes to the interview and states only that they are not married, is a sort of misrepresentation.

I challenge any couple's motives in doing this under the K-1 process. If they were so bent on marrying, then there are other visas that allow this.

I don't think it is in our best interests to help them circumvent the intent, as I see it, and you obviously see it otherwise, the intent of the rules of a particular visa.

I only challenge that if they are trying to quicken the process by warping a particular visa requirements, is not what we ought to suggest to them as a valid path.

[baron555 934]

[

If you believe a TOS violation has occurred, you are welcome to report the offending post. But let me help you out:

• Have I advocated violating immigration laws? No. I have cited law and policy stating that the criteria for eligibility for a K-1 visa is "legally free to marry." I have argued that a wedding ceremony that does not confer legal marriage status on the couple is immaterial to K-1 eligibility. In support of my interpretation, I have put forth the fact that consulates in countries where religious weddings are not legally recognized have advised K-1 applicants that such a ceremony does not impact eligibility for the K-1.

  You have admitted that is it consulate specific. So your advice, in the public forum may be unwise for some

• Have I advocated lying to immigration or consular officers, or concealing/misrepresenting material facts to them? No. Once again, according to law, the material fact in question is legal freedom to marry. I have established that a couple who marry in a religious ceremony in countries where such ceremonies carry no legal recognition are legally free to marry. Beyond that, I simply advocate not volunteering information that is immaterial. The guides on this site offer the same advice (see the guide on visiting the US while a K-1 petition is being processed). I have not advocated, and do not advocate, lying if someone is directly asked whether they have had a wedding ceremony. I simply submit that the questions asked by immigration and consular officials are predicated upon ascertaining legal freedom to marry.

  No you have not advocated lying to consulate officers but you have made a stance in the nature of your suggested response. Would you advocate the couple state, "Yes we are married (true fact based on religion) but we are not legally married" Would you suggest this language, which would be true? And why would you not suggest this dialogue?

Considering that you haven't offered any evidence in support of your argument against my interpretation,

It doesn't matter what I state. It matters what the Embassy officer thinks. Understand? You need to let each couple know what the possible consequences are and you do not. That is a disservice, IMHO.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

To add some clarification to the issue:

K-1 fiance visas are for those who are not legally married. The definition of 'legal' may vary from country to country. Some countries recognize only a civil marriage as being legal. Some recognize the religious ceremony as being legal. Some recognize both together as being legal. It is up to the Consulate of the countries involved to determine what is or is not a legal marriage in that country. Unfortunately, some of the Consulate staff are not as knowledgeable as they should be and there have definitely been instances on VJ where members have had a religious ceremony that is not considered legal in their country, but the Consulate has determined that they are married and denied the K-1 Visa. The individuals have had to go and have a legal marriage in that country and re-apply for a spousal visa. Interpretation is everything with Immigration and you don't want to leave anything open to 'speculative' interpretation. Ideally, a marriage ceremony recognized as legal in the foreign country is recognized as legal for US immigration purposes; a marriage ceremony that is not recognized as legal in the foreign country is not recognized as legal for US immigration purposes - HOWEVER - that does not always happen and some US immigration officials decide that if it looks like a wedding, it is a wedding.

So, this is why there appears to be such a conflict of information given in the answers here. If you have a religious ceremony that is not legally recognized as married, then you are not married and you can truthfully answer you are not married. Due to the incomplete understanding of local customs by DOS officials (Consulate staff) people are advised not to mention a religious, non-legally binding ceremony as it appears to present conflicting information. The important thing to remember is if the marriage ceremony is legally binding in the country in which it takes place, it is legally binding in the US and the K-1 is not the right visa. If the marriage ceremony is not legally binding in the country in which it takes place, then the applicants are still not married in the eyes of US immigration and the K-1 is a valid visa. You just don't want to confuse the immigration officials who are often looking for any viable reason they can find to deny the visa by giving them information that may make them doubt the non-legal nature of a marriage ceremony.

Edited September 10, 2009 by Kathryn41

[Stephen + Elisha 92]

Thanks Kathryn. I think you've summed it up perfectly.

Edited September 10, 2009 by Stephen + Elisha

[baron555 934]

Thanks Kathryn. I think you've summed it up perfectly.

OK, I will stop. Obviously there is very much a country/consulate specific criteria that must be understood. You never mentioned that in your first posts. And you do not mention that the consulate officers may have a different understanding of the laws of the country they are in. You did not warn the couples about this potential difficulty. That was the disservice. I stand down.

[Stephen + Elisha 92]

OK, I will stop. Obviously there is very much a country/consulate specific criteria that must be understood. You never mentioned that in your first posts. And you do not mention that the consulate officers may have a different understanding of the laws of the country they are in. You did not warn the couples about this potential difficulty. That was the disservice. I stand down.

I consistently stated that my comments applied only to countries where religious ceremonies have no legal effect.

You have insisted throughout this thread that not mentioning a religious ceremony is misrepresentation, even if the ceremony was not legally binding. That was false and a disservice.

Once again, I believe that kathryn has done a great service: she presented a very balanced overview of the issue. It ought to be stickied somewhere or turned into a guide.

Edited September 10, 2009 by Stephen + Elisha

[lucyrich 20]

In immigration matters, the intending immigrant always has the burden of proof. It's up to you to prove you're not married in order to receive a K-1 visa, or to enter on one. If there's ambiguity about the issue, you lose. The standard of proof is "via a preponderance of the evidence". That standard is fairly easy to meet as long as no evidence ever comes up to indicate that you might be married. But if evidence comes up to indicate you're married, you've got to counter it with more convincing evidence that indicates you're NOT married.

It's not just the issuing official in the consulate who must be convinced you're not married. It's also the CBP inspector at the port of entry. Note that, while the consular officials may be somewhat familiar with local laws (or maybe not), the CPB inspectors have to deal with people coming here from every country of the world. There's no way each CBP official is an expert in all of the possible local laws of every jurisdiction. The CBP officials don't have time to do research. If they think there's evidence you're married, then they are likely to turn you around and send you home to get the right kind of visa for a married couple. They deal with lots of people every day and don't have time to do research. You don't get to appeal their decision.

If wedding photos are in your luggage, or if you're wearing a wedding ring at the POE, there could be a problem.

Furthermore, note that the game isn't over when you enter the country. You'll have to go through adjustment of status and removal of conditions. At these phases, you may want to show wedding photos as evidence of the bona fide nature of your relationship. But if the wedding photos were from outside the US, or were taken before the date you entered the US, you may have a hard time explaining the discrepancy. Again, at AOS and removal of conditions, you will be dealing with someone who deals with people from all over the world, so you can't assume they'll be familiar with what does or doesn't constitute a legally binding marriage in the country where you had that church ceremony. If it looks like it might have been a wedding, you've got problems.

So while it's certainly not a violation of the law to have a non-binding ceremony before entering on a K-1, it nevertheless may cause you some serious headaches for practical reasons. When push comes to shove, how do you come up with documentary proof that you never registered the marriage? If evidence of the ceremony comes up, it'll be up to you to provide this proof.

It's safest to always keep your marital status clear and unambiguous. Don't have anything that looks like a ceremony until you're ready to have a legally binding full-blown marriage. If you're going the K-1 route, that means wait until after you've entered the US.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Well said.

[ThomLin 0]

Thanks everybody!!! for take your time to read my question, for all your comments, advices, opinions, ideas...

Stephen you are such a great friend and I love you for being so sweet and supportive.

Kathryn, thanks for your help and share your knowledge with us and be an impartial manager of this.

I love VJ!!!!

Thanks VJ family and God bless you!

Linda

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Offensive post has been removed.

[ThomLin 0]

Offensive post has been removed.

mmmm? did I lost something on here? did someone disrespec here?

Linda

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Nothing to worry about- someone was trying to be 'smart' and failed.

[ThomLin 0]

Nothing to worry about- someone was trying to be 'smart' and failed.

Thanks so much!!!

Muchas gracias!!!

Linda

[MrsBocanegra 3]

Linda,

I know that a Catholic wedding in Mexico is not considered legal, but I personally would not risk it. There is already enough to deal with especially with your case. I filed a K-1 petition for my SO and we plan on having a religious ceremony on our one year anniversary as previously suggested. I noticed you have Mexico City as the consulate, but all K-1 petitions are done at Ciudad Juarez. My SO lives in Queretaro and Mexico City would be much more convenient, but no such luck. You should really check out the Juarez Consulate thread there is a lot of good information there.

Andrea