Freedom VS. Democracy

[spookyturtle 9,466]

[

Your history only goes back to your birth! Go back a little further to the founding of your country! Do you recognize the players? Quit thinking about yourself and think about all! Please listen closely! This is what our country was founded on and it wasnt founded on YOU!

And thank God it wasn't founded on mindless twits.

[NickD 203]

Ironically our corporations and religions are dictatorships. What concerns me the most is using safety, the way GWB was going, thought he was going to lock us all up in a padded cell so we would be safe.

If our freedom was judged with the IRS and the tax assessor, we don't have any freedom at all. Only true freedom in this country is having lots of cash.

If I look back at my life, from the time I was born, was made to go to pre-school, school, then drafted, was almost 25 years of age before I was actually free to determine where I wanted to live. In my corporate days, was told what to wear, and where to go, and what time to be there. When I purchased my first home, was told it would be taken away if I didn't pay the taxes on it. When times got rough, couldn't even sell my home to move someplace else, but could have taken a major loss, what in the hell am I working for? Found I didn't have any freedom at all in whom I could marry with the USCIS and when, but it was demanded upon me to fight for freedom. Who's freedom? Sure in the hell wasn't my own. I am free to either vote republican or democrat like there is any difference. And can b!tch not that it makes any difference.

So how as been your life?

[Tahoma 2,298]

I love how democrat devisevness works! You ppl that buy it are fools! You sit back and complain about rich ppl all the while hopin you can be like them. Its there for the taking, just get out there and get it! Dont let the pussys of life scramble your dreams!

Dems just say "I cant" Your bein put down like a stray dog by this scumbag president, he wants you to be a victim that way he can profess to take care of you! Get up off your takin ####### and make your life!

Theres millions of dollars floatin out there, go get some! ** man what you doin beggin for scraps? You dont need no fvckin hand-outs! GEEEEEEEZ!

You sound like a broken record. The countries a mess because of your hero's. Grow up and get a clue.

Victimhood?

Let's talk about this intelligently, I'm here, who are you going to bring to help you?

Your history only goes back to your birth! Go back a little further to the founding of your country! Do you recognize the players? Quit thinking about yourself and think about all! Please listen closely! This is what our country was founded on and it wasnt founded on YOU!

Let me get this straight. You used a clip, from a work of fiction to justify your point? Seriously?

He had a point? I'd be surprised if he even knew what thread he's on.

[mRx 16]

Why is our money not backed by something of value?

It used to be, but working that way is not particularly efficient, at least not with our modern system.Our modern system was developed to help prevent bank collapses due to bank runs. As well as helping capital move more freely from creditors to debtors and back.

Why is it not efficient, Dan? The term 'money' is merely used to denote that a particular good is a general medium of exchange. Gold, silver, and other precious commodities arose as these mediums of exchange through centuries of barter. Paper money originated as gold warehouse receipts, making it easier for traders to make exchanges without actually having gold in-hand, instead they traded their titles to gold. The system of working for and exchanging something of genuine value is the most efficient method ever developed by human ingenuity.

Bank runs were not caused by a fault of specie-backed currency, rather by the wild inflation of the '20's, and the issuing of more gold receipts than actual gold held. This artificially overvalued our currency, which chased goods and services overseas, which began depleting the over-extended banks gold reserves. Once the banks tightened their belts, that's when people got nervous and wanted to withdrawal their gold.

Why is there no oversight of US coffers?

There is, except its susceptible to political pressure. Those responsible for oversight are human too, and probably have their own vested interests in the market. Which will result in biased decisions.

Of course they have their own vested interests, and are humans just as all of us. They are no less sucesptible to the laws of praxeology than we are. Which is why it is foolhardy to give anyone the power to control over another.

[The_Dude 1,142]

I am surprised that LS liked it, it goes against most of the things he purports to believe in.

Libertarians are scary. You should just ignore them.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, we're taking over now

[fozzie 41]

I love how democrat devisevness works! You ppl that buy it are fools! You sit back and complain about rich ppl all the while hopin you can be like them. Its there for the taking, just get out there and get it! Dont let the pussys of life scramble your dreams!

Dems just say "I cant" Your bein put down like a stray dog by this scumbag president, he wants you to be a victim that way he can profess to take care of you! Get up off your takin ####### and make your life!

Theres millions of dollars floatin out there, go get some! ** man what you doin beggin for scraps? You dont need no fvckin hand-outs! GEEEEEEEZ!

At what point did all republicans become wealthy or seek wealth and all Democrats the opposite? I think you are confused about why people choose political affiliations.

If you are right consider this. Would you agree that most conservative christians are republicans? If so would you also agree that they would know about the seven deadly sins and abhor those who partake in them? Would you then agree that avarice and gluttony are included in said deadly sins? If all these points are true and the pursuit of personal wealth is a defining characteristic of republicans then are you all hypocrites?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

That means ending confiscation of property without trial, secret arrests, imprisonment without conviction, and torture of prisoners. It means abolishing sovereign-immunity laws which exempt government agents from legal responsibility when they kidnap, steal, torture and murder.

It means creating truly independent citizens' grand juries with the power to investigate, and indict corrupt government officials and police.

And it means ceasing government spying on its own citizens and ending foreign invasions to impose "democracy" by force.

........

I agree with that.

But this part...

To have a free and peaceful world, we must create societies in which the inalienable rights of the individual are again respected, and the powers of government are strictly limited.

I agree in principle, but in tangible terms, you could ask a hundred different Americans to give examples and you'd get a wide range of what that means. For one, there is government, the elected officials and those appointed into positions of authority, and there is government, functioning agencies that carry out the will of the people (public schools, police and fire, roads, etc.). Does the size of a public school's budget equate to a more power to government? IMO, that's a stretch. Public schools have a specific role and function regardless of their monetary budget.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Mister Fancypants

[mRx 16]

That means ending confiscation of property without trial, secret arrests, imprisonment without conviction, and torture of prisoners. It means abolishing sovereign-immunity laws which exempt government agents from legal responsibility when they kidnap, steal, torture and murder.

It means creating truly independent citizens' grand juries with the power to investigate, and indict corrupt government officials and police.

And it means ceasing government spying on its own citizens and ending foreign invasions to impose "democracy" by force.

........

I agree with that.

But this part...

To have a free and peaceful world, we must create societies in which the inalienable rights of the individual are again respected, and the powers of government are strictly limited.

I agree in principle, but in tangible terms, you could ask a hundred different Americans to give examples and you'd get a wide range of what that means. For one, there is government, the elected officials and those appointed into positions of authority, and there is government, functioning agencies that carry out the will of the people (public schools, police and fire, roads, etc.). Does the size of a public school's budget equate to a more power to government? IMO, that's a stretch. Public schools have a specific role and function regardless of their monetary budget.

Steven, the point of going back to the roots of a Republic or Confederation, is that it doesn't matter what a hundred different Americans want or would like in a government. Everyone is considered equal under the law, with equal individual rights. That would mean no more socially engineered laws such as "equal" opportunity employment, or affirmative action. These in no way bring about equality, they are rights for groups, and groups are intangible entities that are not entitled to rights.

In a government-limited society, things currently run by the government would be returned to the people. This includes schools, roadways, and other inefficiently ran programs. This by no way means that these things would be auctioned off by "connected" politicians to their favored businesses, as in the GOP's definition of privatization. That rests on the assumption that our schools, roads, and properties are owned by the government, which is false. They simply need to be returned to the people.

I know the idea sounds utopian and out-of-reach, but it's really not. Believe it or not, there are honest politicians out there, who try to push legislation to limit their own powers.

[Peikko 1,575]

What does 'returned to the people' mean, in the case of, say schools, exactly?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

That means ending confiscation of property without trial, secret arrests, imprisonment without conviction, and torture of prisoners. It means abolishing sovereign-immunity laws which exempt government agents from legal responsibility when they kidnap, steal, torture and murder.

It means creating truly independent citizens' grand juries with the power to investigate, and indict corrupt government officials and police.

And it means ceasing government spying on its own citizens and ending foreign invasions to impose "democracy" by force.

........

I agree with that.

But this part...

To have a free and peaceful world, we must create societies in which the inalienable rights of the individual are again respected, and the powers of government are strictly limited.

I agree in principle, but in tangible terms, you could ask a hundred different Americans to give examples and you'd get a wide range of what that means. For one, there is government, the elected officials and those appointed into positions of authority, and there is government, functioning agencies that carry out the will of the people (public schools, police and fire, roads, etc.). Does the size of a public school's budget equate to a more power to government? IMO, that's a stretch. Public schools have a specific role and function regardless of their monetary budget.

Steven, the point of going back to the roots of a Republic or Confederation, is that it doesn't matter what a hundred different Americans want or would like in a government. Everyone is considered equal under the law, with equal individual rights. That would mean no more socially engineered laws such as "equal" opportunity employment, or affirmative action. These in no way bring about equality, they are rights for groups, and groups are intangible entities that are not entitled to rights.

In a government-limited society, things currently run by the government would be returned to the people. This includes schools, roadways, and other inefficiently ran programs. This by no way means that these things would be auctioned off by "connected" politicians to their favored businesses, as in the GOP's definition of privatization. That rests on the assumption that our schools, roads, and properties are owned by the government, which is false. They simply need to be returned to the people.

I know the idea sounds utopian and out-of-reach, but it's really not. Believe it or not, there are honest politicians out there, who try to push legislation to limit their own powers.

Well, I'd like to know, in tangible detail, how society can function without a coexistence of both individual liberty and democratic ideals?

Imagine on a small scale - everyone you know on a daily basis. Imagine if all of you were your own entrepreneurs representing a truly free market, with no outside authority - nothing governing....can you imagine the type of behavior would take place in terms of transactions and social contracts? I would say the Black Market is probably the best real life example of what happens.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It would be a form of anarchy, presumably.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

I love how democrat devisevness works! You ppl that buy it are fools! You sit back and complain about rich ppl all the while hopin you can be like them. Its there for the taking, just get out there and get it! Dont let the pussys of life scramble your dreams!

Dems just say "I cant" Your bein put down like a stray dog by this scumbag president, he wants you to be a victim that way he can profess to take care of you! Get up off your takin ####### and make your life!

Theres millions of dollars floatin out there, go get some! ** man what you doin beggin for scraps? You dont need no fvckin hand-outs! GEEEEEEEZ!

You sound like a broken record. The countries a mess because of your hero's. Grow up and get a clue.

Victimhood?

Let's talk about this intelligently, I'm here, who are you going to bring to help you?

Your history only goes back to your birth! Go back a little further to the founding of your country! Do you recognize the players? Quit thinking about yourself and think about all! Please listen closely! This is what our country was founded on and it wasnt founded on YOU!

Let me get this straight. You used a clip, from a work of fiction to justify your point? Seriously?

He had a point? I'd be surprised if he even knew what thread he's on.

How true. All kidding aside, that is a good miniseries.

Edited March 13, 2009 by spookyturtle

[spookyturtle 9,466]

If you are right consider this. Would you agree that most conservative christians are republicans? If so would you also agree that they would know about the seven deadly sins and abhor those who partake in them? Would you then agree that avarice and gluttony are included in said deadly sins? If all these points are true and the pursuit of personal wealth is a defining characteristic of republicans then are you all hypocrites?

He's just confused period.

[mRx 16]

That means ending confiscation of property without trial, secret arrests, imprisonment without conviction, and torture of prisoners. It means abolishing sovereign-immunity laws which exempt government agents from legal responsibility when they kidnap, steal, torture and murder.

It means creating truly independent citizens' grand juries with the power to investigate, and indict corrupt government officials and police.

And it means ceasing government spying on its own citizens and ending foreign invasions to impose "democracy" by force.

........

I agree with that.

But this part...

To have a free and peaceful world, we must create societies in which the inalienable rights of the individual are again respected, and the powers of government are strictly limited.

I agree in principle, but in tangible terms, you could ask a hundred different Americans to give examples and you'd get a wide range of what that means. For one, there is government, the elected officials and those appointed into positions of authority, and there is government, functioning agencies that carry out the will of the people (public schools, police and fire, roads, etc.). Does the size of a public school's budget equate to a more power to government? IMO, that's a stretch. Public schools have a specific role and function regardless of their monetary budget.

Steven, the point of going back to the roots of a Republic or Confederation, is that it doesn't matter what a hundred different Americans want or would like in a government. Everyone is considered equal under the law, with equal individual rights. That would mean no more socially engineered laws such as "equal" opportunity employment, or affirmative action. These in no way bring about equality, they are rights for groups, and groups are intangible entities that are not entitled to rights.

In a government-limited society, things currently run by the government would be returned to the people. This includes schools, roadways, and other inefficiently ran programs. This by no way means that these things would be auctioned off by "connected" politicians to their favored businesses, as in the GOP's definition of privatization. That rests on the assumption that our schools, roads, and properties are owned by the government, which is false. They simply need to be returned to the people.

I know the idea sounds utopian and out-of-reach, but it's really not. Believe it or not, there are honest politicians out there, who try to push legislation to limit their own powers.

Well, I'd like to know, in tangible detail, how society can function without a coexistence of both individual liberty and democratic ideals?

Imagine on a small scale - everyone you know on a daily basis. Imagine if all of you were your own entrepreneurs representing a truly free market, with no outside authority - nothing governing....can you imagine the type of behavior would take place in terms of transactions and social contracts? I would say the Black Market is probably the best real life example of what happens.

Democratic idealism doesn't coexist well at all with individual liberty. Democracy has nothing to do with freedom. It just follows that the majority's wishes will be fulfilled. The majority considered drug usage to be immoral and wrong, so regardless of what any one individual personally felt about it, the choice to use such things was made for them by the majority. They lost the freedom to make such a choice.

I don't know where you envisioned a free-market to be something of a black market. You have to realize that every decision is voluntary in a market economy. Sellers don't become wealthy by making products that are dangerous, deceptive, or low quality. The fact that free competition exists unequivocally disproves that a market would lean towards a deceptiveness or black market.

Think about it; how many times have you seen something that was absolute garbage and was faced with free competition actually succeed in the market? Look at Sega. The Dreamcast was a worthless piece of #######. Sales of Nintendo and Playstation were favored, and Sega went down... Free competition.

I really don't know how I can be any more tangible than I already am trying to be.

[MsMariah 0]

Think about it; how many times have you seen something that was absolute garbage and was faced with free competition actually succeed in the market? Look at Sega. The Dreamcast was a worthless piece of #######. Sales of Nintendo and Playstation were favored, and Sega went down... Free competition.

I really don't know how I can be any more tangible than I already am trying to be.

How about cigarettes, how about deadly pharmaceuticals you see time and again how they get put out, hyped up and then we come to find it hurts more than it helps? There are so many products that did well but end up being hype or worse, addictive and/or irreversibly damaging. I suppose free market corporations having all the money, advertising and investment gurus, AND more rights than individuals gives them the right to deceive and cheat us poor gullible sheep er I mean masses? Lets get the FDA stamp of approval! We have no mad cows here! yum yum