Warning about naturalization ceremony

[Captain Oates 910]

You realize that you are responding to a post that appeared in May 2009 - 15 months ago? Why bring this up now?

Thread reopened today and not by me - but I was subscribed so it popped up in my email today.

Masterpiece says he wants to be aggressive but I don't so:

[NickD 202]

If they were to put oath ceremonies to a vote, my vote would be for same as interview oath ceremonies.

Your IO went through the N-400 with you, verified all of your required evidence, gave you he civics and English test, have you read the oath aloud and sign it in his/her presence. Have the supervisor come in and take a couple of minutes to check over your application and evidence and sign it off. But I think your IO is being approved more than you are in that everything was done right. Give you your certificate, they have your photos, and send you on your way.

One improvement would be to combine the USCIS with the DOS, most of their functions are redundant, in that way, they can also hand you a US passport at the same time. And send you away with that as well.

[Captain Oates 910]

You realize that you are responding to a post that appeared in May 2009 - 15 months ago? Why bring this up now?

Also - making insulting statements about other posters is a violation of the Terms of Service for Visa Journey so tone down the aggressive posturing or future posts will be removed.

Hi Kathryn

you quote Masterpiece but just to clarify - do you mean me or him ?

thanks

alan

[Captain Oates 910]

If they were to put oath ceremonies to a vote, my vote would be for same as interview oath ceremonies.

Your IO went through the N-400 with you, verified all of your required evidence, gave you he civics and English test, have you read the oath aloud and sign it in his/her presence. Have the supervisor come in and take a couple of minutes to check over your application and evidence and sign it off. But I think your IO is being approved more than you are in that everything was done right. Give you your certificate, they have your photos, and send you on your way.

One improvement would be to combine the USCIS with the DOS, most of their functions are redundant, in that way, they can also hand you a US passport at the same time. And send you away with that as well.

That's a brilliant idea but you know how these gov depts work - so they will never do that.

Same with paying bills in the GC process - they could have online credit card but no - bills going backwards and forwards in the mail over months...

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Hi Kathryn

you quote Masterpiece but just to clarify - do you mean me or him ?

thanks

alan

My first comment was to Masterpiece; my second warning was to the both of you as well as a general warning to anyone who was thinking of escalating the discussion to an inappropriate level. I'm glad to know that you are not interested in letting things get heated up .

[Kathryn41 3,205]

If they were to put oath ceremonies to a vote, my vote would be for same as interview oath ceremonies.

Your IO went through the N-400 with you, verified all of your required evidence, gave you he civics and English test, have you read the oath aloud and sign it in his/her presence. Have the supervisor come in and take a couple of minutes to check over your application and evidence and sign it off. But I think your IO is being approved more than you are in that everything was done right. Give you your certificate, they have your photos, and send you on your way.

One improvement would be to combine the USCIS with the DOS, most of their functions are redundant, in that way, they can also hand you a US passport at the same time. And send you away with that as well.

I think it would be nice if they would offer you the option of a quiet oath-taking after the interview or doing a full-blown oath ceremony. I suspect the rationale behind the oath ceremony is that US citizenship is a big deal and they would like to ensure that people enjoy all of the pomp and circumstance that goes with a public affirmation of their new citizenship. Sometimes, however, the specialness of the ceremony gets lost in the logistics of the event and the volume of people taking the oath at the same time so that the people feel like they are being processed in a citizenship assembly line rather than enjoying a special, once in a life time, occasion. A citizenship ceremony should allow for family to be present and should allow for pictures. For those who don't want or need something special to mark their oath they should be allowed the option of taking the oath at the end of their test. I suspect there is some sort of legal requirements for those who issue the oath, however, so that may make the quick option a bit more difficult to accomplish. There is also that time that is required to produce the certificates physically as they won't know who is qualified until after they pass the interview/test. The same problem exists with the passport - not every American has a passport and they have no idea who is going to want a passport after they become a citizen so it is understandable that you would have to apply for that one separately.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Kathryn41

[Captain Oates 910]

My first comment was to Masterpiece; my second warning was to the both of you as well as a general warning to anyone who was thinking of escalating the discussion to an inappropriate level. I'm glad to know that you are not interested in letting things get heated up .

Thanks for that clarification

Alan

[NickD 202]

I think it would be nice if they would offer you the option of a quiet oath-taking after the interview or doing a full-blown oath ceremony. I suspect the rationale behind the oath ceremony is that US citizenship is a big deal and they would like to ensure that people enjoy all of the pomp and circumstance that goes with a public affirmation of their new citizenship. Sometimes, however, the specialness of the ceremony gets lost in the logistics of the event and the volume of people taking the oath at the same time so that the people feel like they are being processed in a citizenship assembly line rather than enjoying a special, once in a life time, occasion. A citizenship ceremony should allow for family to be present and should allow for pictures. For those who don't want or need something special to mark their oath they should be allowed the option of taking the oath at the end of their test. I suspect there is some sort of legal requirements for those who issue the oath, however, so that may make the quick option a bit more difficult to accomplish. There is also that time that is required to produce the certificates physically as they won't know who is qualified until after they pass the interview/test. The same problem exists with the passport - not every American has a passport and they have no idea who is going to want a passport after they become a citizen so it is understandable that you would have to apply for that one separately.

Seven years ago, I haven't even heard of the USCIS, in dealing with them, treated like I was guilty of fraud and had to prove we were innocent. But even at that receiving the naturalization certificate is not a sure sign of you made it. Read on the internet that some odd 5,000 court cases are pending on naturalized citizens for alleged fraud on their applications.

All in all, cost me about $16,000.00 to bring my wife and daughter here, besides the fees, a major cost was that out of pocket expense for the I-693's two of them. But ironically back then, the bottom of form said, even if you have every major communicable disease, still admissible, just have to agree to counseling. See that was changed recently on this form. Wife and daughter had an issue with their lifetime tuberculous vaccinations our doctors never heard about giving a soreness not even the size of a dime. Both had to agree to take that medication for like nine months, don't recall the name of it, but could cause kidney damage, all of those x-rays and skin tests were out of pocket expenses. But recently, our AMA adapted that British blood test that is far more accurate, and both have been listed as negative. But it was nice to know, they were both disease free. One contradiction I ran into, since I am living with two people with supposed tuberculous, shouldn't I be tested as well? No, its not required.

Another major expense not related to the USCIS was paying dearly for typos their former governments made in key documents, like marriage and birth certificates, mostly a V was used in place of a B in their names, ironically, these two keys are next to each other on a standard keyboard. Would have been much cheaper if we waited the two year court case load, but in those countries, the judges want a couple of bucks under the table to have their records reviewed in a reasonable period of time. While my wife could have translated all these documents, we elected to hire a certified translator for assured accuracy, that was also expensive. But in my first call to the USCIS, was asked if I wanted a Spanish line, if they have someone that speaks and reads Spanish, why do they want translated documents?

Even though my wife's ex abandoned his daughter five years before I met her, she was awarded full custody, and he moved to a different country, still needed his permission to bring her over here. He used this as blackmail, but we responded with like ten years of child support payments to counter that. But we had to pay for the court cost for that letter of permission, another major expense. But that letter of permission, her divorce papers showing full custody was worthless in attempting to get my step daughters' passport renewed, she had to wait until she was 18. Again, nothing to do with the USCIS.

We clocked over 1,350 miles for biometrics plus taking days off, more for interviews due to their delays in the I-751 processing. In that our field office does not have same day oaths, that was yet another long trip. But this is our fault for not living across the street from the nearest USCIS office. Was always a panic during our winter appointments for a severe snow storm, but the Lord was with us, we made all the appointments.

Today, we just have to maintain a Colombian passport so my wife can visit her mom.

Ha, when I read at the time of our AOS, the USCIS was giving free green cards to Cubans picked up by the USCG, suggested to my wife I tow my boat down, build a raft and drop them off in the gulf about 30 miles off shore to save on USCIS expenses. Of course, she didn't like that idea, but was another option to bring people over here.

[antda 13]

NickD-I agree, my vote would be fore same day interviews and same day oath ceremonies too...

It's more convenient that way too, for those who have far distances to travel to their 'local' office...

Funny too, that for some people, they spend more time travelling to get to their local office than the time spent there..

For example, my 'local' office is 1-2 hours one way (3-4 hours round trip) away...

And yes, it was certainly an inconvenience to have to travel to such on several occasions for very brief (less than 20 minutes on average) meetings at the local office...

Lol..Added to the fact that I had a small baby screaming in the backseat.....that sure makes for extra inconvenience....

Also, why is there inconsistencies as to why some local offices offer same day oath, while others don't...

Seems kind of unfair there that the same day oath is based on where one's local office is to get such done...

Or better yet, just send the certificate in the mail...Skip the ceremony...

After all, they did go through all the same stuff during the interview, so why repeat it again?

Redundancy and certainly a waste of time for all to have to go through a ceremony if they don't want such....

And heck, why not throw in a free passport too...I'm sure with that $675 naturalization/citizenship fee...They can at least do that as well, since one can't travel with a naturalization certificate.....

Lol..And yes, there is a lot of redundancy and waste in time and money in a lot of government agencies....It's a miracle that they are still able to function, despite 'the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing'....

Ant

If they were to put oath ceremonies to a vote, my vote would be for same as interview oath ceremonies.

Your IO went through the N-400 with you, verified all of your required evidence, gave you he civics and English test, have you read the oath aloud and sign it in his/her presence. Have the supervisor come in and take a couple of minutes to check over your application and evidence and sign it off. But I think your IO is being approved more than you are in that everything was done right. Give you your certificate, they have your photos, and send you on your way.

One improvement would be to combine the USCIS with the DOS, most of their functions are redundant, in that way, they can also hand you a US passport at the same time. And send you away with that as well.

Kathryn41-I agree.....It would be nice if they would offer the option of private oath ceremonies for those who wish to have such, instead of a group ceremony. For those who like the pomp and circumstance, then fine, let them enjoy the group oath ceremony. But to those who want a more private occasion, then why not let them enjoy such too. It's kind of like a wedding, or with any other party or any other special occasion...

Some like theirs big, some like theirs small...But at least the USCIS should be able to accomodate all!...(lol..rhyme here)

Kathryn, I felt the same way about the big ceremonies too...One tends to 'get lost in the crowd' amongst all those who are getting naturalized. And like you said, it feels like a 'big assembly line' and 'unpersonalized' when they do it in such a way. For a 'once in a lifetime' occasion, I think that it should be special..And to me, special means being with my family and enjoying something that is more personalized...Which is different from what the traditional group ceremony has to offer..Lol..And for the $675 that spent on citizenship, surely one should have some say as to how they want such an occasion to be like, such as whether or not they want it done in a big group or privately. Heck, we had more say in what we wanted for our wedding ceremony (which we spent less on, surprisingly) than we had say in an oath ceremony. As for legal requirements, all that is required is that the oath of citizenship to be administered, and that the citizenship certificate be signed, both to be done in front of an immigration officer (actually I think there are specific requirements written about this, it's on the USCIS website somewhere...feel free to do a search on it). Heck, that can be done within 20 minutes (as you can see from my private oath ceremony review). So why bother waiting again for an oath ceremony. As for printing of the certificates...It only takes about 5 minutes...If there are any mistakes or anything like that...They can reprint another one, no problem...So that's not really an excuse there as to them needing extra time to produce certificates. The only other legal requirement is that they District Immigration Officer (the head of the dept..) has to 'sign' for the certificates and approve all applications before one can actually have the oath administered to them. So if one can get the DO to sign off on it right away and for them to administer the oath right away, then yes, they can have an oath done sooner. Which was what happened in my case...where I could have had a same day oath...but because they had to run it through the District Immigration Officer that I had to wait a few more days before they could do my oath. Can't complain too much there though...As I passed my interview on a Thursday, got a phone call on a Friday, and got the oath ceremony on a Monday...So 5 days (lol..2 of which were weekend days...) between interview and private ceremony oath...not bad...Though yeah, I wish I didn't have to make an extra trip the local office within the same week again...blah....

As for the passport issue..I still don't have my US passport, despite being US Citizen for the last year or so...(but that's another issue/story which I've probably mentioned about in other VJ post topics)

But I don't see they they can't throw in a free passport too, at the time of the oath ceremony...I'm sure with that high $675 naturalization/citizenship fee...They can at least do that as well, since one can't travel with a naturalization certificate.....lol....

Ant

I think it would be nice if they would offer you the option of a quiet oath-taking after the interview or doing a full-blown oath ceremony. I suspect the rationale behind the oath ceremony is that US citizenship is a big deal and they would like to ensure that people enjoy all of the pomp and circumstance that goes with a public affirmation of their new citizenship. Sometimes, however, the specialness of the ceremony gets lost in the logistics of the event and the volume of people taking the oath at the same time so that the people feel like they are being processed in a citizenship assembly line rather than enjoying a special, once in a life time, occasion. A citizenship ceremony should allow for family to be present and should allow for pictures. For those who don't want or need something special to mark their oath they should be allowed the option of taking the oath at the end of their test. I suspect there is some sort of legal requirements for those who issue the oath, however, so that may make the quick option a bit more difficult to accomplish. There is also that time that is required to produce the certificates physically as they won't know who is qualified until after they pass the interview/test. The same problem exists with the passport - not every American has a passport and they have no idea who is going to want a passport after they become a citizen so it is understandable that you would have to apply for that one separately.

[Captain Oates 910]

Seven years ago, I haven't even heard of the USCIS, in dealing with them, treated like I was guilty of fraud and had to prove we were innocent. But even at that receiving the naturalization certificate is not a sure sign of you made it. Read on the internet that some odd 5,000 court cases are pending on naturalized citizens for alleged fraud on their applications.

All in all, cost me about $16,000.00 to bring my wife and daughter here, besides the fees, a major cost was that out of pocket expense for the I-693's two of them. But ironically back then, the bottom of form said, even if you have every major communicable disease, still admissible, just have to agree to counseling. See that was changed recently on this form. Wife and daughter had an issue with their lifetime tuberculous vaccinations our doctors never heard about giving a soreness not even the size of a dime. Both had to agree to take that medication for like nine months, don't recall the name of it, but could cause kidney damage, all of those x-rays and skin tests were out of pocket expenses. But recently, our AMA adapted that British blood test that is far more accurate, and both have been listed as negative. But it was nice to know, they were both disease free. One contradiction I ran into, since I am living with two people with supposed tuberculous, shouldn't I be tested as well? No, its not required.

Another major expense not related to the USCIS was paying dearly for typos their former governments made in key documents, like marriage and birth certificates, mostly a V was used in place of a B in their names, ironically, these two keys are next to each other on a standard keyboard. Would have been much cheaper if we waited the two year court case load, but in those countries, the judges want a couple of bucks under the table to have their records reviewed in a reasonable period of time. While my wife could have translated all these documents, we elected to hire a certified translator for assured accuracy, that was also expensive. But in my first call to the USCIS, was asked if I wanted a Spanish line, if they have someone that speaks and reads Spanish, why do they want translated documents?

Even though my wife's ex abandoned his daughter five years before I met her, she was awarded full custody, and he moved to a different country, still needed his permission to bring her over here. He used this as blackmail, but we responded with like ten years of child support payments to counter that. But we had to pay for the court cost for that letter of permission, another major expense. But that letter of permission, her divorce papers showing full custody was worthless in attempting to get my step daughters' passport renewed, she had to wait until she was 18. Again, nothing to do with the USCIS.

We clocked over 1,350 miles for biometrics plus taking days off, more for interviews due to their delays in the I-751 processing. In that our field office does not have same day oaths, that was yet another long trip. But this is our fault for not living across the street from the nearest USCIS office. Was always a panic during our winter appointments for a severe snow storm, but the Lord was with us, we made all the appointments.

Today, we just have to maintain a Colombian passport so my wife can visit her mom.

Ha, when I read at the time of our AOS, the USCIS was giving free green cards to Cubans picked up by the USCG, suggested to my wife I tow my boat down, build a raft and drop them off in the gulf about 30 miles off shore to save on USCIS expenses. Of course, she didn't like that idea, but was another option to bring people over here.

I reckon those who have had to go through the slings and arrows of the USCIS(everyone on here) are the most anti amnesty in the country. Unlike the other antis, we generally are not for machine gunning illegals in the river, but resentful of the idea they can just get it given on a plate. Whatever they get, it should NOT be a path to citizenship and their kids born here should not be able to sponsor them. They should go the normal system for a GC even if they get a permit to stay.

I just sealed my USC application yesterday and it's ready to mail in a couple of weeks. I take your point about it's never really over. Suppose I was Mel Gibson and his wife was the USC - imagine the stuff she could say about my previous applications to get the USC reversed. Invitation to blackmail.

I was looking at the UK regs and they can tear a naturalised UK passport up on the whim of the Home Secretary with little or no process ! So as much as we moan (and we do), there is a level of public scrutiny in the US that there isn't in the UK.

Having torn my hair out at the HMRC for 3 years, it makes me think the unthinkable - that the USCIS isn't really as ridiculously incompetent as they seem - well in comparison to most companies they are totally useless and should be zapped - but in contrast to the UK tax people, they actually look good ! That takes some doing.

I am certain my USC application will be approved by xmas but I have no idea when the ceremony will take place and there is no way to find out - so my spring vacation cannot be planned

Edited July 18, 2010 by saywhat

[NickD 202]

You sign your N-440 oath and oath ceremony before an IO, but they hand you your certificate, the most important piece of paper, and you take that home to sign it. That seemed kind of strange. And the oath at the oath ceremony was just lip service, also kind of strange.

[Captain Oates 910]

I could totally rationalise the USCIS and do it for 40% less and I could do that in less than 1 day. If they gave me 1% of the savings, I could afford a harem of 30 top notch birds like the sultan of brunei

I used to think all the junk was built in to let people think twice about going through with whatever they were applying for. Then I used to think they were trying to put me off totally. Now I am convinced it's just incompetence.

Having sealed this n400 application, I have just realised that I have finished with USC form filling - it's a weird feeling

Think I will have to do a pilot's license or something as I am now addicted to being told I have 'passed' or 'been approved'

It is actually a recognized condition and some people go all over the world passing driver's tests or scuba diver's tests, hang gliding competence certificates etc etc etc and they have a club for fellow sufferers

I will try and do Spanish instead and see if that will give me the fix I need.

Or become a moderator on VJ and live it 24 hours !

Edited July 18, 2010 by saywhat

[Captain Oates 910]

oops

Edited July 18, 2010 by saywhat

[Kathryn41 3,205]

. . .

Having sealed this n400 application, I have just realised that I have finished with USC form filling - it's a weird feeling

Think I will have to do a pilot's license or something as I am now addicted to being told I have 'passed' or 'been approved'

It is actually a recognized condition and some people go all over the world passing driver's tests or scuba diver's tests, hang gliding competence certificates etc etc etc and they have a club for fellow sufferers

I will try and do Spanish instead and see if that will give me the fix I need.

Or become a moderator on VJ and live it 24 hours !

:lol: well you would certainly live it 24 hours but you wouldn't have to worry about doing any forms - just forums . Actually, while you will be finished filling out forms for USCIS (after you take your oath - you still have a form to check off when you get your oath letter ) you have more forms that will still need your attention - updating your SSN, applying for a US passport, updating your driver's license and registering to vote!

Edited July 18, 2010 by Kathryn41

[Captain Oates 910]

:lol: well you would certainly live it 24 hours but you wouldn't have to worry about doing any forms - just forums . Actually, while you will be finished filling out forms for USCIS (after you take your oath - you still have a form to check off when you get your oath letter ) you have more forms that will still need your attention - updating your SSN, applying for a US passport, updating your driver's license and registering to vote!

oh they will be easy peasy and not USCIS forms that's the main thing...

It's great at the SS office - you certainly see life in there...last one was Clearwater Florida.

Passport forms done already but must check they dont get updated before i send em

I have located a office max that does color photo copies near the Court building

I have located a post office that does passports near the office max

All in the GPS favorites !

So plan is to hurtle out of the court, get some color copies (for own use only of course), then go to post office and file for passport.

All highly organized and like a military operation.

Then I can go get drunk and drive home coz I cant be deported ! (joke)

I cant file this sealed envelope for 3 weeks and apart from the photos (30 days max), it's been all done for 2 months !

My ONLY worry now is the gap between the interview and the ceremony coz I want to plan my spring holiday. I can't find anyway to get t0o know Yakima's time gap

I will be doing it at Yakima ..here is the ceremony !