Got Orfy? Urfy? Orfi? Urfi?

[~Jackie~ 30]

Not boring Mike if one is involved in this.

I am grateful we have knowledgable people like VW to share what she knows. Her research is far beyond what most could do here and puts facts onto the boards for everyone to learn from.

No, opinions will not be changed here probably, but we can keep open minds and learn something rather than diddle away the day.

Jackie

[Sofiyya 1,687]

What is the bottom line here - or what am I supposed to be learning from reading all of this?

......that ppl are never gonna agree on religious dogma, and that there are more important things in life than in trying to convice someone else how wrong they are, for not believing the way you do.....boring.

Please go do those more important things.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

There is an entire body of law governing the marriage contract, how it should be drawn up, what conditions are valid, which madhab controls, how the mahr is determined, the age of consent, whether a father needs his daughter's consent to marry her off, etc.. If marriage contracts could never be held to be invalid, a universe of jurists and scholars and registrars would be totally unnecessary in Islamic law, for we could just marry ourselves any way we want to and be done with it.

But it's not that way. Why is that?

[desert_fox 32]

What is the bottom line here - or what am I supposed to be learning from reading all of this?

......that ppl are never gonna agree on religious dogma, and that there are more important things in life than in trying to convice someone else how wrong they are, for not believing the way you do.....boring.

Please go do those more important things.

I am...I'm cleaning the lint out of the clothes dryer as we speak.

Edited January 11, 2009 by desert_fox

[desert_fox 32]

There is an entire body of law governing the marriage contract, how it should be drawn up, what conditions are valid, which madhab controls, how the mahr is determined, the age of consent, whether a father needs his daughter's consent to marry her off, etc.. If marriage contracts could never be held to be invalid, a universe of jurists and scholars and registrars would be totally unnecessary in Islamic law, for we could just marry ourselves any way we want to and be done with it.

But it's not that way. Why is that?

Not in this country. In case of a divorce, disposition of community property, debt, etc. is determined by state law, and not some religious contract that you feel that you may have.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

There is an entire body of law governing the marriage contract, how it should be drawn up, what conditions are valid, which madhab controls, how the mahr is determined, the age of consent, whether a father needs his daughter's consent to marry her off, etc.. If marriage contracts could never be held to be invalid, a universe of jurists and scholars and registrars would be totally unnecessary in Islamic law, for we could just marry ourselves any way we want to and be done with it.

But it's not that way. Why is that?

Not in this country. In case of a divorce, disposition of community property, debt, etc. is determined by state law, and not some religious contract that you feel that you may have.

Actually, that was once true, but it's changing. Attorneys like Azizah Al-Hibri and Asifa Quraishi have published quite a bit of work on how American courts are considering Islamic marriage contract provisions when making divorce rulings.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I want to thank you, desert fox, for raising the matter of applying provisions in Muslim marriage contracts in American courts. What kind of contract you enter into and present as a marriage can be of overwhelming import when divorcing. I will post some articles that demonstrate that the urfi contract can be used against you in the US. Some women here have stated that they sent a copy of their contract with their immigration papers for a K1 as proof of an ongoing relationship. Well, the lack of obligations and rights can come back to bite you.

Read: Islamic Marriage Contracts in American Courts: Interpreting Mahr Agreements as Prenuptuals and Their Effect on Muslin Women

I plan to post more relevant sources for the real world, not as part of a philosophical, romantic justification for getting laid, then filing a K1.

Edited January 11, 2009 by Virtual wife

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Not boring Mike if one is involved in this.

I am grateful we have knowledgable people like VW to share what she knows. Her research is far beyond what most could do here and puts facts onto the boards for everyone to learn from.

No, opinions will not be changed here probably, but we can keep open minds and learn something rather than diddle away the day.

Jackie

Thank you, JJ. I do my best. All knowledge is from Allah.

[notime4haterz 0]

There is an entire body of law governing the marriage contract, how it should be drawn up, what conditions are valid, which madhab controls, how the mahr is determined, the age of consent, whether a father needs his daughter's consent to marry her off, etc.. If marriage contracts could never be held to be invalid, a universe of jurists and scholars and registrars would be totally unnecessary in Islamic law, for we could just marry ourselves any way we want to and be done with it.

But it's not that way. Why is that?

I have 2 questions for Virtualwife.

I'm not arguing with you, but I think what I'm imagining as orfy and what you are saying is different. Here is my example: I had the mahr and stipulated the muakhar. I had my father's (and mother's) consent. My family and his were both present at the nikah. We were both told that we were now engaging in an Islamic marriage and that we were responsible to uphold XYZ rules. We had all our witnesses (as well as all our guests who witnessed it). We were asked 3 times each if we wanted to marry each other. We simply didn't register with any government until later.

In your opinion, was our marriage invalid?

You seem to be against marriage for the sake of being alone together in halal. Why is that?

[desert_fox 32]

I want to thank you, desert fox, for raising the matter of applying provisions in Muslim marriage contracts in American courts.

Read: Islamic Marriage Contracts in American Courts: Interpreting Mahr Agreements as Prenuptuals and Their Effect on Muslin Women

N.P. you know that enjoy being your straight guy. Actually an interesting read. Just goes to show ya thaqt even the D_F is capabale of learning something new (not often, but possible).

[~Jackie~ 30]

As I see it, the issue is, and I may be wrong feel free to correct me, the issue is when the orfi marriage is so there can be 'alone' time--- sometimes resulting in physical contact, then immigration papers are filed soon after. That paper marriage was for one purpose only as another marriage must happen in the states for a k1'er.

Ok, sitting back ready to learn more. Mike, hop on up next to me on da learnin couch.

JJ

[notime4haterz 0]

I read the article you linked.

Her parents were not good negotiators. Everyone that marries should get a muakhar put into their contract and it should be a very large amount. Large enough that a woman can take care of herself and kids if she has any, for at least awhile, until she can either remarry or find work and be on her feet. Her parents also could have stipulated in the contract that she get XXX percent of all his assets upon divorce, should divorce occur. People mistake these things as "gold digging" but it's really just security. When it's over and done with, they usually wish they had been more aggressive about this.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I do not intend to belabor this topic, but to address the demands for proof for my assertions. During the formation of Islamic marriage law by the early scholars, distinctions were made between tribal slavery law, the law that pertained to marriage in pre-Islamic Arabia because women were treated as property, and God's law that elevated the humanity of women and liberated them from property. Al-Nisa, the surah of the Quran which ost deeply addresses marriage and famly law, recognizes that not all women were viewed as equal in Arabia, thus provides for marriage to "those whom your right hand possesses", ie slave women.

However, in the tradition of incrementalism developed over the 23 year revelation of the Quran, the scholars allowed current social and economic norms to be incorporated into fiqh as a matter of practicality. This is why it is a non-negotiable to be able to discern the law of God from the law of man. Scholars over the centuries have continued to make allowances for the base nature of men, which have not served women well or preserved their rights in the way that Allah intends, according to His Word.

Thus, some tenets of pre-Islamic slavery law have prevailed over the Message in law and practice. Some of the tenets that are found in historical study of fiqh school determinations include:

The ability of a father to marry off a daughter against her will;

The ability of a wali to marry a woman to a man without her consent;

Measuring the social value of women by their father's social standing;

Measuring a woman's value by her virginity or lack of it;

Measuring a woman's worth by her marital status (divorced, widowed);

Measuring women by their religious affiliation (non-Muslims lack status);

Dividing women into free and slave status, and providing for differing treatment based on this.

According to fiqh, the mahr for a non-virgin is less than that of a virgin. She brings less honor and value into the marriage. All fiqh schools except the Shafi'i deem that sexual pleasure and command belongs ONLY to the man (istimta), that the wife has no right to sexual pleasure and that she has consented to be at his beck and call to provide sex to him whenever he pleases. Via the nikah and the mahr, he owns her body and her reproductive ability, can force her to have sex at ay time, to become pregnant to provide him progeny, or abort the child if he doesn't want it. He also controls and holds the marriage contract that gives him that right (haqq al istimtaa’).

The nikah, as I have explained before, is a contract for the legalization of sexual relations. In a valid Islamic contract, recognizing that the forfeit of a woman's virginity devalued her in Arab society, Allah's sharia (not to be confused with man-made fiqh) provided for maintenance, inheritance, child care, mercy, good treatment, fairness in the event that she is a co-wife and other provisions that are intended to compensate for the loss of the commodity of virginity.

In an urfi contract, a fiqh concoction, these provisions are not available to her, but the right to her bdy and its pleasure is still wholly available to him. The urfi was intended for "lesser value" women, those past child-bearing years, the adultress, the widowed and divorced, the slave. Those of you who meet those criteria and have settled for an urfi have allowed yourselves to be devalued.

The fiqh law of a Muslim country is not a thing to be played with. Thse of you who go to MENA and marry, urfi or not, under the laws of a foreign country must do so with care. Contracts have consequences, and, when asserted, they can harm you in ways you did not consider when you were in heat and agreeing to anything. Working in international law, I have seen the results of legal conplications foisted upon parties, whether it be in marriage law, or commerical law, where I work now. My advice: Don't sign something you don't understand.

[notime4haterz 0]

As I see it, the issue is, and I may be wrong feel free to correct me, the issue is when the orfi marriage is so there can be 'alone' time--- sometimes resulting in physical contact, then immigration papers are filed soon after. That paper marriage was for one purpose only as another marriage must happen in the states for a k1'er.

Ok, sitting back ready to learn more. Mike, hop on up next to me on da learnin couch.

JJ

I have no idea about the K-1 process. In my situation he was coming and going on the visa waiver. Immigration was not an issue we were even contemplating at the time we married.

I will tell you this though. When he came the first time for us to meet in person, we went for a walk around the neighborhood and sometimes sat at the pond which is right in my front yard. My mom and his older brother were freaked out about that...let alone if we decided to go out together! We got lectured and reprimanded like 2 teenagers. Finally my aunt's husband said, "Do the nikah now so that you can all get off their case." So we did!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

There is an entire body of law governing the marriage contract, how it should be drawn up, what conditions are valid, which madhab controls, how the mahr is determined, the age of consent, whether a father needs his daughter's consent to marry her off, etc.. If marriage contracts could never be held to be invalid, a universe of jurists and scholars and registrars would be totally unnecessary in Islamic law, for we could just marry ourselves any way we want to and be done with it.

But it's not that way. Why is that?

I have 2 questions for Virtualwife.

I'm not arguing with you, but I think what I'm imagining as orfy and what you are saying is different. Here is my example: I had the mahr and stipulated the muakhar. I had my father's (and mother's) consent. My family and his were both present at the nikah. We were both told that we were now engaging in an Islamic marriage and that we were responsible to uphold XYZ rules. We had all our witnesses (as well as all our guests who witnessed it). We were asked 3 times each if we wanted to marry each other. We simply didn't register with any government until later.

In your opinion, was our marriage invalid?

You seem to be against marriage for the sake of being alone together in halal. Why is that?

Marriages are most often registered later. For example, my husband and I married in the office of an adoul (a marriage registrar). We had two witnesses, the offer and consent, the mahr, understood the rights and obligations before signing the contract, and made it public. The contract was not presented to the court for several days, but that didn't mean we were not married at the time we signed the contract because, not only did we employ an authorized marriage agent, we absolutely intended to register.

You had all the elements for a wedding, and you intended to and did register your contract. As long as the contract conforms to the rulings of the regional madhab as interpreted by the state, you are all set for filing for a marriage visa in the US. Only two predominately Muslim countries, Turkey and Lebanon, do not assert that their laws are not applied according to sharia. All others do, andwhether you agree with them or not as to their understanding of sharia, they are the authority when it comes to marriage law in their understanding of Islamic requirements.

All marriages are about intent, good or bad intent. If someone enters into a union with the intent to waive their rights and protections, more power to them, they agreed to that, just don't call it Islamic.