Zarqawi Killed In Air Raid

[yabasta 0]

face it, life is a conspiracy

Life is filled with people who lie and cheat and many of them are in government. It is well documented. Oh yes and they conspire too. PROVEN FACT.

Edited June 18, 2006 by yabasta

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

How about European colonization of just about everywhere in the Middle East, Africa, and South-East Asia? If you don't think that had SOMETHING to do with it.... you are dead wrong!

i was wanting him to qualify this statement:

"I wouldn't say the root of this problem is in the religion of Islam, but in the fact that many of these countries are still dealing with the results of political instability that goes back many years, instability that has been perpetuated artificially (in recent decades) by US and European imperialism."

specifically, the part about "recent decades" and by whom

Hmmm about Iran, Iraq and Palestine via the US, Russia and almost every western european country.

Who deposed Iran's president in 1953 and reinstalled the Shah? What was the result of that?

Who sold weapons to Saddam Hussein and encouraged him to go to war in Iran?

Who created the Israeli state after WW2?

These are all rhetorical questions mind you.

[Ban Hammer 14,275]

How about European colonization of just about everywhere in the Middle East, Africa, and South-East Asia? If you don't think that had SOMETHING to do with it.... you are dead wrong!

i was wanting him to qualify this statement:

"I wouldn't say the root of this problem is in the religion of Islam, but in the fact that many of these countries are still dealing with the results of political instability that goes back many years, instability that has been perpetuated artificially (in recent decades) by US and European imperialism."

specifically, the part about "recent decades" and by whom

Hmmm about Iran, Iraq and Palestine via the US, Russia and almost every western european country.

Who deposed Iran's president in 1953 and reinstalled the Shah? What was the result of that?

Who sold weapons to Saddam Hussein and encouraged him to go to war in Iran?

Who created the Israeli state after WW2?

These are all rhetorical questions mind you.

perhaps you should define "recent" firstly, then

for me recent is in the past 20-30 years. you're back over 50

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

How about European colonization of just about everywhere in the Middle East, Africa, and South-East Asia? If you don't think that had SOMETHING to do with it.... you are dead wrong!

i was wanting him to qualify this statement:

"I wouldn't say the root of this problem is in the religion of Islam, but in the fact that many of these countries are still dealing with the results of political instability that goes back many years, instability that has been perpetuated artificially (in recent decades) by US and European imperialism."

specifically, the part about "recent decades" and by whom

Hmmm about Iran, Iraq and Palestine via the US, Russia and almost every western european country.

Who deposed Iran's president in 1953 and reinstalled the Shah? What was the result of that?

Who sold weapons to Saddam Hussein and encouraged him to go to war in Iran?

Who created the Israeli state after WW2?

These are all rhetorical questions mind you.

perhaps you should define "recent" firstly, then

for me recent is in the past 20-30 years. you're back over 50

Actually arming Iraq took place during the last 20-25 years.. As did the Iran-Iraq war. As did the arming of the Mujahadeen in Afhghanistan.

They were cutting off the russians' heads long before they were doing the same to us, but apparently it was ok then.

Edited June 18, 2006 by Fishdude

[yabasta 0]

Key

A = nuclear weapon program

B = biological weapon program

C = chemical weapon program

R = rocket program

K = conventional weapons, military logistics, supplies at the Iraqi Ministry of Defense, and building of military plants

USA

1. Honeywell (R, K)

2. Spectra Physics (K)

3. Semetex ®

4. TI Coating (A, K)

5. Unisys (A, K)

6. Sperry Corp. (R, K)

7. Tektronix (R, A)

8. Rockwell (K)

9. Leybold Vacuum Systems (A)

10. Finnigan-MAT-US (A)

11. Hewlett-Packard (A, R, K)

12. Dupont (A)

13. Eastman Kodak ®

14. American Type Culture Collection (B)

15. Alcolac International ©

16. Consarc (A)

17. Carl Zeiss - U.S (K)

18. Cerberus (LTD) (A)

19. Electronic Associates ®

20. International Computer Systems (A, R, K)

21. Bechtel (K)

22. EZ Logic Data Systems, Inc. ®

23. Canberra Industries Inc. (A)

24. Axel Electronics Inc. (A)

"In addition to these 24 companies home-based in the USA are 50 subsidiaries of foreign enterprises which conducted their arms business with Iraq from within the US. Also designated as suppliers for Iraq's arms programs (A, B, C & R) are the US Ministries of Defense, Energy, Trade and Agriculture as well as the Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos and Sandia National Laboratories."

China

1. China Wanbao Engineering Company (A, C, K)

2. Huawei Technologies Co. Ltd (K)

3. China State Missile Company ®

France

1. Commissariat a l'Energie Atomique (A)

2. Sciaky (A)

3. Thomson CSF (A, K)

4. Aerospatiale and Matra Espace ®

5. Cerbag (A)

6. Protec SA ©

7. Thales Group (A)

8. Societé Général pour les Techniques Nouvelles (A)

Great Britain

1. Euromac Ltd-Uk (A)

2. C. Plath-Nuclear (A)

3. Endshire Export Marketing (A)

4. International Computer Systems (A, R, K)

5. MEED International (A, C)

6. Walter Somers Ltd. ®

7. International Computer Limited (A, K)

8. Matrix Churchill Corp. (A)

9. Ali Ashour Daghir (A)

10. International Military Services ® (part of the UK Ministry of Defence)

11. Sheffield Forgemasters ®

12. Technology Development Group ®

13. International Signal and Control ®

14. Terex Corporation ®

15. Inwako (A)

16. TMG Engineering (K)

17. XYY Options, Inc (A)

USSR/Russia

1. Soviet State Missile Co. ®

2. Niikhism ®

3. Mars Rotor ®

4. Livinvest ®

5. Russia Aviatin Trading House (K)

6. Amsar Trading (K)

Japan

1. Fanuc (A)

2. Hammamatsu Photonics KK (A)

3. NEC (A)

4. Osaka (A)

5. Waida (A)

The Netherlands

1.Melchemie B.V. ©

2. KBS Holland B.V. ©

3. Delft Instruments N.V. (K)

Belgium

1. Boehler Edelstahl (A)

2. NU Kraft Mercantile Corporation ©

3. OIP Instrubel (K)

4. Phillips Petroleum ©

5. Poudries Réunies Belge SA ®

6. Sebatra (A)

7. Space Research Corp. ®

Spain

1. Donabat ®

2. Treblam ©

3. Zayer (A)

Sweden

1. ABB (A)

2. Saab-Scania ®

Source: Die Tageszeitung, No. 6934, 19 Dec 2002, page 3. See the original in German.

http://www.taz.de/pt/2002/12/19/a0080.1/textdruck

Note: The 80 German companies named in the dossier were not included in this list.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,861902,00.html

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Instead, why don't you respond to what I actually wrote about the Berg video ? Or better yet, make an attempt to explain why it's possible for a living person to not bleed when having his head cut off ?

No idea. Low blood pressure?

Yes very low.... I think pegging the scale at about zero.

Seriously, if your blood pressure is so low that nothing squirts out when someone saws your head off, I think it's safe to say that you were already among the dearly departed.

[slim 1,533]

Please give me an example of an "innocent person" who was beheaded.

Ken Bigley.

Ken Bigley was a contractor for GSCS who is most definitely an enemy of the terrorists.

(From the GSCS website) GSCS was selected by Parsons Infrastructure & Technology Group to perform various Operations & Maintenance services at bare-base camps throughout Northern, Central and Southern Iraq.

Aiding the enemy is grounds for termination in any war. Is it a terrorist act because he was beheaded? Or, was it a terrorist act because he was a "civilian?" Actually, it was a terrorist act because it was done to instill fear into the enemies of the organization responsible for the action. However, saying Ken Bigley was "an innocent victim" of a terror attack is like saying Al-Zarqawi's "spiritual advisor" was also an "innocent victim." Has anyone said that yet?

[yabasta 0]

As an interesting aside i used to work for Lidl a German discount foodstore. The sales operations manager for our region at one time was Craig Bigley who was Ken`s son. Don`t have anything more to say than that.

[MPGGPM 0]

However, since I'm sitting here, fat, dumb, and happy in the US,

This was probably the most articulate point you have made in this entire thread....and who am I to argue with such logic?

[Ban Hammer 14,275]

Aiding the enemy is grounds for termination in any war.

that alone could make the average us taxpayer a target...legally...by your definition.

[dalegg 143]

Please give me an example of an "innocent person" who was beheaded.

Ken Bigley.

Ken Bigley was a contractor for GSCS who is most definitely an enemy of the terrorists.

(From the GSCS website) GSCS was selected by Parsons Infrastructure & Technology Group to perform various Operations & Maintenance services at bare-base camps throughout Northern, Central and Southern Iraq.

Aiding the enemy is grounds for termination in any war. Is it a terrorist act because he was beheaded? Or, was it a terrorist act because he was a "civilian?" Actually, it was a terrorist act because it was done to instill fear into the enemies of the organization responsible for the action. However, saying Ken Bigley was "an innocent victim" of a terror attack is like saying Al-Zarqawi's "spiritual advisor" was also an "innocent victim." Has anyone said that yet?

Would a church full of Christians trying to spread Christianity in Iraq also not be considered innocents?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Or better yet, make an attempt to explain why it's possible for a living person to not bleed when having his head cut off ?

Just got back from a web-surfing exbedtion on this subject and wow! Turns out this whole faking of the video claim has been going on for a couple of years- apparantly since the video was released. Never heard of this controversy before. One thing I find consistent in these sites though is that almost nobody claiming the video is fake says the person is not bleeding at all. They are saying it doesn't bleed enough, so I think they agree with me that you do see blood in the video.

Looking back to these posts made in 2004, one reason for citing the video is fake is that it couldn't be Zarqawi in the video because "as reported by the CIA, Zarqawi is already dead"

I wonder what people who post these things think a couple years later now when Zarqawi is actually killed? Are we going to find out that Zarqawi's body was on ice for a couple years? I cannot wait.

The Berg video has been the subject of such extensive discussion, scrutiny, analysis and yes, much speculation on the net.... I'm always surprised when people are surprised to find it.

I'm not sure what exactly you've read.... some of the claims are pretty far-fetched.

However, living people having their heads cut off do produce a copious amount of blood -- it spurts from the severed arteries and veins of the neck, including the aorta and the jugular vein.

In fact (lol @ Charles) you don't have to be a blood spatter expert to figure this out. You can easily look into British history for some descriptions of what really happens when a living head is cut from its body. Read about the British custom of spreading hay on the scaffold because of all the blood involved.

The official account of the beheading of Mary Queen of Scots in 1587 reads:

"Then one of the executioners, pulling off her garters, espied her little dog which was crept under her clothes which could not be gotten forth but by force, yet afterwards would not depart from the dead corpse, but came and lay between her head and her shoulders, which being imbued with her blood, was carried away and washed."

But it ain't happening like that in the Berg video. Look at the man who is supposed to be doing the cutting -- he is even wearing a white headcloth covering his face. He is just inches away from his victim when he supposedly cuts the head. Not one drop of blood splashes on him. And when they hold up the severed head, no blood is dripping from it.

So this is why I say the Berg video not does not show the slaughter of a living person, although whoever made it certainly wanted us to think it did.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Please give me an example of an "innocent person" who was beheaded.

Ken Bigley.

Ken Bigley was a contractor for GSCS who is most definitely an enemy of the terrorists.

(From the GSCS website) GSCS was selected by Parsons Infrastructure & Technology Group to perform various Operations & Maintenance services at bare-base camps throughout Northern, Central and Southern Iraq.

Aiding the enemy is grounds for termination in any war. Is it a terrorist act because he was beheaded? Or, was it a terrorist act because he was a "civilian?" Actually, it was a terrorist act because it was done to instill fear into the enemies of the organization responsible for the action. However, saying Ken Bigley was "an innocent victim" of a terror attack is like saying Al-Zarqawi's "spiritual advisor" was also an "innocent victim." Has anyone said that yet?

Would a church full of Christians trying to spread Christianity in Iraq also not be considered innocents?

I don't agree with Slim here, I imagine they (the insurgents) justify it from the perspective anyone who helps with the reconstruction effort is profiting from the war (which of course they are) and the human misery that it created. Its a simplification I think to suggest that the various insurgent groups don't have their own agenda here, quite apart from fighting foreign invaders on sovereign soil.

Ken Bigley of course was just a guy doing his job, not a fighter in the front lines. Still there's no reasonable justification for his murder on those or any grounds.

Or better yet, make an attempt to explain why it's possible for a living person to not bleed when having his head cut off ?

Just got back from a web-surfing exbedtion on this subject and wow! Turns out this whole faking of the video claim has been going on for a couple of years- apparantly since the video was released. Never heard of this controversy before. One thing I find consistent in these sites though is that almost nobody claiming the video is fake says the person is not bleeding at all. They are saying it doesn't bleed enough, so I think they agree with me that you do see blood in the video.

Looking back to these posts made in 2004, one reason for citing the video is fake is that it couldn't be Zarqawi in the video because "as reported by the CIA, Zarqawi is already dead"

I wonder what people who post these things think a couple years later now when Zarqawi is actually killed? Are we going to find out that Zarqawi's body was on ice for a couple years? I cannot wait.

The Berg video has been the subject of such extensive discussion, scrutiny, analysis and yes, much speculation on the net.... I'm always surprised when people are surprised to find it.

I'm not sure what exactly you've read.... some of the claims are pretty far-fetched.

However, living people having their heads cut off do produce a copious amount of blood -- it spurts from the severed arteries and veins of the neck, including the aorta and the jugular vein.

In fact (lol @ Charles) you don't have to be a blood spatter expert to figure this out. You can easily look into British history for some descriptions of what really happens when a living head is cut from its body. Read about the British custom of spreading hay on the scaffold because of all the blood involved.

The official account of the beheading of Mary Queen of Scots in 1587 reads:

"Then one of the executioners, pulling off her garters, espied her little dog which was crept under her clothes which could not be gotten forth but by force, yet afterwards would not depart from the dead corpse, but came and lay between her head and her shoulders, which being imbued with her blood, was carried away and washed."

But it ain't happening like that in the Berg video. Look at the man who is supposed to be doing the cutting -- he is even wearing a white headcloth covering his face. He is just inches away from his victim when he supposedly cuts the head. Not one drop of blood splashes on him. And when they hold up the severed head, no blood is dripping from it.

So this is why I say the Berg video not does not show the slaughter of a living person, although whoever made it certainly wanted us to think it did.

But I have to ask again why is this important when there have been dozens of beheadings that have been caught on film? You can't deny that this has happened. People have been abducted, murdered and decapitated (not necessarily in that order). I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

[Ban Hammer 14,275]

I don't agree with Slim here, I imagine they (the insurgents) justify it from the perspective anyone who helps with the reconstruction effort is profiting from the war (which of course they are) and the human misery that it created. Its a simplification I think to suggest that the various insurgent groups don't have their own agenda here, quite apart from fighting foreign invaders on sovereign soil.

i'm getting worried now. i can't find anything to disagree with in that above. keep it up fishdude, and we'll have to take away your dnc card.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I don't agree with Slim here, I imagine they (the insurgents) justify it from the perspective anyone who helps with the reconstruction effort is profiting from the war (which of course they are) and the human misery that it created. Its a simplification I think to suggest that the various insurgent groups don't have their own agenda here, quite apart from fighting foreign invaders on sovereign soil.

i'm getting worried now. i can't find anything to disagree with in that above. keep it up fishdude, and we'll have to take away your dnc card.

Like many people, I'm not a stereotype