I just HAD to say something ...

[KarenCee 3]

No...I'm sure it won't fix things. I guess I am just too close to this issue because of my job. And the abuse I've seen personally in my lifetime. I can't stand to see children mistreated. It hurts. And all of you have the supreme right to raise your children the way you see fit. Personally, I don't want our daughter afraid of us.

To merc and jen....I do humbly apologise for so obviously making you sick with my opinions.

[keltic 1]

since when is shoving something into a childs mouth to the point of causing choking NOT abuse? choking can cause DEATH.. hello?!?!?!?!?!?

and where did gimy say that she was screaming at the woman?

Ok change screaming to berating.

And if the mother was REALLY choking the kid by shoving food in her mouth...if the mother would endanger her daughter to that degree...do you think a stern talking to is gonna fix it?

Seriously. I'm curious.

ok, you are all right... gimy should have just let the woman shove food down the childs mouth until she choked to the point of death and not say a word... its better than possibly offending the mother

maybe gimys response might have given someone who was watching, or even involved, a glimmer of hope that someone else in the world might actually give a damn about a total stranger... lets hope that if any of you are ever in a position of danger that someone will stop and at least try to help you

[Jenn! 918]

To merc and jen....I do humbly apologise for so obviously making you sick with my opinions.

Umm, I don't know what you're talking about. I never said anything of the kind.

[ace13 0]

To merc and jen....I do humbly apologise for so obviously making you sick with my opinions.

Umm, I don't know what you're talking about. I never said anything of the kind.

[mercuryroad 0]

there is a difference between respect and fear... they are NOT the same thing:

respect: n.

A feeling of appreciative, often deferential regard; esteem. See Synonyms at regard.

The state of being regarded with honor or esteem.

Willingness to show consideration or appreciation.

fear: n.

A feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or imminence of danger.

A state or condition marked by this feeling: living in fear.

A feeling of disquiet or apprehension: a fear of looking foolish.

a child can respect a parent without FEARING them

You don't fear your parents. You fear the consequences of your actions (and you respect your parents )

please refer to mercuryroads post above where he states that kids should fear their parents

I said fear was a sign of respect. And yes, fear of the consquences of the action, but for me, also of fear of the person who would be distributing the punishment.

I never stopped doing something because I was afraid I wouldn't get to play Nintendo for a week.....I stopped because I was afraid of my mother who was doing the punishing. I was also afraid to let her down and make her look bad. That fear was a sign that I respected her.

Having a stranger come up to her and tell her how to parent also undermines that mother's authority.

Dixie - I hear ya girl and am on board with you 100%. Clearly what you did was right.....I just think this situation was totally and completely different.

[Fandango 1,440]

since when is shoving something into a childs mouth to the point of causing choking NOT abuse? choking can cause DEATH.. hello?!?!?!?!?!?

and where did gimy say that she was screaming at the woman?

Ok change screaming to berating.

And if the mother was REALLY choking the kid by shoving food in her mouth...if the mother would endanger her daughter to that degree...do you think a stern talking to is gonna fix it?

Seriously. I'm curious.

ok, you are all right... gimy should have just let the woman shove food down the childs mouth until she choked to the point of death and not say a word... its better than possibly offending the mother

maybe gimys response might have given someone who was watching, or even involved, a glimmer of hope that someone else in the world might actually give a damn about a total stranger... lets hope that if any of you are ever in a position of danger that someone will stop and at least try to help you

Keltic, please don't take offense to what I'm saying here.

My argument is not one of 'oh she shouldnt; have offended'...my argument is if the mother is capable of choking a child to the point its such a spectacle, the cops should have been called. Not some beratement from a stranger & then being sent on your merry way. Even Gimy acknowledges that the mother will prolly continue her behavior, so how much help was given, really?

[Jenn! 918]

I said fear was a sign of respect. And yes, fear of the consquences of the action, but for me, also of fear of the person who would be distributing the punishment.

I never stopped doing something because I was afraid I wouldn't get to play Nintendo for a week.....I stopped because I was afraid of my mother who was doing the punishing. I was also afraid to let her down and make her look bad. That fear was a sign that I respected her.

Having a stranger come up to her and tell her how to parent also undermines that mother's authority.

Dixie - I hear ya girl and am on board with you 100%. Clearly what you did was right.....I just think this situation was totally and completely different.

[pax 1]

Of course children need boundaries, discipline, rules, and the like. Children should indeed respect their parents simply because they are their parents.

But parents likewise ought to be able to establish those boundaries and feelings of respect without resorting to force, cruelty, and harsh intimidation.

[keltic 1]

Of course children need boundaries, discipline, rules, and the like. Children should indeed respect their parents simply because they are their parents.

But parents likewise ought to be able to establish those boundaries and feelings of respect without resorting to force, cruelty, and harsh intimidation.

exactly

[mercuryroad 0]

No...I'm sure it won't fix things. I guess I am just too close to this issue because of my job. And the abuse I've seen personally in my lifetime. I can't stand to see children mistreated. It hurts. And all of you have the supreme right to raise your children the way you see fit. Personally, I don't want our daughter afraid of us.

To merc and jen....I do humbly apologise for so obviously making you sick with my opinions.

Karen - it's not like that and I can appreciate your sympathy for the children. That's a great thing......I was just expressing my opinion on this subject regarding this particular event which I did not see as abuse. Nothing you said made me ill........hugs girl!

Of course children need boundaries, discipline, rules, and the like. Children should indeed respect their parents simply because they are their parents.

But parents likewise ought to be able to establish those boundaries and feelings of respect without resorting to force, cruelty, and harsh intimidation.

I knew some that definately needed that......my cousin for one. He responed very favorably to a more military-like upbringing than the one my aunt was giving him. Some people honestly need that in their life and there is nothing wrong with it.

[keltic 1]

since when is shoving something into a childs mouth to the point of causing choking NOT abuse? choking can cause DEATH.. hello?!?!?!?!?!?

and where did gimy say that she was screaming at the woman?

Ok change screaming to berating.

And if the mother was REALLY choking the kid by shoving food in her mouth...if the mother would endanger her daughter to that degree...do you think a stern talking to is gonna fix it?

Seriously. I'm curious.

ok, you are all right... gimy should have just let the woman shove food down the childs mouth until she choked to the point of death and not say a word... its better than possibly offending the mother

maybe gimys response might have given someone who was watching, or even involved, a glimmer of hope that someone else in the world might actually give a damn about a total stranger... lets hope that if any of you are ever in a position of danger that someone will stop and at least try to help you

Keltic, please don't take offense to what I'm saying here.

My argument is not one of 'oh she shouldnt; have offended'...my argument is if the mother is capable of choking a child to the point its such a spectacle, the cops should have been called. Not some beratement from a stranger & then being sent on your merry way. Even Gimy acknowledges that the mother will prolly continue her behavior, so how much help was given, really?

and what i am saying is that at least she tried... more than the other folks in the restaurant...

yes, calling the police would have been more effective, but at least she tried something...

and, frankly, what i take offense to is the general sense of parenting rights being all supreme... thats just not the case... that is why we have all these family laws... they werent made because noone was ever doing wrong... we dont have family services being called in to protect children because no mother/father ever harmed her child... often times those parents dont think they are doing anything wrong... that doesnt make them right

i work with babies... i see some VERY dysfunctional families... and it is my RESPONSIBILITY to protect others... i see a lot of abuse and all those parents also think they have a supreme right to do as they please with their genetic offspring

[KarenCee 3]

Fuzzness talking here....

First of all, I *DO* have a right to tell you how to raise your kids!!!!! Doesn't mean I should most of the time, but in extreme cases I will.

Secondly, you do *NOT* have the right to abuse a person, child or adult, man or woman, whatever. Shoving food down someones throat is abuse, and keeping on doing it once they are gagging is even more abuse.

If I do see someone abusing a child, I will do something. If you don't like it, call the ###### police. we'll see who the police sides with.

And another thing, a child should *NEVER* be afraid of their parents, OR anyone in a position of power. Parents should be there to guide children in the right direction AND to protect them.

And whoever said choking someone was not a life threatening situation, think again. People have DIED from choking.

If you see abuse happening and you do nothing, you are guilty like the abuser. I know that's a cliche, but it's a good one.

sigh... and yes, i have restrained myself...

[Jenn! 918]

And another thing, a child should *NEVER* be afraid of their parents, OR anyone in a position of power.

Do you at least recognize that this is a subjective point? I, for one, do not feel that way.

[Fandango 1,440]

Fuzzness talking here....

First of all, I *DO* have a right to tell you how to raise your kids!!!!! Doesn't mean I should most of the time, but in extreme cases I will.

Secondly, you do *NOT* have the right to abuse a person, child or adult, man or woman, whatever. Shoving food down someones throat is abuse, and keeping on doing it once they are gagging is even more abuse.

If I do see someone abusing a child, I will do something. If you don't like it, call the ###### police. we'll see who the police sides with.

And another thing, a child should *NEVER* be afraid of their parents, OR anyone in a position of power. Parents should be there to guide children in the right direction AND to protect them.

And whoever said choking someone was not a life threatening situation, think again. People have DIED from choking.

If you see abuse happening and you do nothing, you are guilty like the abuser. I know that's a cliche, but it's a good one.

sigh... and yes, i have restrained myself...

Fuzz...why do you think no one called the police if a mother was choking her child? Seriously...why did no one...including Gimy...call the police?

No one's saying a parent has the right to abuse a child...and I would be the first one to step in if I thought a child was in danger. But I have to question just how much danger was that child in if the mother was allowed to walk away scot-free?

In fact, I'll go one further and say that if the mother was a bona fide child abuser with anger issues, the public beratement prolly (IMO) did more harm than good because the mother will then take it out on the child as it being all her fault that the mother was chastized in the first place.

Edited June 1, 2006 by LisaD

[KarenCee 3]

And another thing, a child should *NEVER* be afraid of their parents, OR anyone in a position of power.

Do you at least recognize that this is a subjective point? I, for one, do not feel that way.

That was Joel responding there...as he stated before he posted his opinion.

And no...why do I need to recognize this as a subjective point? Do you want your child afraid of you? I'm through with this.