The United States of America - my thoughts so far

[jundp 191]

Yes that's the concept -- I don't even have umlauts on my keyboard so that was as close as I could get

I could never really feel how the outside world sees Britain and I am sure no American can see how America is viewed from outside. I can assure you that every European feels intimidated by all the flag waving though - whether it's meant to be 'triumph of the wills' or not, it sure looks like it and I don't know any foreigner who doesn't think so - unless they are North Korean or something

When the US says it has the right to come and get British Bankers using bounty hunters and fly them to the US with or without extradition, then that sends a message that the US is superior and can do as it wants. Extraordinary rendition and torture too sends the message that the US does not care about world opinion and being part of the international community and is again superior and above everything

I have noticed anyone wanting to discuss differences being described as a 'whiner'. I know it's common in the US because when I ask my wife if she is ready, she says I am whining. I can assure you that it is highly offensive outside the US as it reduces the person to the status of a dog and would be fighting talk in the UK

I know not many Americans need to know that as less than 40% have passports and as Homer Simpson says 'Why should I learn English - I am not planning to go to England'

I've actually never known anyone to take offense to use of the word "whining" and my non-USC friends are usually the ones who use that word

Anyway, it wasn't meant offensively, and clearly most Americans on this board are open to new cultures or we wouldn't be in international relationships. I just think, unfortunately that many non-USC's get stuck on US stereotypes. Yes, stereotypes exist for a reason, but not all of them are accurate.

[palilover 1]

Yes I forgot to say that although the level of Nationalism in the U.S. is the first thing that surprises and dismays Europeans, we are wrong to see it as the resurgance of Nazism (which it does very much look like), because it's meant to unify all the gangs and nationalities and the wide geographic spread of the country. So while it's an internal thing, I am sure it has been very beneficial and has succeeded and made a Minnesota Polish Miner feel at one with a Southern cotton pickin' red neck. When it comes to snearing at the French or trivialising the Brits or CNN saying that Americans got the most olympic medals without mentioning who got the most golds, (China got twice as many as the USA), it's a negative thing and can be the driving force behind triumphalism and imperialism which the Brits did the most of in the past. Dollar imperialism like Georgia/Ukraine and getting the foreigners to die for you is just as dangerous.

So I can see a reason for it all - but once it has fulfilled it's purpose of unifying, it can only burst outwards on the world and categorize the world as citizens and non-citizens which is what the romans did - or mench and untermench in Hitler's terms - so I reckon a degree of internationalism and scaling back of massed ranks of huge flags (even for a meeting of the town council of nowhersville) would be a good idea - I wouldn't dare propose it though !

I don't think there's anything nearly close to patriotism in America and Nazism from Germany ca. 1939-1945. I agree with some of what you have posted about stereotypes (except the part about Washington being backwater....!!!) but some of it just sounds like whining about the differences between the US and your own country.

There's patriotism and pride, and then there's nationalism. Not all of us who proudly recite the pledge of allegiance have some sort of Nationalistic sense. We saw what Nationalism did in Ireland and Germany...no thank you. But there is a sense of community and patriotism that unifies in one sense.

Did you mean Übermensch and Untermensch in reference to Hitler?

What do you get when you get an american, a german, and a british person discussing antionalism? A thread gone bad really quick I'm afraid, lol

While I do agree with both points made, I do have to say that nationalism, although not as spread as it once was, is everywhere. It is not to the scale it was in Germany, yet it is still there in all parts of the world. But I think there is a difference between just being proud of your own country/people/whatever without the need to hate others. Unfortunately what we see in the world today is what I'd consider to be "blind nationalism" or "blind patriotism". Many people who are flying their flags have never gone outside of the US! I saw that in KY as I was living and working in KY when 9/11 happened. All of a sudden everyone was proud to be American and hated otehr countries and wanted to bomb the whole middle east!

Give me a break. On 9/10, they were watching MTV and guzzling beers and teh local bar. Now all of a sudden, they all want to bomb the middle east, yet the peole who talked like that did not join teh mmilitary to fight for their country as they said "we" need to do. that is what I do not like is that people say we should do this and that but yet they let others do it for them.

I dont think talking about differences is whining. Maybe you are right that it varies from culture to culture tough. It really all depends on the mentality and civility of the people in the discussion. I think it is interesting tos ee other people's viewpoints about America though. I don't know why, I'm weird like that:)

You can make umlauts on an english keyboard I think but you need to know the keystrokes to do it. I'm too lazy to memorize them so I don't know and I just do it as you do it:)

Yes that's the concept -- I don't even have umlauts on my keyboard so that was as close as I could get

I could never really feel how the outside world sees Britain and I am sure no American can see how America is viewed from outside. I can assure you that every European feels intimidated by all the flag waving though - whether it's meant to be 'triumph of the wills' or not, it sure looks like it and I don't know any foreigner who doesn't think so - unless they are North Korean or something

When the US says it has the right to come and get British Bankers using bounty hunters and fly them to the US with or without extradition, then that sends a message that the US is superior and can do as it wants. Extraordinary rendition and torture too sends the message that the US does not care about world opinion and being part of the international community and is again superior and above everything

I have noticed anyone wanting to discuss differences being described as a 'whiner'. I know it's common in the US because when I ask my wife if she is ready, she says I am whining. I can assure you that it is highly offensive outside the US as it reduces the person to the status of a dog and would be fighting talk in the UK

I know not many Americans need to know that as less than 40% have passports and as Homer Simpson says 'Why should I learn English - I am not planning to go to England'

I've actually never known anyone to take offense to use of the word "whining" and my non-USC friends are usually the ones who use that word

Anyway, it wasn't meant offensively, and clearly most Americans on this board are open to new cultures or we wouldn't be in international relationships. I just think, unfortunately that many non-USC's get stuck on US stereotypes. Yes, stereotypes exist for a reason, but not all of them are accurate.

yes but in all fairness, don't many USC's get stuck on stereotypes as well with other cultures? It's all about how you deal with it really.

[jundp 191]

yes but in all fairness, don't many USC's get stuck on stereotypes as well with other cultures? It's all about how you deal with it really.

Yes many do. It's just frustrating when someone is complaining about the US using typical stereotypes but not taking the time to see if such stereotypes are true.

Or maybe I'm stereotyping?

I just didn't like the references to Hitler and the Nazis (twice). I think it's unnecessary as well as over-board.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Well, I know Allan likes to exaggerate for comic effect but they way he describes this country doesn't sound at all like my life here in the US, though I'm sure aspects of it are there.

As for "nationalism" and complaining about how CNN reported the medal tally at the Olympics all I'm going to say is.....I lived in the UK for 2 World Cups, 3 European Cups and 9 Five Nation Rugby Tournaments

[VisaJourneyLady 33]

One of our favourite sports in Ireland was to watch how sports involving Irish people (north and south) were reported on the BBC. Quite often Irish people were called British when they won, and Irish when they lost. It was cringe inducing, and most noticable with people like Eddie Irvine from the North, but who lived in Dublin, and had an Irish passport. He was switching nationalities with his places on the podium.

[palilover 1]

Well, I know Allan likes to exaggerate for comic effect but they way he describes this country doesn't sound at all like my life here in the US, though I'm sure aspects of it are there.

As for "nationalism" and complaining about how CNN reported the medal tally at the Olympics all I'm going to say is.....I lived in the UK for 2 World Cups, 3 European Cups and 9 Five Nation Rugby Tournaments

[elmcitymaven 9,711]

As for "nationalism" and complaining about how CNN reported the medal tally at the Olympics all I'm going to say is.....I lived in the UK for 2 World Cups, 3 European Cups and 9 Five Nation Rugby Tournaments

Word. Nothing like drunk Englishmen singing Jerusalem at 1am walking down your street after winning some poxy qualifier...

[SterlingGirl 1]

Hmm. Not sure if I can really empathize - my fiance was here for a month, in Mississippi. He did notice that there were churches sometimes spaced only a mile apart. He noticed that summer weather here feels pretty near Malaysian. He noticed the pretty rampant, open Christianity (with "Jesus saves" T-shirts in Wal-Mart). More than anything, he was amused. He didn't approach it with any stand-offish, snobbish disdain, but actual fascination that, yes, "some" of the stereotypes were true.

But, as a Londoner most of his life, he also noticed that people were genuinely friendly. He noticed that there weren't idiots damned near ready to gut each other over the outcome of a football (or soccer) game, nor was the same true for "our" version of football. He noticed there weren't literal roving gangs of kids whose mothers wouldn't discipline them slashing peoples' tires or beating up people for cell phones or stoning old men to death just for the joy of it. He noticed that, in general, there was less a level of squalor that people lived in - even IF they lived in trailers, in keeping with more common stereotypes. He noticed that, after adjusting for inflation, he wasn't absolutely shafted on electronics or videogames, and that a fairly modest tax was added to purchases after being rung up, rather than already built-in with a rather bloated VAT on pretty much everything. He noticed that shops stayed open sometimes all night. He noticed that there were restaurants with free drink refills, and waitstaff who didn't look at you as if they wished you'd simply drop dead into your mashed potatoes. He noticed there was actually a pub or two that served pretty true-to-form Scotch eggs, which he loves.

He noticed that my friends were down-to-earth, even if some were Christian - and that he didn't necessarily have to completely "avoid" all Christians, as we're both atheists, but that some were actually decent people. He knows through me that, while one would have to drive about an hour out of Jackson to obtain an abortion, it's in a college town where people would quite literally throw themselves in FRONT of any idiot who would be so dense as to try and shoot someone for having one. And - mentioning this twice, since it was such a breath of fresh air for him - no football idiots causing rows, calling up for a cab and acting like a total staff about it, barely intelligible accents combined with the slur of alcohol . . . basically, he fully realised that there were things he outright despised about England. And while he's certainly not about to slap a "Proud to be an American" sticker on his non-existent SUV, he was able to view America without such a . . . European bent on it.

I warned him well enough about some of our peculiarities, and came to find out that his trip here was like a virtual paradise. But, that's because he's probably only had three people in his entire lifetime in England who didn't annoy the utter bejesus out of him with all those specific things that are so common TO England. He had a blast telling friends of mine who were "so jealous that he got to live in London" how much they'd truly HATE it, at least if they had to live there for any length of time. Of course, this is coming from someone who had to share a flat with a bunch of drunken, loud douchebags, one of whom left feces in a pair of shoes, and another who left some in an elevator.

So I guess it's all in how you look at it. My fiance couldn't be happier about escaping what he calls "that rock". Different strokes to move the world, I guess.

[palilover 1]

As for "nationalism" and complaining about how CNN reported the medal tally at the Olympics all I'm going to say is.....I lived in the UK for 2 World Cups, 3 European Cups and 9 Five Nation Rugby Tournaments

Word. Nothing like drunk Englishmen singing Jerusalem at 1am walking down your street after winning some poxy qualifier...

Jerusalem by Blind Guardian????? That would be hilarious if thats the song I'm thinking about, lol

[palilover 1]

Hmm. Not sure if I can really empathize - my fiance was here for a month, in Mississippi. He did notice that there were churches sometimes spaced only a mile apart. He noticed that summer weather here feels pretty near Malaysian. He noticed the pretty rampant, open Christianity (with "Jesus saves" T-shirts in Wal-Mart). More than anything, he was amused. He didn't approach it with any stand-offish, snobbish disdain, but actual fascination that, yes, "some" of the stereotypes were true.

But, as a Londoner most of his life, he also noticed that people were genuinely friendly. He noticed that there weren't idiots damned near ready to gut each other over the outcome of a football (or soccer) game, nor was the same true for "our" version of football. He noticed there weren't literal roving gangs of kids whose mothers wouldn't discipline them slashing peoples' tires or beating up people for cell phones or stoning old men to death just for the joy of it. He noticed that, in general, there was less a level of squalor that people lived in - even IF they lived in trailers, in keeping with more common stereotypes. He noticed that, after adjusting for inflation, he wasn't absolutely shafted on electronics or videogames, and that a fairly modest tax was added to purchases after being rung up, rather than already built-in with a rather bloated VAT on pretty much everything. He noticed that shops stayed open sometimes all night. He noticed that there were restaurants with free drink refills, and waitstaff who didn't look at you as if they wished you'd simply drop dead into your mashed potatoes. He noticed there was actually a pub or two that served pretty true-to-form Scotch eggs, which he loves.

He noticed that my friends were down-to-earth, even if some were Christian - and that he didn't necessarily have to completely "avoid" all Christians, as we're both atheists, but that some were actually decent people. He knows through me that, while one would have to drive about an hour out of Jackson to obtain an abortion, it's in a college town where people would quite literally throw themselves in FRONT of any idiot who would be so dense as to try and shoot someone for having one. And - mentioning this twice, since it was such a breath of fresh air for him - no football idiots causing rows, calling up for a cab and acting like a total staff about it, barely intelligible accents combined with the slur of alcohol . . . basically, he fully realised that there were things he outright despised about England. And while he's certainly not about to slap a "Proud to be an American" sticker on his non-existent SUV, he was able to view America without such a . . . European bent on it.

I warned him well enough about some of our peculiarities, and came to find out that his trip here was like a virtual paradise. But, that's because he's probably only had three people in his entire lifetime in England who didn't annoy the utter bejesus out of him with all those specific things that are so common TO England. He had a blast telling friends of mine who were "so jealous that he got to live in London" how much they'd truly HATE it, at least if they had to live there for any length of time. Of course, this is coming from someone who had to share a flat with a bunch of drunken, loud douchebags, one of whom left feces in a pair of shoes, and another who left some in an elevator.

So I guess it's all in how you look at it. My fiance couldn't be happier about escaping what he calls "that rock". Different strokes to move the world, I guess.

Someone took a freaking dump in a pair of freaking shoes? Now thats what I call wasted!! I cant blame the guy for wanting out now:) And my friends thought it bad of me to have left a taquito in someone's shoe when I was drunk a few years ago:) If they only knew what someone was doing in someone else's shoes across the world, they would not complain about a cold taquito:) lol

[elmcitymaven 9,711]

Jerusalem by Blind Guardian????? That would be hilarious if thats the song I'm thinking about, lol

Nope. As in the William Blake poem set to music, sung by the Women's Institute, etc etc.

[jundp 191]

One of our favourite sports in Ireland was to watch how sports involving Irish people (north and south) were reported on the BBC. Quite often Irish people were called British when they won, and Irish when they lost. It was cringe inducing, and most noticable with people like Eddie Irvine from the North, but who lived in Dublin, and had an Irish passport. He was switching nationalities with his places on the podium.

I know it's not really funny, but that sentence did make me laugh! Maybe because I've spent time in Ireland and I can envision the reactions, whereas I've never been to England.

[Damian P 92]

Hmm. Not sure if I can really empathize - my fiance was here for a month, in Mississippi. He did notice that there were churches sometimes spaced only a mile apart. He noticed that summer weather here feels pretty near Malaysian. He noticed the pretty rampant, open Christianity (with "Jesus saves" T-shirts in Wal-Mart). More than anything, he was amused. He didn't approach it with any stand-offish, snobbish disdain, but actual fascination that, yes, "some" of the stereotypes were true.

But, as a Londoner most of his life, he also noticed that people were genuinely friendly. He noticed that there weren't idiots damned near ready to gut each other over the outcome of a football (or soccer) game, nor was the same true for "our" version of football. He noticed there weren't literal roving gangs of kids whose mothers wouldn't discipline them slashing peoples' tires or beating up people for cell phones or stoning old men to death just for the joy of it. He noticed that, in general, there was less a level of squalor that people lived in - even IF they lived in trailers, in keeping with more common stereotypes. He noticed that, after adjusting for inflation, he wasn't absolutely shafted on electronics or videogames, and that a fairly modest tax was added to purchases after being rung up, rather than already built-in with a rather bloated VAT on pretty much everything. He noticed that shops stayed open sometimes all night. He noticed that there were restaurants with free drink refills, and waitstaff who didn't look at you as if they wished you'd simply drop dead into your mashed potatoes. He noticed there was actually a pub or two that served pretty true-to-form Scotch eggs, which he loves.

He noticed that my friends were down-to-earth, even if some were Christian - and that he didn't necessarily have to completely "avoid" all Christians, as we're both atheists, but that some were actually decent people. He knows through me that, while one would have to drive about an hour out of Jackson to obtain an abortion, it's in a college town where people would quite literally throw themselves in FRONT of any idiot who would be so dense as to try and shoot someone for having one. And - mentioning this twice, since it was such a breath of fresh air for him - no football idiots causing rows, calling up for a cab and acting like a total staff about it, barely intelligible accents combined with the slur of alcohol . . . basically, he fully realised that there were things he outright despised about England. And while he's certainly not about to slap a "Proud to be an American" sticker on his non-existent SUV, he was able to view America without such a . . . European bent on it.

I warned him well enough about some of our peculiarities, and came to find out that his trip here was like a virtual paradise. But, that's because he's probably only had three people in his entire lifetime in England who didn't annoy the utter bejesus out of him with all those specific things that are so common TO England. He had a blast telling friends of mine who were "so jealous that he got to live in London" how much they'd truly HATE it, at least if they had to live there for any length of time. Of course, this is coming from someone who had to share a flat with a bunch of drunken, loud douchebags, one of whom left feces in a pair of shoes, and another who left some in an elevator.

So I guess it's all in how you look at it. My fiance couldn't be happier about escaping what he calls "that rock". Different strokes to move the world, I guess.

This post just about sums it up for me too, Sterling Girl. The U.S. may not be perfect, but by God, it's a much better option than the U.K. I'd also like to state that the "flag waving" refered to by the OP, I find quite inspiring. I had season tickets at St Louis Rams for a couple of years, and never ceased to be amazed at the sea of stars and stripes encircling the stadium, not to mention the impressive military displays down on the pitch. Conversely, I find the attitude of local councils here in Britain with regard to the flying of the St George cross during international football tournaments (whereby many people are prohibited from doing so for fear of "offending" ethnic minorities) quite disgusting.

Also, I totally admire and respect the way U.S. society, pretty much from top to bottom, displays its gratitude to its armed forces in such a public and colourful manner. Compare that to the story of the squaddies here based in Peterborough, who were advised by their commanding officers not to go into the town centre wearing their uniforms for fear of reprisals from scruffy, idle, work shy, tree-hugging pieces of ####.

No, I like the good 'ol U S of A just fine thank you very much.

Edited August 26, 2008 by Damian P

[Laura+Tom 2]

Hmm. Not sure if I can really empathize - my fiance was here for a month, in Mississippi. He did notice that there were churches sometimes spaced only a mile apart. He noticed that summer weather here feels pretty near Malaysian. He noticed the pretty rampant, open Christianity (with "Jesus saves" T-shirts in Wal-Mart). More than anything, he was amused. He didn't approach it with any stand-offish, snobbish disdain, but actual fascination that, yes, "some" of the stereotypes were true.

But, as a Londoner most of his life, he also noticed that people were genuinely friendly. He noticed that there weren't idiots damned near ready to gut each other over the outcome of a football (or soccer) game, nor was the same true for "our" version of football. He noticed there weren't literal roving gangs of kids whose mothers wouldn't discipline them slashing peoples' tires or beating up people for cell phones or stoning old men to death just for the joy of it. He noticed that, in general, there was less a level of squalor that people lived in - even IF they lived in trailers, in keeping with more common stereotypes. He noticed that, after adjusting for inflation, he wasn't absolutely shafted on electronics or videogames, and that a fairly modest tax was added to purchases after being rung up, rather than already built-in with a rather bloated VAT on pretty much everything. He noticed that shops stayed open sometimes all night. He noticed that there were restaurants with free drink refills, and waitstaff who didn't look at you as if they wished you'd simply drop dead into your mashed potatoes. He noticed there was actually a pub or two that served pretty true-to-form Scotch eggs, which he loves.

He noticed that my friends were down-to-earth, even if some were Christian - and that he didn't necessarily have to completely "avoid" all Christians, as we're both atheists, but that some were actually decent people. He knows through me that, while one would have to drive about an hour out of Jackson to obtain an abortion, it's in a college town where people would quite literally throw themselves in FRONT of any idiot who would be so dense as to try and shoot someone for having one. And - mentioning this twice, since it was such a breath of fresh air for him - no football idiots causing rows, calling up for a cab and acting like a total staff about it, barely intelligible accents combined with the slur of alcohol . . . basically, he fully realised that there were things he outright despised about England. And while he's certainly not about to slap a "Proud to be an American" sticker on his non-existent SUV, he was able to view America without such a . . . European bent on it.

I warned him well enough about some of our peculiarities, and came to find out that his trip here was like a virtual paradise. But, that's because he's probably only had three people in his entire lifetime in England who didn't annoy the utter bejesus out of him with all those specific things that are so common TO England. He had a blast telling friends of mine who were "so jealous that he got to live in London" how much they'd truly HATE it, at least if they had to live there for any length of time. Of course, this is coming from someone who had to share a flat with a bunch of drunken, loud douchebags, one of whom left feces in a pair of shoes, and another who left some in an elevator.

So I guess it's all in how you look at it. My fiance couldn't be happier about escaping what he calls "that rock". Different strokes to move the world, I guess.

This post just about sums it up for me too, Sterling Girl. The U.S. may not be perfect, but by God, it's a much better option than the U.K. I'd also like to state that the "flag waving" refered to by the OP, I find quite inspiring. I had season tickets at St Louis Rams for a couple of years, and never ceased to be amazed at the sea of stars and stripes encircling the stadium, not to mention the impressive military displays down on the pitch. Conversely, I find the attitude of local councils here in Britain with regard to the flying of the St George cross during international football tournaments (whereby many people are prohibited from doing so for fear of "offending" ethnic minorities) quite disgusting.

Also, I totally admire and respect the way U.S. society, pretty much from top to bottom, displays its gratitude to its armed forces in such a public and colourful manner. Compare that to the story of the squaddies here based in Peterborough, who were advised by their commanding officers not to go into the town centre wearing their uniforms for fear of reprisals from scruffy, idle, work shy, tree-hugging pieces of ####.

No, I like the good 'ol U S of A just fine thank you very much.

Yes, I too am full of admiration the US has for it's troops. I wish we had that here. My father is in the Royal Air Force, my mother is ex Womens Royal Air Force and I work on an RAF base and sometimes it's shocking the things that you hear about (I live 20mins from Peterborough too). I once worked at an American base here in the UK and couple that with my OH being in the USAF, I see a huge difference. We once went to Sealife Center in Fl and before a show I was amazed they asked serving members of the US forces and allied forces to stand up and be recognised for what they do, it made you feel so proud. Hopefully the British Government get their act together, sometimes I am ashamed to say I work for them.

Edited August 26, 2008 by LauraUK

[Gemmie 142]

Me and my fiancee have had this discussion many many times.

I go through periods of complaining about the US and it's shortcomings and periods of excitement about the good points of the country. Whenever I'm in the mood for the former, it usually starts a little arguement as he defends it. He claims he's not patriotic though and that fuels the fire because that's the number one gripe.

I complain about how much of an outsider *I* personally feel just going down the street when there are a million American flags waving in yards, outside stores, on bumper stickers... you'd never see that in the UK. Hell, Boston ALONE has a sense of patriotism about it, and I lose count of the number of Red Sox shirts I see, even when outside of the city. He argues that when it comes to football games, they don't start international brawls over simply being American, like the British do. I complain that I find the religious aspects quite tiring. I used to consider myself a Christian, though recently I've been distancing myself while I try to figure out exactly what I believe; there's not really any escaping it over there. I call it brainwashing; how hard must it be NOT to be religious in a country where God is involved in everything you do... there are countless churches and private Christian schools... he calls it no different than any British family that have strict religious beliefs. I agree to some extent, though it's never as obvious over here. I complain about the weather and how I sometimes find it difficult just to leave the house because it's so damn hot in the summer, and so freezing in the winter... though the first thing Americans often mention about the UK are the clouds/rain. I complain about the acceptance for obesity whilst poking fun at dental practice in the UK.

Having said that though, I read that going through periods of finding fault is a result of identity crisis; for example, Brits that go on holiday to the US often say that it was nice but they wouldn't like to live there. For people like us that are leaving everything behind to move to the US where everything is different, you worry that you'll lose your identity. Perhaps not your personality, but rather everything that is familiar. It's a natural way to try to hold on to everything that you know... to point out the flaws in everything you don't know. I try to find comfort in that... and the times where I'm in the US and start liking the country a little, it gives me some good faith that things aren't so bad.

Edited August 26, 2008 by Gemmie