The United States of America - my thoughts so far

[Captain Oates 910]

The original poster returns....

The American posters who cannot stand any opinion which includes any criticism of their country, should know that I, and many other Brits who are here in the U.S. are here through our own free will and therefore on balance, we want to be here, rather than the U.K. for now - so it must be 'better' in some way for want of another word.

I think Brits are only too aware of the downside to British society, but because we haven't been brainwashed in classrooms where we stand in front of the flag with gold braid and an eagle on the top, and put our hands on our hearts and chant some conformist script every morning, we are able to take criticism, and many like to explore the opinions of outsiders and are not automatically defensive

I intensely dislike the British Council Estates and the attitude of most who live there (I lived there 10 years myself and lived mostly on beans and chips while I was doing my professional studies). I don't resent anyone decribing them.

In Swansea I was called a 'Saxon' and derided. In Scotland the drunks shot air rifles at my fishing float when they realised I was English. So I know about racism in the U.K. (The other UK countries call it Nationalism)

I am very pleasantly surprised by the replies to this thread as nobody has said ' If there is ANYTHING you want to criticize then go home'. I accept that looking towards the positive is more productive than dwelling on the negative, but if this is going to be a full experience then I want to see all sides of America and not just beautiful clean young cheerleaders who believe in god and stay virgins until marriage and would not dream of having a beer until they are 21 and sleep with a sweet smile on their faces dreaming with pleasure about going to school the next day.

A real life 'Fonz' would probably try and sell you cocaine or mug you in an alley so I want to experience the reality rather continue with the myth.

I plan to take the best of both societies and play by the rules and one day possibly have summers in Cornwall and winters in san diego and live happily ever after.

I think if I become a citizen, it will be harder for me to dismiss the stuff I don't like. Right now I just look at the telly or indeed my small town center and see people dressed in orange suits being dragged along in manacles and leg irons with waist chains and huge fat lumbering policemen with big guns and I think 'Glad it isn't my country'. If I was a citizen then I could not afford myself that detachment

So on the whole it's ok and I am doing fine except when it comes to dentists bills - I blew my 2k limit in a month !

Forget god and society and vulgarity and guns and history - what about my dentists bills !

Edited August 25, 2008 by saywhat

[ginger1981 0]

The original poster returns....

The American posters who cannot stand any opinion which includes any criticism of their country, should know that I, and many other Brits who are here in the U.S. are here through our own free will and therefore on balance, we want to be here, rather than the U.K. for now - so it must be 'better' in some way for want of another word.

I think Brits are only too aware of the downside to British society, but because we haven't been brainwashed in classrooms where we stand in front of the flag with gold braid and an eagle on the top, and put our hands on our hearts and chant some conformist script every morning, we are able to take criticism, and many like to explore the opinions of outsiders and are not automatically defensive.

I don't think that saying the pledge is completely a bad thing. I think it has pros and cons...it can build pride and solidarity with people no matter where you are from in the US, but for some others they take their love of country quite literally - as in the US can do nothing wrong.

I think the real problem is that kids are not taught critical thinking skills at a young enough age. It's one thing to memorize a few lines, but it is another to examine it and come to a conclusion of what US citizenship really means. At least where I went to school we didn't do this until our senior year. But a lot of kids are either not encouraged to give it any thought or they are heavily influenced to think of the US as some sort of land blessed by god that makes it superior to other countries in the world (ie Danesh D'Souza types).

So on the whole it's ok and I am doing fine except when it comes to dentists bills - I blew my 2k limit in a month !

Forget god and society and vulgarity and guns and history - what about my dentists bills !

Ughfff...I don't even want to think about dentist bills. I'm still paying off my bill from the last time I went....6 cavities!

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

The dentist bills is what you get for having English teeth

[ginger1981 0]

The dentist bills is what you get for having English teeth

Hahaha...i'm the USC and I'm the one with the mega dentist bill! My dentist said the reason why I had so many was due to the sealents my parents had applied to my teeth when I was younger. She said that she's been seeing this more and more with people in my age group...who would have been one of the first generations of sealent reciepients. Apparently what happens is as you get older, the sealent wears down and cracks. Bacteria and crud gets into the crack and under the sealant and no amount of brushing is going to be able to get it out. When I was in she basically removed what was left of the sealent and filled in the cavities...if I continue to be diligent I hopefully shouldn't have too many problems in the future.

[Captain Oates 910]

The original poster returns....

The American posters who cannot stand any opinion which includes any criticism of their country, should know that I, and many other Brits who are here in the U.S. are here through our own free will and therefore on balance, we want to be here, rather than the U.K. for now - so it must be 'better' in some way for want of another word.

I think Brits are only too aware of the downside to British society, but because we haven't been brainwashed in classrooms where we stand in front of the flag with gold braid and an eagle on the top, and put our hands on our hearts and chant some conformist script every morning, we are able to take criticism, and many like to explore the opinions of outsiders and are not automatically defensive.

I don't think that saying the pledge is completely a bad thing. I think it has pros and cons...it can build pride and solidarity with people no matter where you are from in the US, but for some others they take their love of country quite literally - as in the US can do nothing wrong.

I think the real problem is that kids are not taught critical thinking skills at a young enough age. It's one thing to memorize a few lines, but it is another to examine it and come to a conclusion of what US citizenship really means. At least where I went to school we didn't do this until our senior year. But a lot of kids are either not encouraged to give it any thought or they are heavily influenced to think of the US as some sort of land blessed by god that makes it superior to other countries in the world (ie Danesh D'Souza types).

So on the whole it's ok and I am doing fine except when it comes to dentists bills - I blew my 2k limit in a month !

Forget god and society and vulgarity and guns and history - what about my dentists bills !

Ughfff...I don't even want to think about dentist bills. I'm still paying off my bill from the last time I went....6 cavities!

Yes I forgot to say that although the level of Nationalism in the U.S. is the first thing that surprises and dismays Europeans, we are wrong to see it as the resurgance of Nazism (which it does very much look like), because it's meant to unify all the gangs and nationalities and the wide geographic spread of the country. So while it's an internal thing, I am sure it has been very beneficial and has succeeded and made a Minnesota Polish Miner feel at one with a Southern cotton pickin' red neck. When it comes to snearing at the French or trivialising the Brits or CNN saying that Americans got the most olympic medals without mentioning who got the most golds, (China got twice as many as the USA), it's a negative thing and can be the driving force behind triumphalism and imperialism which the Brits did the most of in the past. Dollar imperialism like Georgia/Ukraine and getting the foreigners to die for you is just as dangerous.

So I can see a reason for it all - but once it has fulfilled it's purpose of unifying, it can only burst outwards on the world and categorize the world as citizens and non-citizens which is what the romans did - or mench and untermench in Hitler's terms - so I reckon a degree of internationalism and scaling back of massed ranks of huge flags (even for a meeting of the town council of nowhersville) would be a good idea - I wouldn't dare propose it though !

[Captain Oates 910]

The dentist bills is what you get for having English teeth

I think you are making my point for me. That kind of nationalist remark is exactly what I am talking about in part.

Implying that the US consists of beautiful slim, white toothed people , while filthy foreigners have green teeth, is where the US is going down the wrong road.

I was brought up for 6 years under strict food rationing after the war when sticky molassess was our sweets

We didnt have fluoride either and neither did the USA

Perhaps if the US had chosen sides and gotten into the war earlier and tried harder instead of letting the Russians win it for them, losing 20 million dead doing it, and getting into Berlin forcing Hitler's suicide, food rationing would have been necessary here too

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Now, now Allan - I was joking. No need to invoke the nazis just yet.

[Captain Oates 910]

Now, now Allan - I was joking. No need to invoke the nazis just yet.

I always think it's funny when Americans say that me and my countrymen have green teeth - it's just a little joke after all and the kind they could take in good grace

I see more Americans toothless than Brits, but many of em are not white so that seems of little importance in this society

Things have not changed much since the Brits refused to surrender to the handful of American troops at Yorktown in the final battle of the war of independence - and preferred to surrender to the French regulars who were the vast majority of the 'American' army

Weird how the Americans dislike the French - they would be watching the Queen's speech at 3pm on xmas day if it wasnt for them

Actually, I have been inside American Society for much of the last 4 years and it's going European or 'World' in it's thinking at a fast rate. Gay marriage, a national health system, no more executions, state kidnapping and state castrations and torture - it's all coming fast and I won't regret the passing of the Nationalistic ultra right wing tendencies

A good hop skip and a jump and it really could be the best country in the world- then the foreigners would have to shut up and I would be the first to do so

Long live the global village

[palilover 1]

You are very right in what you say. Yep stereotypes do exist and you will get washed out by them if you do not have a thinking brain and/or a means to get away from them. I know this from experience as I am a born American:) But thankfully I was away to get uut and enlighten myself and more people need to be that way.

One thing I've noticed about the US though since I've been to the middle east is that in our culture, anything goes. Granted, it all depends on where you are. But if you want to find it, you will if you look hard enough here. Pick the craziest, most whackiest person and you can find it! And the best part is? Nobody gives a rats a$$ what you do because they know they've seen more crazy because this is America, lol

We need more immigrants here in order to promote free thinking ideas though....to keep things fresh I guess you could say. I don't know if I make any sense here though:)

And even more, funny that you mention that the UK emphasizes the T as opposed to the americans softening it into a D. My husband sometimes has difficulty hearing my "Americanized" English because I say things really fast such as "wader" whereas he would say "water" with a emphasis on the t itself;)

[Captain Oates 910]

You are very right in what you say. Yep stereotypes do exist and you will get washed out by them if you do not have a thinking brain and/or a means to get away from them. I know this from experience as I am a born American:) But thankfully I was away to get uut and enlighten myself and more people need to be that way.

One thing I've noticed about the US though since I've been to the middle east is that in our culture, anything goes. Granted, it all depends on where you are. But if you want to find it, you will if you look hard enough here. Pick the craziest, most whackiest person and you can find it! And the best part is? Nobody gives a rats a$$ what you do because they know they've seen more crazy because this is America, lol

We need more immigrants here in order to promote free thinking ideas though....to keep things fresh I guess you could say. I don't know if I make any sense here though:)

And even more, funny that you mention that the UK emphasizes the T as opposed to the americans softening it into a D. My husband sometimes has difficulty hearing my "Americanized" English because I say things really fast such as "wader" whereas he would say "water" with a emphasis on the t itself;)

I like it when we are driving and my wife says 'warder ?' in a really nonchalant way - it sounds just like clint eastwood saying 'your life' when the baddy asks him what the card game stakes are.

The one thing I CANNOT stand is earth or soil being described as 'dirt' and I break out in a rash and my eyeballs pop out

and i make little noises in my throat like the cat does sometimes

Earth and soil - good

Dirt - bad

If I were president I would make this a felony like holocaust denial in Germany

[palilover 1]

You are very right in what you say. Yep stereotypes do exist and you will get washed out by them if you do not have a thinking brain and/or a means to get away from them. I know this from experience as I am a born American:) But thankfully I was away to get uut and enlighten myself and more people need to be that way.

One thing I've noticed about the US though since I've been to the middle east is that in our culture, anything goes. Granted, it all depends on where you are. But if you want to find it, you will if you look hard enough here. Pick the craziest, most whackiest person and you can find it! And the best part is? Nobody gives a rats a$$ what you do because they know they've seen more crazy because this is America, lol

We need more immigrants here in order to promote free thinking ideas though....to keep things fresh I guess you could say. I don't know if I make any sense here though:)

And even more, funny that you mention that the UK emphasizes the T as opposed to the americans softening it into a D. My husband sometimes has difficulty hearing my "Americanized" English because I say things really fast such as "wader" whereas he would say "water" with a emphasis on the t itself;)

I like it when we are driving and my wife says 'warder ?' in a really nonchalant way - it sounds just like clint eastwood saying 'your life' when the baddy asks him what the card game stakes are.

The one thing I CANNOT stand is earth or soil being described as 'dirt' and I break out in a rash and my eyeballs pop out

and i make little noises in my throat like the cat does sometimes

Earth and soil - good

Dirt - bad

If I were president I would make this a felony like holocaust denial in Germany

LOL I never thought about dirt/soil/earth in such sentimental terms:))

but omg warder? Does she WARSH her dishes too? That accent drives me crazy. I don't speak taht way, but I had a cousin warsh himself......OMG where's th e freaking R people?! lol

[Captain Oates 910]

LOL I never thought about dirt/soil/earth in such sentimental terms:))

but omg warder? Does she WARSH her dishes too? That accent drives me crazy. I don't speak taht way, but I had a cousin warsh himself......OMG where's th e freaking R people?! lol

She is from Racine, Wiscaaaarnsin !

As a kid she was sent to elocution classes to change it from Arkansaw to that !

Everyone thinks she is Canadian when we are traveling abroad and while W is in power she lets em think it

It's not bad actually- not as sophisticated as Barnsley south Yorkshire but better than John Edwards stuff

When walmart told me how delighted they were to see me and I was a very special person and asked me how i was etc etc etc I thought I would throw em with 'fair to middlin' and she nodded, repeated it - she understood it ! I was shocked.

[jundp 191]

Yes I forgot to say that although the level of Nationalism in the U.S. is the first thing that surprises and dismays Europeans, we are wrong to see it as the resurgance of Nazism (which it does very much look like), because it's meant to unify all the gangs and nationalities and the wide geographic spread of the country. So while it's an internal thing, I am sure it has been very beneficial and has succeeded and made a Minnesota Polish Miner feel at one with a Southern cotton pickin' red neck. When it comes to snearing at the French or trivialising the Brits or CNN saying that Americans got the most olympic medals without mentioning who got the most golds, (China got twice as many as the USA), it's a negative thing and can be the driving force behind triumphalism and imperialism which the Brits did the most of in the past. Dollar imperialism like Georgia/Ukraine and getting the foreigners to die for you is just as dangerous.

So I can see a reason for it all - but once it has fulfilled it's purpose of unifying, it can only burst outwards on the world and categorize the world as citizens and non-citizens which is what the romans did - or mench and untermench in Hitler's terms - so I reckon a degree of internationalism and scaling back of massed ranks of huge flags (even for a meeting of the town council of nowhersville) would be a good idea - I wouldn't dare propose it though !

I don't think there's anything nearly close to patriotism in America and Nazism from Germany ca. 1939-1945. I agree with some of what you have posted about stereotypes (except the part about Washington being backwater....!!!) but some of it just sounds like whining about the differences between the US and your own country.

There's patriotism and pride, and then there's nationalism. Not all of us who proudly recite the pledge of allegiance have some sort of Nationalistic sense. We saw what Nationalism did in Ireland and Germany...no thank you. But there is a sense of community and patriotism that unifies in one sense.

Did you mean Übermensch and Untermensch in reference to Hitler?

[Captain Oates 910]

I don't think there's anything nearly close to patriotism in America and Nazism from Germany ca. 1939-1945. I agree with some of what you have posted about stereotypes (except the part about Washington being backwater....!!!) but some of it just sounds like whining about the differences between the US and your own country.

There's patriotism and pride, and then there's nationalism. Not all of us who proudly recite the pledge of allegiance have some sort of Nationalistic sense. We saw what Nationalism did in Ireland and Germany...no thank you. But there is a sense of community and patriotism that unifies in one sense.

Did you mean Übermensch and Untermensch in reference to Hitler?

Yes that's the concept -- I don't even have umlauts on my keyboard so that was as close as I could get

I could never really feel how the outside world sees Britain and I am sure no American can see how America is viewed from outside. I can assure you that every European feels intimidated by all the flag waving though - whether it's meant to be 'triumph of the wills' or not, it sure looks like it and I don't know any foreigner who doesn't think so - unless they are North Korean or something

When the US says it has the right to come and get British Bankers using bounty hunters and fly them to the US with or without extradition, then that sends a message that the US is superior and can do as it wants. Extraordinary rendition and torture too sends the message that the US does not care about world opinion and being part of the international community and is again superior and above everything

I have noticed anyone wanting to discuss differences is described as a 'whiner'. I know it's common in the US because when I ask my wife if she is ready, she says I am whining. I can assure you that it is highly offensive outside the US as it reduces the person to the status of a dog and would be fighting talk in the UK

I know not many Americans need to know that as less than 40% have passports and as Homer Simpson says 'Why should I learn English - I am not planning to go to England'

Edited August 25, 2008 by saywhat

[palilover 1]

Yes I forgot to say that although the level of Nationalism in the U.S. is the first thing that surprises and dismays Europeans, we are wrong to see it as the resurgance of Nazism (which it does very much look like), because it's meant to unify all the gangs and nationalities and the wide geographic spread of the country. So while it's an internal thing, I am sure it has been very beneficial and has succeeded and made a Minnesota Polish Miner feel at one with a Southern cotton pickin' red neck. When it comes to snearing at the French or trivialising the Brits or CNN saying that Americans got the most olympic medals without mentioning who got the most golds, (China got twice as many as the USA), it's a negative thing and can be the driving force behind triumphalism and imperialism which the Brits did the most of in the past. Dollar imperialism like Georgia/Ukraine and getting the foreigners to die for you is just as dangerous.

So I can see a reason for it all - but once it has fulfilled it's purpose of unifying, it can only burst outwards on the world and categorize the world as citizens and non-citizens which is what the romans did - or mench and untermench in Hitler's terms - so I reckon a degree of internationalism and scaling back of massed ranks of huge flags (even for a meeting of the town council of nowhersville) would be a good idea - I wouldn't dare propose it though !

I don't think there's anything nearly close to patriotism in America and Nazism from Germany ca. 1939-1945. I agree with some of what you have posted about stereotypes (except the part about Washington being backwater....!!!) but some of it just sounds like whining about the differences between the US and your own country.

There's patriotism and pride, and then there's nationalism. Not all of us who proudly recite the pledge of allegiance have some sort of Nationalistic sense. We saw what Nationalism did in Ireland and Germany...no thank you. But there is a sense of community and patriotism that unifies in one sense.

Did you mean Übermensch and Untermensch in reference to Hitler?

What do you get when you get an american, a german, and a british person discussing antionalism? A thread gone bad really quick I'm afraid, lol

While I do agree with both points made, I do have to say that nationalism, although not as spread as it once was, is everywhere. It is not to the scale it was in Germany, yet it is still there in all parts of the world. But I think there is a difference between just being proud of your own country/people/whatever without the need to hate others. Unfortunately what we see in the world today is what I'd consider to be "blind nationalism" or "blind patriotism". Many people who are flying their flags have never gone outside of the US! I saw that in KY as I was living and working in KY when 9/11 happened. All of a sudden everyone was proud to be American and hated otehr countries and wanted to bomb the whole middle east!

Give me a break. On 9/10, they were watching MTV and guzzling beers and teh local bar. Now all of a sudden, they all want to bomb the middle east, yet the peole who talked like that did not join teh mmilitary to fight for their country as they said "we" need to do. that is what I do not like is that people say we should do this and that but yet they let others do it for them.