Religious intolerance in the job market

[Captain Oates 910]

I appreciate the postings so far as I am trying to find my feet here in the U.S.

One poster basically said it was ok for such an employer to demand that all the employees should be 'on message' with the aims of the organisation and in this case the aims were religious.

Most other posters are religious people who see christianity as as gentler religion and it should not be so exclusive or prescriptive

One poster mentioned the English style of christianity which is about love and understanding and reaching out to others and this was my background and I still hold on to that culture (despite being an unbeliever in a god) . It was a shock to meet the more militant style in the U.S. where religion can be used as a weapon rather than something gentle.

As a resident I can't go tub thumping and telling Americans what their culture should be, but I think the more that Americans are introduced to wider views, the better the decisions they will make about the direction of things in the U.S.

Coercing people at the cost of their livelihoods was not jesus' way I am pretty sure. When he asked people to throw away their fishing nets and be fishers of people, he didn't say - 'or I will burn them anyway'

The march towards authoritarianism is a one way march and giving actual veto powers to these people rather than them leading by moral example is really dangerous.

The current crop of presidential candidates has plenty of people who are quite capable of pursuing their own churches agenda through actual political power - though they say they will restrain themselves - and its scary.

alan

[chri'stina 190]

I'd also bet it is a Christian organization hiring hence their requirements. Though I worked at World Relief in the past and they didn't require someone be a christian to work there.

But if this is only one instance, you can't generalize about Christians in general in the US. And some people are overly bitter towards Christianity and start throwing around generalizations just as bad as they accuse the Christians of doing against them.

As for diversity at workplaces in the US, my husband works in Tampa and in his office, he(a devout Christian) works with another Indian who is Hindu, someone from Iran who is Muslim, a Mormon, a Jehovah's Witness, and an atheist. They all get along really well too. His may be a rare case.

[Kajikit 65]

But it's not just any job - it's working in the Church (and not just any church - the fundamentalist church...) So nobody who's not a fundamentalist would want to work for them in the first place. The key words there are 'Great Commision' and 'Bible-believing' - not just 'Christian', but a particularly narrow-minded exclusionary type of Christianity. I've been a Christian for twenty years but they wouldn't want me working there either...

If you're a lion-tamer who needs an assistant you're not going to hire the local Persian-breeder to help you just because they're experienced with cats...

(btw part of 'religious freedom' is that the Churches get the right to discriminate against people as much as they want when it comes to who they employ... Joe Average can't get away with it, but Joe Average Ministries can.)

Edited January 23, 2008 by Kajikit

[PlatyPius 5]

If churches can require that you follow their faith, can tobacco companies require that you smoke? Starbucks demand that you only drink their coffee? Porn sites require that you have a certain amount of porn in your home at all times? McDonald's require that you eat nothing but Big Macs and fries?

I worked for HP/Foxconn and didn't own (will never own) an HP computer.

I detest how much Xianity has insinuated itself into society in the US. Why can't we be more like the UK in that regard? I'm f@#$ing tired of driving and seeing "Got Jesus?" signs and other such ####### everywhere. You want Jesus to program your computers? Then f#$%ing hire Jesus, you freaks.

[Captain Oates 910]

I'd also bet it is a Christian organization hiring hence their requirements. Though I worked at World Relief in the past and they didn't require someone be a christian to work there.

But if this is only one instance, you can't generalize about Christians in general in the US. And some people are overly bitter towards Christianity and start throwing around generalizations just as bad as they accuse the Christians of doing against them.

As for diversity at workplaces in the US, my husband works in Tampa and in his office, he(a devout Christian) works with another Indian who is Hindu, someone from Iran who is Muslim, a Mormon, a Jehovah's Witness, and an atheist. They all get along really well too. His may be a rare case.

That's a message of hope and I thank you for it... every outsider fears organisations in the new country which might be out to get him, and thats why the immigrants in the UK fear the national front so much. Perhaps I am doing what they are doing in not realising that the danger is there, but it is a minority and as long as everyone is vigilant about 'take overs', it need not be an everyday fear...

[Sister Fracas 5]

As for diversity at workplaces in the US, my husband works in Tampa and in his office, he(a devout Christian) works with another Indian who is Hindu, someone from Iran who is Muslim, a Mormon, a Jehovah's Witness, and an atheist. They all get along really well too. His may be a rare case.

cool....something for other workplaces to strive for....

[mox 298]

If churches can require that you follow their faith, can tobacco companies require that you smoke? Starbucks demand that you only drink their coffee? Porn sites require that you have a certain amount of porn in your home at all times? McDonald's require that you eat nothing but Big Macs and fries?

I worked for HP/Foxconn and didn't own (will never own) an HP computer.

I detest how much Xianity has insinuated itself into society in the US. Why can't we be more like the UK in that regard? I'm f@#$ing tired of driving and seeing "Got Jesus?" signs and other such ####### everywhere. You want Jesus to program your computers? Then f#$%ing hire Jesus, you freaks.

Religious organizations in the US are given much more lattitude (by law) in who they hire. They are exempt from certain decisions we would otherwise consider bias. As I said before, religious organizations are not the only organizations who enjoy this lattitude. The entertainment industry is also allowed to discriminate when it comes to talent. If they need a black guy in the lead role, they are lawfully allowed to "discriminate" against an otherwise equally qualified white woman or man. Your local news station is allowed to discriminate when it comes to hiring TV anchors. If 2 candidates have the same qualifications, but one has more "camera appeal," they can hire based on that. The list goes on and on.

As an avowed atheist, I don't have a problem with this policy. It would be the height of ridiculousness to expect a religious organization to hire people who don't support their beliefs. Starbucks and the other companies mentioned are businesses. They exist for the sole purpose of making money for their stockholders. A church has very different goals and requirements. For once we have a law that takes into account common sense, and that's really a good thing.

[Linda&Dave 0]

That's why I say it's not right to say 'our computer cannot be programmed by a non believer'.

The fact is that it's not just technical skills and ability to do the job that are criteria for employers these days. When I got made redundant in the UK back in 96, we were given presentations on the state of the job market. One thing that was made very clear was that employers are looking for a person who can not only meet their technical requirements but, even more importantly, would be someone who would fit well into their organization; would adapt to their culture and would be able to blend in well with their team. I see no problem with an organisation being up front about the kind of people they feel would be a good fit; by presenting the job opportunity in this way, it saves a lot of wasted time on behalf of candidates and of interviewers. I don't see anything wrong with a faith based organization preferring people who would be a good fit with them and placing equal or greater importance on compatibility than competence; it's normal practise in the business world these days; just the criteria may be different i.e. a teatotal person isn't going to fit too well in an organization where the team routinely goes to the pub after work and they would be right to reject a candidate who they feel would not be able to be a 'full' team member, however they define it.

That ministry has only been more upfront about their criteria, nothing wrong with that.

Edited January 23, 2008 by Linda&Dave

[Captain Oates 910]

That's why I say it's not right to say 'our computer cannot be programmed by a non believer'.

The fact is that it's not just technical skills and ability to do the job that are criteria for employers these days. When I got made redundant in the UK back in 96, we were given presentations on the state of the job market. One thing that was made very clear was that employers are looking for a person who can not only meet their technical requirements but, even more importantly, would be someone who would fit well into their organization; would adapt to their culture and would be able to blend in well with their team. I see no problem with an organisation being up front about the kind of people they feel would be a good fit; by presenting the job opportunity in this way, it saves a lot of wasted time on behalf of candidates and of interviewers. I don't see anything wrong with a faith based organization preferring people who would be a good fit with them and placing equal or greater importance on compatibility than competence; it's normal practise in the business world these days; just the criteria may be different i.e. a teatotal person isn't going to fit too well in an organization where the team routinely goes to the pub after work and they would be right to reject a candidate who they feel would not be able to be a 'full' team member, however they define it.

That ministry has only been more upfront about their criteria, nothing wrong with that.

What if another organisation felt that they had a lot of staff who were confederate flag waving pickup truck drivers with gun racks in their cabs - and they said 'no blacks' in the advert so as not to cause problems in the office. It is true to say a white person would fit in better there in those circumstances

You might say that a black person would not feel comfortable there and would not want to apply, but surely everybody has a right to sit on any seat in the bus and apply for any job that is advertised (and get it too if they are good enough) ?

As soon as an employer panders to the prejudices of the staff then they are on shaky ground...

As soon as an employer filters people on their race or colour or personal religious beliefs then it's wrong in every circumstance except where the religious belief IS the job - eg a clergyman

A computer programmer does not need ANY particular belief to carry out their job and their colour and race does not matter either..

A logical extension would be that the toilet cleaners at this company need to be fervent christians too ?

and the contractors who fix the heating and mow the lawns ?

If that is not necessary then why a computer programmer ? Where is the line ?

The fact is that these people have two motives

1 So their staff don't mix with unbelievers and become corrupted with doubt

2 So their money does not leave the church - they are guaranteed to have a portion of salary returned to them as tithe

There is no evangelical role for a computer programmer

[PlatyPius 5]

I worked a contract job in Indianapolis. I was told it was for a hospital, and that I would be inventorying computers and eventually replacing them. When we were given the location later, I saw that it was for St. Vincent's hospital. I didn't expect any issues. When I arrived for work, we were "briefed" that we were working for CSC/Ascension - a catholic hospital IT company. We were instructed on how to address the Sisters, what we could or could not say, what we could and could not wear, etc. I lasted a week. Keep your religion out of my job - especially when you don't tell me upfront about it.

[Linda&Dave 0]

I worked a contract job in Indianapolis. I was told it was for a hospital, and that I would be inventorying computers and eventually replacing them. When we were given the location later, I saw that it was for St. Vincent's hospital. I didn't expect any issues. When I arrived for work, we were "briefed" that we were working for CSC/Ascension - a catholic hospital IT company. We were instructed on how to address the Sisters, what we could or could not say, what we could and could not wear, etc. I lasted a week. Keep your religion out of my job - especially when you don't tell me upfront about it.

I contracted with a bank. Had to wear a suit in the middle of summer while female members of staff could pretty much dress how they wanted. I was in the army, was instructed on how to address NCO's and Officers and what I could and could not say. I didn't throw my toys out of the pram because they were the conditions of the job.

There have been too many cases of disgruntled employees sueing companies for unfair dismissal or constructive dismissal when the problem has been that they couldn't adapt to the environment. Companies, of whichever flavour, are far more choosy about who they employ these days as it makes as much sense to make sure someone is going to fit in and be happy as it does to make sure they're technically qualified for the job.

Fair enough that they didn't tell you up front but it seems to me that you didn't do your research in advance of the interview and so you were as much at fault for being not fully prepared.

[PlatyPius 5]

I worked a contract job in Indianapolis. I was told it was for a hospital, and that I would be inventorying computers and eventually replacing them. When we were given the location later, I saw that it was for St. Vincent's hospital. I didn't expect any issues. When I arrived for work, we were "briefed" that we were working for CSC/Ascension - a catholic hospital IT company. We were instructed on how to address the Sisters, what we could or could not say, what we could and could not wear, etc. I lasted a week. Keep your religion out of my job - especially when you don't tell me upfront about it.

I contracted with a bank. Had to wear a suit in the middle of summer while female members of staff could pretty much dress how they wanted. I was in the army, was instructed on how to address NCO's and Officers and what I could and could not say. I didn't throw my toys out of the pram because they were the conditions of the job.

There have been too many cases of disgruntled employees sueing companies for unfair dismissal or constructive dismissal when the problem has been that they couldn't adapt to the environment. Companies, of whichever flavour, are far more choosy about who they employ these days as it makes as much sense to make sure someone is going to fit in and be happy as it does to make sure they're technically qualified for the job.

Fair enough that they didn't tell you up front but it seems to me that you didn't do your research in advance of the interview and so you were as much at fault for being not fully prepared.

Hellooooo.... contract job. No interviews, no way to "research" before taking it.

[rebeccajo 14]

Platy -

I honestly wouldn't have a problem with addressing a nun in a certain manner, nor being informed on the best manner to speak to her. No more problem than I would with being informed how to speak to the Mayor or a Judge.

I really think that has more to do with 'decorum' than religion. Honestly.

[Jason-Sasha 1]

If churches can require that you follow their faith, can tobacco companies require that you smoke? Starbucks demand that you only drink their coffee? Porn sites require that you have a certain amount of porn in your home at all times? McDonald's require that you eat nothing but Big Macs and fries?

I worked for HP/Foxconn and didn't own (will never own) an HP computer.

I detest how much Xianity has insinuated itself into society in the US. Why can't we be more like the UK in that regard? I'm f@#$ing tired of driving and seeing "Got Jesus?" signs and other such ####### everywhere. You want Jesus to program your computers? Then f#$%ing hire Jesus, you freaks.

I couldn't agree more! The church is bent on stuffing their ideas in our faces. I'm strong enough to ignore the brainwashing, but I shouldn't have fight off all that want to bring me to their kingdom. They can all continue fighting and dying for their precious beliefs, but keep me out of it!

[Alhamdulillah 0]

2. I don't believe that's legal. But who knows maybe religious entities are exempt, they're exempt from a lot of laws.

Not as far as I know. The Islamic school here has a christian teacher and they aren't allowed to hire teachers based on whether they are muslim are not but I don't know if that's the school's policy or the law's. I would hope they wouldn't hire a non-muslim to teach the Islamic studies classes