Eight hours of terror in southern Israel

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

Damage from Grad attack in Beersheba:

Iron Dome intercepts Grad missiles over Beersheba:

Great stuff, now that Hamas or its supporters can't cause problems, the Peace talks can get rolling.

[scandal 951]

Hezbollah and Hamas make a lot of noise, that's all that they do. Nobody said that peace is easy.

I was living in Haifa during the summer of 2006. I saw firsthand the damage that Hezbollah rockets did in Haifa. We were going down to the bomb shelter nightly that July and felt the thuds and vibrations. One missile landed at the shopping complex where I used to get my hair cut, about half a mile from our house. I snapped some photos. You can see my reflection in the broken glass of the barber shop in the 5th photo here. The second photo is the impact crater, the other photos show the blasted out concrete of the neighboring building.

Hezbollah killed 44 Israeli civilians and injured more than 1,000 that summer in such attacks. That's not just noise. If someone was launching such missiles at my home in Chicago, I'd expect my government to do something about it.

[Pooky 3,354]

I am talking to my friend in Palestine - in the West Bank. He says it is crazy there today. He said there were 100,000 Palestinian cars backed up at check points, and the Israeli soldier there just laughing at them. He said people have gone crazy there, and everyone who is a civilian just wants peace. He also said that the situation that happened wasn't because of Palestinians, but because Israel couldn't control their border with Egypt.

I believe that Gaza has a direct border with Egypt. So it's a bit specious to say the Israelis couldn't control their border, when the Palestinian terrorists could enter Egypt without setting foot in Israel.

So, it appears that it's Palestinian business as usual. Even those opposed to the violence want to blame Israel for Palestinians murdering non-combatant Israelis. There needs to be a sea-change in Palestinian attitudes, for them to start attributing full responsibility for the murder of Israeli civilians to the Palestinian terrorists that carry out the acts, before most people will start to take their wishes for a lasting peace seriously.

The Israelis are already started down that road, with prosecutions of members of their military for unsanctioned acts, it is up to the Palestinians to play catch-up.

[scandal 951]

C'mon do you expect me to look the other way when the IDF uses the collective punishment that the Nazis and so many others (they weren't the first or the last) have used. The IDF isn't the Nazis, I never said that they were. Lidice and Oradour-sur-Galne were destroyed and the locals murdered in the name of "counterterrorsim," that sounds terribly familiar doesn't it? Much of that kind of brutality went out with Deir Yassin. That wasn't perpetrated by the IDF, that's true. If you expect people to turn a blind eye to what the IDF does, then why do they engage in asymmetrical warfare, why do innocent people who have done nothing to no one die. Israeli policy vis-a-vis oppression is carefully calculated, not in the same way as the Nazis but it is nonetheless carefully calculated to make life so unbearable that the Palestinians leave or are killed or are driven to rash acts of defiance. I'm not the one who has made these statements, various ISRAELI human rights groups and ex-IDF soldiers have. That is what gives me hope for peace, the brave men and women who are standing up for what's right. Groups like B'Tselem and others who are chastised for speaking out against the madness. Perhaps it was a bit hyperbolic on my part, I'll give you that, but I believe that never again applies to all of humanity and I hope you do, too.

I think it's fair game to be critical of Israeli policies. Israel is an open society, a democracy, and it's entirely legitimate to critique it. As you point out, many within Israel do so - as they should. I do too. I personally believe that the settlement policy is wrongheaded and going down the wrong track. I think the border fence/wall should be constructed, but it needs to follow the contours of the Green Line and not impede Palestinian access to their property. I think the policies regarding checkpoints, travel, and commerce in the West Bank are wrong and need to be changed.

I think that when instances of civilian deaths occur as a result of IDF operations, impartial investigations should be conducted and soldiers found to be acting not in accordance with IDF policy should be prosecuted -- AS THEY ARE.

What I think is not fair game is to bring the Third Reich into the conversation. There is simply no room for that among anyone who wants a reasoned discussion of the Israeli Palestinian situation. B'Tselem, Shalom Achshav, and any other Israeli organization who critiques Israeli policies would never stoop to such a tactic. They know, and anyone sensitive to the crimes and horrors of Nazi Germany knows, that such comparisons are demeaning to the victims of the Nazis and inappropriate.

[scandal 951]

eta: Just wanted to tone it down a bit, we all want peace and I hear, despite my bombast, and value what you're saying. :thumbs: :luv:

I'm cool with that, 5. Like you, I want peace in the region. I hope for a peace based on a two state solution, with viable secure contiguous territory for both sides. I regret the loss of life on all sides. I agree it's tragic that Palestinian civilians are caught up in the violence. I put some of the blame for that on Israeli military tactics that I wish were not so heavy handed at times. But I put far more blame on militants who intentionally fire their rockets from civilian areas and use local populations as unwilling human shields.

Peace may come. But it takes two to negotiate a treaty. And it will take Palestinians willing to come to terms with the legitimate existence of Israel. I thought we were close in the 90s during the Oslo process. I don't think we're close at all now.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

I was living in Haifa during the summer of 2006. I saw firsthand the damage that Hezbollah rockets did in Haifa. We were going down to the bomb shelter nightly that July and felt the thuds and vibrations. One missile landed at the shopping complex where I used to get my hair cut, about half a mile from our house. I snapped some photos. You can see my reflection in the broken glass of the barber shop in the 5th photo here. The second photo is the impact crater, the other photos show the blasted out concrete of the neighboring building.

Hezbollah killed 44 Israeli civilians and injured more than 1,000 that summer in such attacks. That's not just noise. If someone was launching such missiles at my home in Chicago, I'd expect my government to do something about it.

Firstly, let me say how truly thankful I am that neither you nor your loved ones were hurt and I mourn all innocents no matter who they are. Secondly, just to clarify, I am not saying that the people responsible shouldn't be prosecuted, I am only questioning the rhetoric and the reaction that the IDF took to this. That has always been my beef and I've always made it clear.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

I think it's fair game to be critical of Israeli policies. Israel is an open society, a democracy, and it's entirely legitimate to critique it. As you point out, many within Israel do so - as they should. I do too. I personally believe that the settlement policy is wrongheaded and going down the wrong track. I think the border fence/wall should be constructed, but it needs to follow the contours of the Green Line and not impede Palestinian access to their property. I think the policies regarding checkpoints, travel, and commerce in the West Bank are wrong and need to be changed.

I think that when instances of civilian deaths occur as a result of IDF operations, impartial investigations should be conducted and soldiers found to be acting not in accordance with IDF policy should be prosecuted -- AS THEY ARE.

What I think is not fair game is to bring the Third Reich into the conversation. There is simply no room for that among anyone who wants a reasoned discussion of the Israeli Palestinian situation. B'Tselem, Shalom Achshav, and any other Israeli organization who critiques Israeli policies would never stoop to such a tactic. They know, and anyone sensitive to the crimes and horrors of Nazi Germany knows, that such comparisons are demeaning to the victims of the Nazis and inappropriate.

The Nazi Germany comparison was from several ex-IDF soldiers, not me. I am hardly a fan of the Nazis. IDF self-prosecutions are no better or worse than the JAG Corps, IDF policy more than the soldiers themselves are frequently the issue.

[scandal 951]

Firstly, let me say how truly thankful I am that neither you nor your loved ones were hurt and I mourn all innocents no matter who they are. Secondly, just to clarify, I am not saying that the people responsible shouldn't be prosecuted, I am only questioning the rhetoric and the reaction that the IDF took to this. That has always been my beef and I've always made it clear.

Thank you for your concern, that's appreciated.

Israeli soldiers were patrolling the Lebanese border on OUR SIDE OF THE BORDER. Hezbollah crossed that border, and ambushed and killed the soldiers. I don't how much clearer a deliberate provocation there could be. What sort of reaction should the IDF take? Play pat-a-cake?

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

I'm cool with that, 5. Like you, I want peace in the region. I hope for a peace based on a two state solution, with viable secure contiguous territory for both sides. I regret the loss of life on all sides. I agree it's tragic that Palestinian civilians are caught up in the violence. I put some of the blame for that on Israeli military tactics that I wish were not so heavy handed at times. But I put far more blame on militants who intentionally fire their rockets from civilian areas and use local populations as unwilling human shields.

Peace may come. But it takes two to negotiate a treaty. And it will take Palestinians willing to come to terms with the legitimate existence of Israel. I thought we were close in the 90s during the Oslo process. I don't think we're close at all now.

I'm a one-state guy, the difficulties in setting up two states makes it hard for me to see this as possible. It may yet be, I can't say. One thing that will cut the legs out from under the militants is to push forward, interdict and prosecute at the same time, but bring normalcy to the Palestinians. That will accomplish two things: people who are able to move about and not worry tend to be happy and happy people don't reach out to groups like Hamas; and those youngsters who have hope won't waste their time listening to militants, they really are like the guys who hand out pamphlets at the subways, because they know that they can do anything they want if they choose to.

[scandal 951]

The Nazi Germany comparison was from several ex-IDF soldiers, not me. I am hardly a fan of the Nazis. IDF self-prosecutions are no better or worse than the JAG Corps, IDF policy more than the soldiers themselves are frequently the issue.

The Nazi Germany comparison came from you.

The IDF is not as bad as the Nazis but that they use more than one technique employed by them on a regular basis, makes the comparison, no matter how distasteful, valid.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

Thank you for your concern, that's appreciated.

Israeli soldiers were patrolling the Lebanese border on OUR SIDE OF THE BORDER. Hezbollah crossed that border, and ambushed and killed the soldiers. I don't how much clearer a deliberate provocation there could be. What sort of reaction should the IDF take? Play pat-a-cake?

:luv:

Track, locate and if, possible, incarcerate. Criminals go to jail, it takes away much of the martyr aura which is what Hezbollah wants so that they can hook the next generation. It may not always be possible but it is far better to bide one's time and then catch them. It's easier said than done, I realize that.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

The Nazi Germany comparison came from you.

I've heard it before, not from this source but this is one of many who have made the comparison:

The drama that compares Israel with Nazi Germany By John Nathan

When Jonathan Lichtenstein's play, Memory, arrived in New York, some Jews were so outraged they walked out of the theatre. Others gave a standing ovation.

Perhaps this is a predictable response to a work that effortlessly connects pre- and post-war Berlin with modern-day Bethlehem. Memory also depicts how Jews were treated in Germany before the war and the way many Palestinians are treated by Israel now.

It is impossible to avoid the conclusion that comparisons are being made. Especially with a play that contains the line, spoken by a Palestinian: "We are the Jews of the Middle East" - which might explain the walkouts.

"My original story was just set in 1930s and 1990s Berlin," says Lichtenstein on a windy terrace outside the National Theatre - although it is North London's Pleasance Theatre where the play arrives at the end of this month.

Lichtenstein says he feels "compelled to write. I mean, if I said to you that, as I went to sleep, this voice kept saying to me write this down, write this down - that's really how it happens."

Some context is needed. Memory, which is directed by one-time RSC artistic director Terry Hands, started life at Theatre Clwyd Cymru in 2006 before a run in New York.

In this play-within-a-play, Lichtenstein's characters are actors rehearsing the roles for a drama that opens in an East Berlin apartment, just after the Berlin wall came down. It is the home of an elderly lady who is persuaded by her grandson to recall how she saved two Jewish boys from the Shoah, and how the Nazis stole her husband's business before he killed himself.

The story also veers to and from Bethlehem, where an Israeli soldier is enforcing an order for an elderly Palestinian man's home to be destroyed to make way for the security wall.

So is Lichtenstein seriously linking Palestinian suffering at the hands of Israel with Jewish suffering at the hands of the Nazis? Or, put another way, is he comparing Israel with Nazi Germany? It is a question that makes the Welsh playwright bristle.

"The word ‘link' is so loaded," he says with indignation. "We are used to dealing in precise lines; arguments on this side of the barrier and on that side."

The answer sounds evasive for a play that is so straightforwardly political. But Lichtenstein does not see his play as primarily a political work - rather, a psychological one. "Have you come across this notion of trans-generational trauma? Well I think that's what the play is about, really. My father was a kindertransport." He is referring to the way suppressed trauma in one generation, such as his father's, can be expressed by the next, such as his own.

Lichtenstein's answer continues in broken sentences and hesitant phrases, punctuated by thoughtful pauses. "I've had to contend with New York Jews, so that's why I'm somewhat wary," he says.

"My family had shops in Berlin so I know about the property laws," says the 51-year-old playwright.

And it is becoming clear that this, the seizure of property, is an aspect of Jewish and Palestinian suffering where the author sees a valid parallel. His play dramatises how a Berlin a Jewish business is stolen by the Nazis, and how in modern-day Bethlehem, the home of an innocent Palestinian is destroyed to make way for Israel's security wall. "I'm not saying it's is the same as the 1940s. I am suggesting that property laws are important and people should be careful," he says.

It is also worth pointing out that those who walked out of the play in New York would have missed a crucial scene that leaves the audience in no doubt of the difference between Israel and Nazi Germany. "The Holocaust is not the same as what's going on in Palestine," says Lichtenstein.

My link

[Golden Gate 530]

I believe that Gaza has a direct border with Egypt. So it's a bit specious to say the Israelis couldn't control their border, when the Palestinian terrorists could enter Egypt without setting foot in Israel.

So, it appears that it's Palestinian business as usual. Even those opposed to the violence want to blame Israel for Palestinians murdering non-combatant Israelis. There needs to be a sea-change in Palestinian attitudes, for them to start attributing full responsibility for the murder of Israeli civilians to the Palestinian terrorists that carry out the acts, before most people will start to take their wishes for a lasting peace seriously.

The Israelis are already started down that road, with prosecutions of members of their military for unsanctioned acts, it is up to the Palestinians to play catch-up.

Israelis have murdered many many non-combatant Palestinians. One is being prosecuted.

[Golden Gate 530]

Israelis have murdered many many non-combatant Palestinians. One is being prosecuted.

There needs to be a change on both sides!! You can't keep people in a zoo and expect them to live happily.

Edited August 21, 2011 by Golden Gate

[scandal 951]

:luv:

Track, locate and if, possible, incarcerate. Criminals go to jail, it takes away much of the martyr aura which is what Hezbollah wants so that they can hook the next generation. It may not always be possible but it is far better to bide one's time and then catch them. It's easier said than done, I realize that.

Would you have advised the US to follow this policy after 9/11? Instead of treating al Quaida as an enemy who killed Americans on their home soil in an unprovoked attack? I'm glad we took the fight to them. It was the morally correct thing to do.

Besides, "track, locate, incarcerate" would have implied Israel sending forces into sovereign Lebanese territory to execute an "extraordinary rendition" policy and bring back perpetrators to Israel. The US comes in for criticism for such policies, as does Israel - for example Abdel Karim Obeid.