butmajor-leagueas

Bump!

What about a copy of the child's original passport application itself (I'm just brainstorming / thinking out loud) for proof of physical custody? It wouldn't necessarily be evidence of US citizenship status per se, but I was thinking that it could be evidence of physical custody, since it would require the parents to the child's name, address, and also their names too. And then sign it too. Here is a archive of how that form was from that era (2006) - https://web.archive.org/web/20061207054435/http://foia.state.gov/Forms/Passport/ds0011.pdf It asks for both the mailing address and permanent address of the child.

I also wanted to ask if a majority of this evidence was contemporaneous? I'm assuming that it was...

Understood. Thanks for this information (you learn something new every day). So, that basically clears the misconception I have and I understand that - More evidence is better esp for something like physical custody. I'm still unsure about if for physical custody, does it always have to be in the exact and precise year that the parent(s) naturalized in. I do have some evidence from that specific year, but not nearly as much as evidence from later years when I was still a minor. I guess I'm not only worried about a denial, but also if they end up incorrectly concluding that I became a citizen later than I actually did. Also, although I will be submitting my currently valid U.S. Passport as evidence of U.S. Citizenship, with the general idea that "more evidence is better" - although USCIS doesn't recognize expired U.S. Passports as evidence that a person is a U.S. Citizen today, I still wonder if it would act as evidence of U.S. Citizenship for the period of its validity in the past? Would it hurt to submit U.S. Passports from the past?

Well, USCIS' field manual does say "the officer may not exercise discretion arbitrarily, inconsistently, or in reliance on biases or assumptions", but maybe in practice you are right.

So, you have a point, but keep in mind that providing too much evidence could often lead to additional delays and longer processing times. Although, a person has only one chance at a N-600, USCIS won't just straight up deny an application unless the person was determined to not be a citizen at all. If they want more evidence, they'd simply issue an RFE.

Very interesting indeed. I guess I shouldn't be too concerned about signatures, then. Now, I do want to ask a few questions regarding these specific records: For the Social Security card and the mailer it came in, do you know if that letter has some of sort generic title / name to it? If so, can you please share? I'm trying to see if I can FOIA / PA that. Reason being that I have two SSN cards throughout my life - The first one has the "NOT VALID FOR EMPLOYMENT" notice on top, while the other one does not. I logged into my ssa.gov account, and noticed that I don't get the notice that says that the SSA has me in their records as someone who is not a U.S. Citizen. Afterwards, I checked with my parents who said that they THINK that they might have also updated my status with the SSA as soon as I got my first U.S. passport. If there is evidence of action done by my parents on behalf of me via the SSA, then perhaps that could be good evidence of actual physical custody. However, from what I heard, the SSA does not really like FOIA / PA requests that are "all records" requests. So, I'd want to figure out what I'd want to ask them for. For the "tax transcript" part, forgive my ignorance, but what's exactly the difference between a tax transcript and IRS 1040 form? I know that the IRS 1040 sort of serves as a "cover page" for tax return filings, which includes many additional forms that are supplemented to it. But what exactly is a tax transcript? Which one is better for this purpose? I do have a U.S. passport, and my very first one was issued only shortly after both my parents became U.S. citizens. Several, in fact throughout the years. And in fact, the point that people were making about how it has "the same evidence" resonated with me, until I realized that when I got my first U.S. passport around 20 years ago, the DOS had a completely different interpretation of the "physical custody" portion of INA Section 320. Back in those days, they had interpreted it as where the child is physically with the parent at the acceptance facility when submitting the passport application. When I realized that this was the case, I was crushed, since I was hoping that I could FOIA / PA past passport applications. I actually wonder if an approved DS-11 application can serve as proof of physical custody for USCIS Form N-600, if I could FOIA / PA it. If you think about it, it has a lot of info about the parents' and child and we they all live and also a date for when the application was signed and submitted. Other than that, I was able to get a bunch of medical and school records, but they weren't always quite during the exact year that my parent became a US citizen, though, they were still from when I was a minor.

Got it - thanks for this info. Do you mind also sharing the number of documents you submitted as evidence? 1? 2? 3?

When I mean to "vet" a lawyer, I mostly want to try to figure how experienced the lawyer is with INA Section 320 citizenship cases and also just the experience of filing N-600s and responding to RFEs pertaining to them. ------------------------------------------------ To add to the question in the title, I'm also wondering if it is even worthwhile to solict a lawyer for my N-600 filing? I feel like since I'm a person who hasn't filled out a single immigration form in my entire life that it might make sense. I have done a ton of research on my own over several months, but then again, I feel like nothing beats the experience of a lawyer. Questions I've had previously including questions such as - "should letters have wet signatures and seals / stamps of certification" would be something that a lawyer would just know. Not to mention, my N-600 application is for my derivation of U.S. Citizenship that happened decades ago, rather than recently. Evidence for things like physical custody is just much more difficult to obtain at this point, and even if someone filing an N-600 this far into the future does have evidence that fulfills the "preponderance of evidence" standard, it might often be from an assortment of evidence that might not be so easy to present in the best way. But then again, I've heard horror stories of lawyers making mistakes and people having to correct their lawyer's mistakes on their own, and I worry that for N-600 filings, they might just not have as much experience since the number of derived citizens (and even so those who have acquired it at birth to U.S. Citizen parents) are tiny, let alone those who file USCIS Form N-600 and I feel like a lot of lawyers might not have as much experience with N-600 filings.

Thanks, and yeah, the reason why people in my situation are rare is since most other INA 320 citizens (and even INA 301 / 309 citizens) are probably oblivious about it. Even I didn't know about this nuance until around a year ago when I realized that my mom had a CoN, my dad has a CoN, but I have... an ancient permanent resident card? Then, I went into a rabbit hole and was kinda disillusioned after seeing that a country's system and lawmakers have even allowed things to be like this. Especially when an INA 320 citizen would need this to be sorted out the most. We were children when our parents went through the immigration process. We likely never filled out a single immigration form, so throwing us into the deep end for such a form in itself is ridiculous. My two cents to the naysayers on this forum is that even if they don't want to file their child's N-600 application, at least have a complete application ready for them when they turn 18. Have all of the documents needed, especially the ones around legal and physical custody which are extremely difficult to find many years into the future if they haven't been collected previously. And maybe their 18 year old child might be able to even qualify for a fee waiver since... I mean... I don't think a lot of 18 year olds make a lot of money. At least I didn't.

I responded but didn't go into much detail, unfortunately. My apologies, but I just don't want to think about it too much since I'm... exhausted. I hope that I can finalize everything for my N-600 Application soon, submit it, and have a painless and speedy adjudication so I can be completely done with USCIS for good...

It's not just a "piece of paper", and a derived citizen isn't eligible for a Certificate of Naturalization, but rather a Certificate of Citizenship. I get extremely upset when I hear people say this "piece of paper" thing, and they forget the implications and struggles that a derived citizen might have when their parents neglect the submission of N-600 which would finalize USCIS' records on their child's citizenship status once in for all.

Well, said, and to add to that - In the eyes of the government, it is "optional" and a "benefit" because yes, a person does fit what is needed by law to be a citizen. But papers matter for practical purposes even if you fit the parameters of the law via material truth. There is no statute on “user experience.” And as we know, government agencies in the U.S. seem to go out of their way to make everything as ridiculous and painful as possible. I'm working on my N-600 application some 20 years after I derived U.S. Citizenship from my parent. However, it has been extremely difficult to obtain proof of physical custody from that exact year that I derived U.S. Citizenship but I still want to push through before it becomes even more difficult. To add insult to injury, when my parents applied for my first U.S. Passport just shortly after I derived U.S. Citizenship, the DOS interpreted INA 320's "physical custody" as where the child must literally be physically with the parents at the center where the parents would submit their passport application. They didn't ask for any third party evidence of physical custody. But they concluded some 10 years or so ago that their interpretation of INA 320's physical custody requirement was incorrect and they aligned it to what USCIS has had from the beginning. So, even if I FOIA / PA request my first U.S. Passport application, it won't come up with any such third party evidence as the DOS didn't ask for it then. I was devastated to hear that since I was really hoping that a FOIA request of my first U.S. Passport Application would contain evidence that exists in the law. TLDR: Government guidance on whether a CoC is “needed” doesn’t consider potential future complications. There’s no statute guaranteeing an easy “user experience,” and anyone who has dealt with U.S. agencies knows they rarely make things simple.

Indeed. Getting a wet signature document and scanning it is diff vs if it never had a wet signature in the first place.

That's what I was thinking too, but I am kinda scared / worried if they'd say in the end that it is not "good enough." Plus, the physical custody evidence I have from the year I derived U.S. Citizenship from my parent is quite limited and extremely unavailable, since it is documentation from around 20y ago when I was a kid...