Mosocw Medical Exam Controversy

[mendeleev 69]

Slim may be right.

My wife's "rape by instrumentation" (I used to live in Oklahoma and what she is experienced is criminalized in that state under the rubric "rape by instrumentation") occurred in Sept '05 at MOM when she was going for her K1. Given that this sort of abuse, and others, was being reported widely on other boards then, it is conceivable that the embassy picked it up and made MOM behave. Before today, I hadn't heard anything like what Slim claims, though -- and from what I hear sporadic cases of abuse -- that do not rise to the level of assault that my wife experienced -- may still occur there.

At her K3 interview in Sept 07, AOM did force my wife to take unnecessary vaccinations that did have consequences sufficiently severe that we probably should report them to CDC. I complained to the embassy and, from what I glean in a recent post on this board, AOMedisina is not requiring vaccinations for K1/K3 individuals over the age of 35. If accurate, the AOM is still out on the range, since CDC guidelines nowhere specify 35 years old as a caution limit for any vaccination.

If we had to do it again, we'd use AOM, in spite of their transgression. They were clean, pretty efficient -- just what you might expect for a Swiss-owned hospital.

Edited December 14, 2007 by novotul

[Satellite 1]

My wife's "rape by instrumentation" (I used to live in Oklahoma and what she is experienced is criminalized in that state under the rubric "rape by instrumentation") occurred in Sept '05 at MOM when she was going for her K1.

I went ahead and looked this one up.

http://oklegal.onenet.net/oklegal-cgi/ifet...+852614634632+F

However, I am curious, didn't your wife consent to being at the clinic and going to the medical exam?

Also none of the elements of

§1111:

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/Deli...sp?CiteID=69602

seem to be met.

I don't think this statute was intended to be used to accuse every physician performing a pelvic exam of rape. Instead, I gather it was written to catch those acts of rape which occurred without using body parts in the traditional settings, per section 1111.

You might have a better case that a pelvic exam is not necessary for this kind of medical exam, but that typically does not amount to a crime.

Although there have been cases of physicians committing rape during these gynecological exams, it usually involves very blatant acts and requires the multiple victims to prove.

So in conclusion if this occurred in the states, you would still have a very hard case to prove.

[Chris Parker 11]

My wife's "rape by instrumentation" (I used to live in Oklahoma and what she is experienced is criminalized in that state under the rubric "rape by instrumentation") occurred in Sept '05 at MOM when she was going for her K1.

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't Moscow considered to be outside the jurisdiction of this law? Also, as someone previously mentioned, isn't the examination considered entirely voluntary and she could leave at any time?

Also, I'm a bit surprised that no one has anything to say about Flatilov?

[visaveteran1 33]

Well, this thread had some interesting twists and turns...but i think I got the info I wanted.

Based on what I've read from your replies, I will send my wife only to AOS. Maybe the MOM is now ok but I'm not going to risk it. The only advantage to MOM as I have heard is it's one day service and with AOS is next morning. Not enough to risk my wife getting harassed or worse.

Concerning my personal views of Russian men...I find them charming, funny and some have helped me out. They also carry a kind of masculinity that is different then I see stateside for the most part and they wear it well. I do think Russia is a male dominated culture so i think men in Russia or more content than the women. I think communism hurt men in Russia....the STATE had the balls, not the men. The state was the provider and protector. If the men have issues, it's not their fault in my judgment. But I still don't have to like their behavior towards women.

[slim 1,533]

Concerning my personal views of Russian men...I find them charming, funny and some have helped me out. They also carry a kind of masculinity that is different then I see stateside for the most part and they wear it well.

Yeah, there's something about wearing a tank top and carrying a purse.... and pulling it off. It takes a special kind of masculinity to do that without looking totally fabulous.

As for the difference in masculinity between men there and men here, I believe that stems from the difference in women there and women here. Women in Russia still play the traditional role (and are happy to do so) and expect their men to be "the man." Most women here in the States don't need a "man." They'd rather have a pretty, hair gel-sporting, accomplice that compliments their look and elevates their status over their girlfriends; more of an accessory, like a fashionable handbag or big sunglasses rather than someone who will hop out of the car and change the tire when they're broken down. The "accessories" will just call AAA.

Most "men" in Russia or the U.S. would change their own tire before they'd make their wife wait in the car for over an hour for another "man" to come change it for them.

(Not knocking AAA or having someone change your tire for you. That's awesome. All I'm saying is there is a direct relation between the amount of gel you wear in your hair and the amount of time you're willing to wait on another man to come do a job for you that you're perfectly capable of doing yourself. In Russia, the number of men willing to change their own tire seems to be higher than the number of men here. And the ratio is widening, not closing.)

[visaveteran1 33]

Concerning my personal views of Russian men...I find them charming, funny and some have helped me out. They also carry a kind of masculinity that is different then I see stateside for the most part and they wear it well.

Yeah, there's something about wearing a tank top and carrying a purse.... and pulling it off. It takes a special kind of masculinity to do that without looking totally fabulous.

As for the difference in masculinity between men there and men here, I believe that stems from the difference in women there and women here. Women in Russia still play the traditional role (and are happy to do so) and expect their men to be "the man." Most women here in the States don't need a "man." They'd rather have a pretty, hair gel-sporting, accomplice that compliments their look and elevates their status over their girlfriends; more of an accessory, like a fashionable handbag or big sunglasses rather than someone who will hop out of the car and change the tire when they're broken down. The "accessories" will just call AAA.

Most "men" in Russia or the U.S. would change their own tire before they'd make their wife wait in the car for over an hour for another "man" to come change it for them.

(Not knocking AAA or having someone change your tire for you. That's awesome. All I'm saying is there is a direct relation between the amount of gel you wear in your hair and the amount of time you're willing to wait on another man to come do a job for you that you're perfectly capable of doing yourself. In Russia, the number of men willing to change their own tire seems to be higher than the number of men here. And the ratio is widening, not closing.)

Women in the USA are the "engine" driving the Russian or Foreign Bride phenomena. If you look at dating sites in the US, the women over 40 want younger men, not older. They want to feel younger so they hang out with younger guys to create an illusion of their own youth. And they want a man with an "athletic" body and be a CEO. In Russia, many women want an older man. And the personal appearance of the men is a secondary issue, not a primary one. There are not many places in the world where women respect the older man and what he can bring to a relationship...wisdom, experience, stability, and perhaps a bit of economic comfort.

As to the accessory male, I think some call this guys "soft males" or "nice boys." Women date them but secretly desire the bad boy or the guy who can actually protect them if things go bad in the dark alley. American women have created a paradox for themselves...and the American culture is changing.

[visaveteran1 33]

I agree that the abandonment of the traditional female role is to a significant extent driving some men towards foreign brides, but it's still a pretty niche activity, mostly due to the social stigma. I think that statistically it can't really be called a trend. Nor do I think it will ever gain the momentum to be a trend. In Russia, women are becoming more and more like Western women, and care less and less about the traditional roles their mothers filled. I suspect the next generation of Russian women will be much closer to American women in terms of the role they expect to take in a marriage. So...get em now while you can, I guess.

Your point about yonger Russian women changing is true in my judgment. The "New Russia" women. And i think looking beyond the comfort of Moscow and St. Pete to more remote or smaller cities will increase the chances to find an old-school " Russian village girl" ...the ones who still hold traditional values and are willing to work hard and make the extra effort to make her man happy. The ones who have known hardships and struggle, and will appreciate what the western world might offer them.

[Buck and Natalia 0]

Here is a link visited by hundreds of Russian women that have already been through the medical exam process. I think they talk about this issue quite extensively. It might be worth checking out by your fiancees........

http://www.russian-fiancee.com/rus/forum/

Actually, I rather pity any medical clinic or medical examiners that try to do something unsavory to Natalia or treat her disrespectfully. The Battle of Stalingrad would look like an afternoon tea party after she was finished with them.

Buck

[Buck and Natalia 0]

I agree that the abandonment of the traditional female role is to a significant extent driving some men towards foreign brides, but it's still a pretty niche activity, mostly due to the social stigma. I think that statistically it can't really be called a trend. Nor do I think it will ever gain the momentum to be a trend. In Russia, women are becoming more and more like Western women, and care less and less about the traditional roles their mothers filled. I suspect the next generation of Russian women will be much closer to American women in terms of the role they expect to take in a marriage. So...get em now while you can, I guess.

Your point about yonger Russian women changing is true in my judgment. The "New Russia" women. And i think looking beyond the comfort of Moscow and St. Pete to more remote or smaller cities will increase the chances to find an old-school " Russian village girl" ...the ones who still hold traditional values and are willing to work hard and make the extra effort to make her man happy. The ones who have known hardships and struggle, and will appreciate what the western world might offer them.

OK..... I tried but couldn't resist contributing to the social commentary. I agree that there are many factors driving the Russian-bride phenomena. I agree that this may be a short-term phenomena that may pass with this generation of Russian women as they become more westernized. What is driving the current phenomena? These are my limited observations: Russian women tend to be under-appreciated by russian men. The reasons are very complex but this seems to be a general trend. For the past few decades, Russian women have been the glue holding Soviet and post-Soviet society together. Yet, Russian women tend to be treated rather cavalierly by their men. Many factors are at work but I suspect that the Soviet model and post-Perestroika chaos that ensued somehow severely damaged the traditional role filled by a man in a family. Similarly, USA men tend to be under-appreciated by USA women. Again, the reasons are very complex but this seems to be a general trend. I suspect that somehow current American culture severely damaged the traditional role filled by a woman in a family. The advent of the internet and thawing of relations between the USA and Russia allowed Russian women and USA men to communicate. On a macro level, both sides dicovered something in the other that they were yearing for but not finding in their home countries. On a micro level, it is easy to see why strong love relationships would develop between individuals in these two groups. I know it sounds rather simplistic as I write this...... but, again, these are just my observations.

[Igor&Elina 0]

Here is a link visited by hundreds of Russian women that have already been through the medical exam process. I think they talk about this issue quite extensively. It might be worth checking out by your fiancees........

http://www.russian-fiancee.com/rus/forum/

Actually, I rather pity any medical clinic or medical examiners that try to do something unsavory to Natalia or treat her disrespectfully. The Battle of Stalingrad would look like an afternoon tea party after she was finished with them.

Buck

Most (if not all) of the recent reports on that site do say that MOM has become quite good. Looks like no more iffy stuff going on there. But, just in case our own solution to any kind of possible problems is rather simple. We have scheduled Elina's medical at MOM for Dec 26th, while I'm going to be visiting for the holidays. I will simply accompany her through the whole process.

[Buck and Natalia 0]

I agree that the abandonment of the traditional female role is to a significant extent driving some men towards foreign brides, but it's still a pretty niche activity, mostly due to the social stigma. I think that statistically it can't really be called a trend. Nor do I think it will ever gain the momentum to be a trend. In Russia, women are becoming more and more like Western women, and care less and less about the traditional roles their mothers filled. I suspect the next generation of Russian women will be much closer to American women in terms of the role they expect to take in a marriage. So...get em now while you can, I guess.

Your point about yonger Russian women changing is true in my judgment. The "New Russia" women. And i think looking beyond the comfort of Moscow and St. Pete to more remote or smaller cities will increase the chances to find an old-school " Russian village girl" ...the ones who still hold traditional values and are willing to work hard and make the extra effort to make her man happy. The ones who have known hardships and struggle, and will appreciate what the western world might offer them.

OK..... I tried but couldn't resist contributing to the social commentary. I agree that there are many factors driving the Russian-bride phenomena. I agree that this may be a short-term phenomena that may pass with this generation of Russian women as they become more westernized. What is driving the current phenomena? These are my limited observations: Russian women tend to be under-appreciated by russian men. The reasons are very complex but this seems to be a general trend. For the past few decades, Russian women have been the glue holding Soviet and post-Soviet society together. Yet, Russian women tend to be treated rather cavalierly by their men. Many factors are at work but I suspect that the Soviet model and post-Perestroika chaos that ensued somehow severely damaged the traditional role filled by a man in a family. Similarly, USA men tend to be under-appreciated by USA women. Again, the reasons are very complex but this seems to be a general trend. I suspect that somehow current American culture severely damaged the traditional role filled by a woman in a family. The advent of the internet and thawing of relations between the USA and Russia allowed Russian women and USA men to communicate. On a macro level, both sides dicovered something in the other that they were yearning for but not finding in their home countries. On a micro level, it is easy to see why strong love relationships would develop between individuals in these two groups. I know it sounds rather simplistic as I write this...... but, again, these are just my observations.

[visaveteran1 33]

The ones who have known hardships and struggle, and will appreciate what the western world might offer them.

I dunno about that. I'm all for the traditional woman; it's one of my SO's most endearing qualities to me. But I'm certainly not looking for a woman who is looking to escape her life, hardships or otherwise. I don't need or want that baggage. I've seen how "rescue syndrome" relationships end, and it's not pretty.

My SO has made it pretty clear that she's not abandoning Russia. She fully expects that we'll be heading back from time to time, and I fully expect to deliver on that promise. She is giving up a lot to come to me, and not because of what a western world might offer her, but because she wants to be with me. I have no doubt in my mind that she'd go back to Russia if I gave her cause, even if she had permanent residency by then. I'm perfectly fine with that, because it means she's starting a new life to be with me, not because of what she can gain from being in the West.

It's not rescue, it's moving upwards...it's betterment. It's like moving into a bigger better house. You might miss some things and have a little nostalgia for the little place you once lived, but you're happy to leave also. My wife has family in Siberia and will return one month a year to visit and be with family. But I hear her say she "hates" Russia also. There is sadness and disappointment about her country and when i see the prices and lack of basic services and riding the elevator to her flat standing in human urine, I doubt she wants to return to that for very long. And her building is actually not bad relatively speaking.

I have heard of women who hate the USA and decide to return...maybe they couldn't cut English or maybe they felt isolated or they're husband took them to the boondocks, or whatever, so I acknowledge the exceptions to the rule. But all the Russian women i've known all say it the same way when things go bad at home..."It is Russia!" Yes...indeed.

[visaveteran1 33]

I agree that the abandonment of the traditional female role is to a significant extent driving some men towards foreign brides, but it's still a pretty niche activity, mostly due to the social stigma. I think that statistically it can't really be called a trend. Nor do I think it will ever gain the momentum to be a trend. In Russia, women are becoming more and more like Western women, and care less and less about the traditional roles their mothers filled. I suspect the next generation of Russian women will be much closer to American women in terms of the role they expect to take in a marriage. So...get em now while you can, I guess.

Your point about yonger Russian women changing is true in my judgment. The "New Russia" women. And i think looking beyond the comfort of Moscow and St. Pete to more remote or smaller cities will increase the chances to find an old-school " Russian village girl" ...the ones who still hold traditional values and are willing to work hard and make the extra effort to make her man happy. The ones who have known hardships and struggle, and will appreciate what the western world might offer them.

OK..... I tried but couldn't resist contributing to the social commentary. I agree that there are many factors driving the Russian-bride phenomena. I agree that this may be a short-term phenomena that may pass with this generation of Russian women as they become more westernized. What is driving the current phenomena? These are my limited observations: Russian women tend to be under-appreciated by russian men. The reasons are very complex but this seems to be a general trend. For the past few decades, Russian women have been the glue holding Soviet and post-Soviet society together. Yet, Russian women tend to be treated rather cavalierly by their men. Many factors are at work but I suspect that the Soviet model and post-Perestroika chaos that ensued somehow severely damaged the traditional role filled by a man in a family. Similarly, USA men tend to be under-appreciated by USA women. Again, the reasons are very complex but this seems to be a general trend. I suspect that somehow current American culture severely damaged the traditional role filled by a woman in a family. The advent of the internet and thawing of relations between the USA and Russia allowed Russian women and USA men to communicate. On a macro level, both sides dicovered something in the other that they were yearning for but not finding in their home countries. On a micro level, it is easy to see why strong love relationships would develop between individuals in these two groups. I know it sounds rather simplistic as I write this...... but, again, these are just my observations.

Yes...you say it well. I agree with your observations of the light side or the phenomena. Like most things there is also a shadow side to the phenomena...the scams in Russia where some older men have lost thousands to the phony schemes. And the crazy or crackpot men over here looking for a personal slave, etc. resulting in the Adam Walsh law. But there is a nice "dance" going on between many Russian women and American men. There is a poetic balance between what each side offers the other.

I do think the window may be closing on this phenomena.

[Buck and Natalia 0]

Yes...you say it well. I agree with your observations of the light side or the phenomena. Like most things there is also a shadow side to the phenomena...the scams in Russia where some older men have lost thousands to the phony schemes. And the crazy or crackpot men over here looking for a personal slave, etc. resulting in the Adam Walsh law. But there is a nice "dance" going on between many Russian women and American men. There is a poetic balance between what each side offers the other.

I do think the window may be closing on this phenomena.

I think the window might be closing as well but it sure is nice to be included in the dance........ is it not?

[Igor&Elina 0]

We did consider all of the options and the bad reports from MOM were of concern to us, but after seeing that things have improved we have decided to go there anyway, mostly because you get the results the same day. Anyway, we'll be doing it in just about a week. I'll be happy to post a report.