Does Islam allow Muslim men to marry Christian women?

[The_dip_sticks 0]

Christians, even Catholics, do not worship Mary. Nope, nope, nope. But Jesus is God for Christians, and there's really no way around that. A Christian who just accepts Jesus as a prophet wouldn't be a very good Christian under most sects.

But none of that really matters in this case except to the extent that it makes an interfaith marriage difficult, and that it's not just as easy as saying 'Muslims can marry Christians as long as they don't believe in the divinity of Christ', as that excludes a lot of people. The problem's his mother and HER interpretation of what her good boy is allowed to do, and I fear that even if the facts of Islam differ from what she thinks, this isn't going to be a problem solved with philosophy.

You always hit the points perfectly, Caladan. How do you do that?

The question about allowing marriages has already been answered. It is most likely a family pressure situation and something very powerful is going on that the OP may not be aware of.

2nd topic that came up here (long post - sorry):

Christians worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost; but the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten; the Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten; the Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

(Taken from a creed from the early church's teachings)

In simpler terms, it is that there are three Persons who can accurately be called 'the One God' or 'three persons in one ultimate unit'.

RATIONALIZING THE TRINITY

We are to worship one God and one God only, but that God is not limited to our logics and should not be cut down to size to fit into our rational thinking.

Take a look at Isaiah 40:18:

To whom, then, will you compare God? What image will you compare him to?

or Isaiah 46.5:

"To whom will you compare me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?

Also, read these descriptions and biblical assertions. (I KNOW SOME WILL SAY THE BIBLE IS CORRUPT, AND THAT MAY BE TRUE. PLEASE REFER TO MY LAST PARAGRAPHS. PLUS, THERE ARE ARABIC RESOURCES THAT HAVE SIMILAR STATEMENTS AND COME FROM BOOKS OTHER THAN THE BIBLE)

John 1 - "The Word was WITH God and the Word was GOD" - surprisingly simple statement of pure-and-simple plurality-in-unity. And, this Word (i.e. Jesus Christ) prayed to the Father in heaven. (numerous places)

This Jesus would send the Holy Spirit from the Father in heaven, after his departure from earth. (John 14-17)

This Spirit could be grieved (Ephs 4) and lied to (Acts 5), and made sovereign decisions (I Cor 12:11 etc.)

These three are listed co-equally and co-ordinately in the baptism (Matt 28) and the Benediction (2 Cor 13:14).

Old Testament passages demonstrate over and again that the Angel of YHWH 'was' YHWH and 'was with YHWH'; and that the Spirit of YHWH 'was' YHWH and 'was with YHWH'. Old Testament passages describe a messianic figure that is super-human, super-angelic (agreed to even by non-Christian rabbinic writings), and is even called YHWH in a few verses.

OPPOSITION TO THE TRINITY

There are objections to this Judeo-Christian belief, but those who oppose try to philosophize and rationalize God down into our image.

Frankly, one would expect a "God" to be more complex than everything He created! One would expect SOME sort of duality or overlapping, but for one to say that God COULD NOT have three interior Persons would be VERY intellectually presumptuous (especially us being mortal creatures). To say that a God who could speak a universe into existence HAS TO BE no more complex in His nature than humans are would be GROUNDLESS assumption/speculation of the most ludicrous sort.

JESUS=GOD?

I know of at least one verse from the Quran that says that Jesus arose after his death (Surah 19:30-35). Mortal men can't do that. Most of Jesus' miracles were performed without invocation; without calling on any type of higher power. When he said it, it was done. Just the way the Quran says that God wills in Surah 3:47 and 3:59. Can a mortal will miracles into existence?

He was a Jew probably from Galilee who became, by birth, adoption, miraculously or otherwise, the sacrificial lamb, who died in order to atone for the sins of people. At best he is God who leaves eternity to become a finite person with all the frailties of humans, including death, the incarnation being a part of his atoning work. At the very least he was a Jewish radical among a lot of Jewish radicals who gathered enough people around him so that the message he came to share did not die with his death, but grew in a strangely fertile Roman and Mediterranean environment. At any rate, I accept a supernatural reason for the spread of the gospel about a supernatural being whose mission is to save the creation from its separateness from God.

Hard evidence? Nope. But, I find the fact that the church spread the gospel, and that early Christians and Christianity survived, evidence of its fulfilling God's intentions.

can you just make it easy and show us the word trinity in the bible, that would be great

[Caladan 19]

The_dip_sticks, I hope your interpretation of Islam is better than your interpretation of Christianity, because you continually set yourself up as providing expert advice on both and you're continually getting Christianity wrong. Christianity is not a one book religion. Christians don't believe that the Bible was dictated by God. Instead it was a book put together by men who were inspired by God, and who had to decide which candidate letters and books were inspired by God, and which of the candidate books were false. And the creed of the faith is part of the faith, and it includes trying to figure out what sort of person Christ was. Christians don't believe that the Bible is the dictated word of God, and they disagree about how much of it meant as literally true.... but the important thing is that it's not meant to be read without thinking about it.

This lead to a lot of philosophy. And no, it doesn't say the word 'Trinity' in the Bible. (From what I recall, it doesn't give you specific instructions on how to do your prayers in the Quran, either... is that supposed to be a knockdown argument?) But it does say a lot of things, which monnik cited, about the nature of Jesus, the nature of God, and people argued that the best way to understand this was a triune God. There is only one God in Christianity. But God has three aspects. And there's been a lot of ink spilled on how to reconcile the Trinity with the idea that God is one.

You may not find it convincing, and that's fine, but saying 'omg where does it say trinity in the Bible' is really missing the point. Even the medieval Muslims had more of an argument than 'it isn't in the Bible silly Christians!'

[mybackpages 0]

JESUS=GOD?

I know of at least one verse from the Quran that says that Jesus arose after his death (Surah 19:30-35). Mortal men can't do that. Most of Jesus' miracles were performed without invocation; without calling on any type of higher power. When he said it, it was done. Just the way the Quran says that God wills in Surah 3:47 and 3:59. Can a mortal will miracles into existence?

Jesus was mortal. it was God who made all the things you point to happen. The Quran does not say Jesus rose after death. The death never occurerd. God is great.

[The_dip_sticks 0]

The_dip_sticks, I hope your interpretation of Islam is better than your interpretation of Christianity, because you continually set yourself up as providing expert advice on both and you're continually getting Christianity wrong. Christianity is not a one book religion. Christians don't believe that the Bible was dictated by God. Instead it was a book put together by men who were inspired by God, and who had to decide which candidate letters and books were inspired by God, and which of the candidate books were false. And the creed of the faith is part of the faith, and it includes trying to figure out what sort of person Christ was. Christians don't believe that the Bible is the dictated word of God, and they disagree about how much of it meant as literally true.... but the important thing is that it's not meant to be read without thinking about it.

This lead to a lot of philosophy. And no, it doesn't say the word 'Trinity' in the Bible. (From what I recall, it doesn't give you specific instructions on how to do your prayers in the Quran, either... is that supposed to be a knockdown argument?) But it does say a lot of things, which monnik cited, about the nature of Jesus, the nature of God, and people argued that the best way to understand this was a triune God. There is only one God in Christianity. But God has three aspects. And there's been a lot of ink spilled on how to reconcile the Trinity with the idea that God is one.

You may not find it convincing, and that's fine, but saying 'omg where does it say trinity in the Bible' is really missing the point. Even the medieval Muslims had more of an argument than 'it isn't in the Bible silly Christians!'

Ok I didnt set myself as an expert.

Actualy first of all you say I keep getting it christianity wrong but earlier the only arguments I made was not all christians believe that Jesus is God and this is infact true, for example universalist christians believe that Jesus was a prophet only and God is one, they are complete monotheist like muslims. You may argue they are "not good christians" but im sure they would argue otherwise.

Secondly I said some worship Mary i.e catholics and paying homage is a form of prayer as the bible says it is wrong and i gave you the evidence for that.

So from the two statements I made what exactly am I getting wrong or keep getting wrong as you say???

Third I can make a massive argument here on why trinitarian is false using the bible itself and quotes from the seperation of Jesus and God but I rather not I just wanted to know if there was actualy trinity in the bible in another form; for example the word "muslim" is in the bible in another form bet you didnt know that one. Also there are many christians themselves that dont believe in trinity.

Fourth you claim there is no specific instruction of prayer in the quran yes the prayer is all in the Quran.. The times of prayer, the actions of prayer and the words.

Also you said the bible was put togather by men inspired by God, who had to figure out which candidate letters and books were inspired by God.... that statement is almost contradictory. I know there are debates within christianity itself on who actualy were the authors of the bible. But what do you mean?

Peace

Adiel (Mireya's hubby)

[Caladan 19]

Christians don't believe the Bible was DICTATED by God. They believe it was INSPIRED by God, but that human beings wrote it. Not contradictory at all. The questions at the various councils were 'was this idea inspired by God, or is this idea only something that a man wrote without being inspired?'

I am sure you can google up yourself an argument on behalf of unitarians, but that doesn't change the fact that people who believe in the Trinity are not saying they believe in three gods.

Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.) Christians did not just decide to eat pork because they liked it. They're not bound by the old covenant, either. They're, well, a different religion from Judaism.

Perhaps pointing to verses in isolation is the way to interpret Islam, though what I've read suggests otherwise. But pointing to a random verse in the Bible is a very bad way to go about religious scholarship about Christianity. Most Christians don't accept that the Bible is the only source of truth about God.

---

Anyhow, my only point was saying that Muslims can marry Christians as long as they don't believe anything non-Muslim about Christ, and expecting that this will lead to happiness and flowers and bunnies just isn't going to happen. Most denominations of Christianity are trinitarian, most accept that Jesus is God, and most accept that Jesus died and was resurrected and that that's the whole shebang. It's not just as easy as 'Muslims believe in Jesus, too'; from a Christian perspective it looks like 'Muslims can marry Christians as long as they're not really committed to anything like standard Christianity.' And that's without getting into even the fun doctrinal differences.

[mybackpages 0]

JESUS=GOD?

I know of at least one verse from the Quran that says that Jesus arose after his death (Surah 19:30-35). Mortal men can't do that. Most of Jesus' miracles were performed without invocation; without calling on any type of higher power. When he said it, it was done. Just the way the Quran says that God wills in Surah 3:47 and 3:59. Can a mortal will miracles into existence?

Jesus was mortal. it was God who made all the things you point to happen. The Quran does not say Jesus rose after death. The death never occurerd. God is great.

I'll just correct myself. We dont know form the Quran is there wasa death or how God took Jesus from this earth. We do know there was never a crucifiction.

[The_dip_sticks 0]

Christians don't believe the Bible was DICTATED by God. They believe it was INSPIRED by God, but that human beings wrote it. Not contradictory at all. The questions at the various councils were 'was this idea inspired by God, or is this idea only something that a man wrote without being inspired?'

I am sure you can google up yourself an argument on behalf of unitarians, but that doesn't change the fact that people who believe in the Trinity are not saying they believe in three gods.

Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.) Christians did not just decide to eat pork because they liked it. They're not bound by the old covenant, either. They're, well, a different religion from Judaism.

Perhaps pointing to verses in isolation is the way to interpret Islam, though what I've read suggests otherwise. But pointing to a random verse in the Bible is a very bad way to go about religious scholarship about Christianity. Most Christians don't accept that the Bible is the only source of truth about God.

---

Anyhow, my only point was saying that Muslims can marry Christians as long as they don't believe anything non-Muslim about Christ, and expecting that this will lead to happiness and flowers and bunnies just isn't going to happen. Most denominations of Christianity are trinitarian, most accept that Jesus is God, and most accept that Jesus died and was resurrected and that that's the whole shebang. It's not just as easy as 'Muslims believe in Jesus, too'; from a Christian perspective it looks like 'Muslims can marry Christians as long as they're not really committed to anything like standard Christianity.' And that's without getting into even the fun doctrinal differences.

Many of the things you are saying are just different prespectives from christianity itself. Example not all christians believe Jesus to be God, some christians will say for example catholics worship mary. There are christians that do also follow the old covenant and dont eat pork, not all christians believe in the trinity. Im not taking random verses but merely pointing there are huge differences within christianity and all have legitimate arguments using the bible.

And your point about marriage was already stated from the Quran I stated that muslims can marry ANY faith not just jews and christians but ANY faith that believes in absolute monotheism. Trinity is not considered monotheist in Islam.

Peace

Adiel (Mireya's hubby)

Edited September 23, 2007 by The_dip_sticks

[Jenn! 918]

Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.)

Could you elaborate on this? I'm just curious. Growing up Catholic, I feel that I most definitely worshipped Mary. I guess it depends on what you mean by worship. I might even consider the saints as being worshipped in Catholicism.

[mybackpages 0]

Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.)

Could you elaborate on this? I'm just curious. Growing up Catholic, I feel that I most definitely worshipped Mary. I guess it depends on what you mean by worship. I might even consider the saints as being worshipped in Catholicism.

Dont you think veneration of Mary and the saints is different than worship? Worship to me implies divinity.

[Jenn! 918]

Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.)

Could you elaborate on this? I'm just curious. Growing up Catholic, I feel that I most definitely worshipped Mary. I guess it depends on what you mean by worship. I might even consider the saints as being worshipped in Catholicism.

Dont you think veneration of Mary and the saints is different than worship? Worship to me implies divinity.

I guess I can see the difference. But it's the prayer that blurs the distinction for me, I think. Sorry if this sounds ignorant, but are there any religions besides Catholicism where you pray to someone other than God? There must be, but I can't think of any at the moment.

[Jenn! 918]

I found this on Wikipedia:

Adoration versus veneration

Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy distinguish between adoration or latria (Latin adoratio, Greek latreia, [λατρεια]) which is due to God alone, and veneration or dulia (Latin veneratio, Greek douleia [δουλεια]), which may be lawfully offered to the saints. The external acts of veneration resemble those of worship, but differ in their object and intent. Protestant Christians question whether such a distinction is always maintained in actual devotional practice, especially at the level of folk religion.

Orthodox Judaism and orthodox Sunni Islam hold that for all practical purposes veneration should be considered the same as prayer; Orthodox Judaism (arguably with the exception of some Chasidic practices), orthodox Sunni Islam, and most kinds of Protestantism forbid veneration of saints or angels, classifying these actions as akin to idolatry.

Similarly, Jehovah's Witnesses assert that many actions classified as patriotic by other Protestant groups, such as saluting a flag, are equivalent to worship and are therefore considered idolatrous as well.

[mybackpages 0]

Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.)

Could you elaborate on this? I'm just curious. Growing up Catholic, I feel that I most definitely worshipped Mary. I guess it depends on what you mean by worship. I might even consider the saints as being worshipped in Catholicism.

Dont you think veneration of Mary and the saints is different than worship? Worship to me implies divinity.

I guess I can see the difference. But it's the prayer that blurs the distinction for me, I think. Sorry if this sounds ignorant, but are there any religions besides Catholicism where you pray to someone other than God? There must be, but I can't think of any at the moment.

sorry if this comes off as semantics, but praying to mary or the saints is not praying TO them as much as it is praying THROUGH them for intervention. does that make sense?

[Jenn! 918]

Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.)

Could you elaborate on this? I'm just curious. Growing up Catholic, I feel that I most definitely worshipped Mary. I guess it depends on what you mean by worship. I might even consider the saints as being worshipped in Catholicism.

Dont you think veneration of Mary and the saints is different than worship? Worship to me implies divinity.

I guess I can see the difference. But it's the prayer that blurs the distinction for me, I think. Sorry if this sounds ignorant, but are there any religions besides Catholicism where you pray to someone other than God? There must be, but I can't think of any at the moment.

sorry if this comes off as semantics, but praying to mary or the saints is not praying TO them as much as it is praying THROUGH them for intervention. does that make sense?

Yeah, I still don't really see much of a difference, but we can leave it at that. With my feelings about Catholicism being what they are it could turn ugly.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Interesting discussion.

"this also goes for men and women. not just can men marry another faith."

As a Muslima who was married to a Christian, I appreciate your enlightenment!

Whom, in Islamic theology, is a trinitarian, and therefore a polytheist (not a pagan)? Now,for Muslims and for Christians, that is a well debated question. Matthew 28:19 declares: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." The debate over the verses' meaning Godhead began and continues fom there.

Catholic trinitarians existed in the time of the Prophet, having established that as doctrine at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, nearly 3 centuries before the birth of Muhammad. The Council of Constantinople established the divinity of Christ in 381 AD. with an addition to the Nicean Creed: "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified who spoke by the Prophets and in One, Holy, Universal, and Apostolic Church. We confess one Baptism for the remission of sins and we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the coming age, Amen."

Islam emphatically rejects the concept of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Islam would hold Catholics and other trinitarian Christian sects to be polytheists. However, there are views of the trinity among Christians that perceive the trinity as a concept expressing the essential natures of God rather than having three Godheads. Christian doctrine varies by denomination, with some pronouncing Christian trinitarians as heretics, and some holding fast to some form of trinitarianism. As with many articles of faith, there is more than one interpretation.

The Prophet was married to Mariam, a Coptic Christian, although there is some dispute about whether she was required to convert to Islam prior to marriage (also some dispute about whether she was a wife or a concubine). The disputes over the status of their marriage and her religion are primarily due to the conflict over whether a Muslim is allowed to marry a Catholic. Muslims who cling to the idea that Christians are polytheists because of the trinity, and/or that their belief in Jesus as God is a blasphemy will not accept marriage between a Muslim and a Christian of any ilk because of verses in the Quran that clearly prohibit marriage between Muslims and polytheists, 2:221 being the strongest directive re the issue.

Believe what he says, that he will not marry you, and move on. Your heart will heal in time, and there are too many fish in the sea to waste time in a dry hole.

Best wishes to you!

[doodlebug 3]

Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.)

Could you elaborate on this? I'm just curious. Growing up Catholic, I feel that I most definitely worshipped Mary. I guess it depends on what you mean by worship. I might even consider the saints as being worshipped in Catholicism.

Dont you think veneration of Mary and the saints is different than worship? Worship to me implies divinity.

I guess I can see the difference. But it's the prayer that blurs the distinction for me, I think. Sorry if this sounds ignorant, but are there any religions besides Catholicism where you pray to someone other than God? There must be, but I can't think of any at the moment.

sorry if this comes off as semantics, but praying to mary or the saints is not praying TO them as much as it is praying THROUGH them for intervention. does that make sense?

Yeah, I still don't really see much of a difference, but we can leave it at that. With my feelings about Catholicism being what they are it could turn ugly.

ugh i just typed out like five paragraphs and then lost it. Anyway I can see where you're coming from and my point in all that I wrote and lost is that I was so wrapped up in praying the rosary each day and celebrating various Saint's days that I lost site of God.

Edited September 23, 2007 by doodlebug