The hadith is not islam!

[Alhamdulillah 0]

I'm not here to justify my beliefs nor do I care what you or anyone else believes in, I wouldnt even care if someone prayed to satan, thats their business.

Then my advice would be not to start topics about your beliefs or against other people's beliefs on an immigration forum. It's going to start a fight when you insult others' beliefs whether that's what you intended or not.

This isn't a religious forum, it's for immigration. There are many religious forums in existance where one can go and debate religious matters... this type of debate only causes problems here... it always has and it seems it always will.

BTW, if you're not fluent in the language in which the Quran was revealed, then you're probably the least qualified to explain it IMHO

[The_dip_sticks 0]

I'm not here to justify my beliefs nor do I care what you or anyone else believes in, I wouldnt even care if someone prayed to satan, thats their business.

Then my advice would be not to start topics about your beliefs or against other people's beliefs on an immigration forum. It's going to start a fight when you insult others' beliefs whether that's what you intended or not.

This isn't a religious forum, it's for immigration. There are many religious forums in existance where one can go and debate religious matters... this type of debate only causes problems here... it always has and it seems it always will.

BTW, if you're not fluent in the language in which the Quran was revealed, then you're probably the least qualified to explain it IMHO

Hi,

Thanks for your advise I'll graciously decline.

I posted on here because many people are coming into Islam and I thought it would be nice for them to see it in another angle.

Again I have stated so many times now to you, these are no more than my personal understanding, the only one it seems to annoy is you... if you are so sure in your beliefs you shouldnt even care or maybe you are not and thats why it annoys you??

Again assumptions... im beginning to think you foresee things or maybe a mind reader?... I started reading the Quran when I was 5 or 6 in ARABIC!

Best advise for you sir is dont read my topics if it annoys you.

Peace

Adiel (mireya's hubby)

[Alhamdulillah 0]

Thanks for your advise I'll graciously decline.

I posted on here because many people are coming into Islam and I thought it would be nice for them to see it in another angle.

Again I have stated so many times now to you, these are no more than my personal understanding, the only one it seems to annoy is you... if you are so sure in your beliefs you shouldnt even care or maybe you are not and thats why it annoys you??

Again assumptions... im beginning to think you foresee things or maybe a mind reader?... I started reading the Quran when I was 5 or 6 in ARABIC!

Best advise for you sir is dont read my topics if it annoys you.

Peace

Adiel (mireya's hubby)

You are free to accept or decline any advice I give. I'm not annoyed with you in the least... it's you who seems to be annoyed with me for having a belief other than yours and defending it against your insults. If you want to post about beliefs here then don't be surprised or annoyed when someone with different views replies.... that is sure to be the outcome.

I asked if you are Arab and have studied the Arabic language to which you responded with a no... it doesn't take a mind-reader when the other party provides the answers outright. Millions of people read and recite the Quran in Arabic everyday with absolutely no understanding of the Arabic language or what they are reading/reciting.... they also shouldn't bother with tafseer since they are relying on the tafseer of another.

I'll read anything I please sir. If you don't want others reading it then, again, perhaps it's best if you don't post it

Edited September 5, 2007 by Alhamdulillah

[The_dip_sticks 0]

Thanks for your advise I'll graciously decline.

I posted on here because many people are coming into Islam and I thought it would be nice for them to see it in another angle.

Again I have stated so many times now to you, these are no more than my personal understanding, the only one it seems to annoy is you... if you are so sure in your beliefs you shouldnt even care or maybe you are not and thats why it annoys you??

Again assumptions... im beginning to think you foresee things or maybe a mind reader?... I started reading the Quran when I was 5 or 6 in ARABIC!

Best advise for you sir is dont read my topics if it annoys you.

Peace

Adiel (mireya's hubby)

You are free to accept or decline any advice I give. I'm not annoyed with you in the least... it's you who seems to be annoyed with me for having a belief other than yours and defending it against your insults. If you want to post about beliefs here then don't be surprised or annoyed when someone with different views replies.... that is sure to be the outcome.

I asked if you are Arab and have studied the Arabic language to which you responded with a no... it doesn't take a mind-reader when the other party provides the answers outright. Millions of people read and recite the Quran in Arabic everyday with absolutely no understanding of the Arabic language or what they are reading/reciting.... they also shouldn't bother with tafseer since they are relying on the tafseer of another.

I'll read anything I please sir. If you don't want others reading it then, again, perhaps it's best if you don't post it

Hi,

not quite sure how you ASSUMED once more that im annoyed??... strange.. or did you not read that I dont even care if someone is a satanist. Infact my wife is a catholic its way different from my beliefs and it doesnt annoy me either. No more assuming sir, just ask

also I didnt respond no to reading arabic my response was Im not arab im british.

Finally if it does'nt annoy you than its great continue reading my topics as there will be PLENTY more to keep you entertained.

Peace

Adiel (Mireya's hubby)

[The_dip_sticks 0]

Adiel (Mireya's hubby)---thank you for posting---i for one appreciate your understanding of Islam.

chi

Muchas Gracias

[Alhamdulillah 0]

Hi,

not quite sure how you ASSUMED once more that im annoyed??... strange.. or did you not read that I dont even care if someone is a satanist. Infact my wife is a catholic its way different from my beliefs and it doesnt annoy me either. No more assuming sir, just ask

also I didnt respond no to reading arabic my response was Im not arab im british.

Finally if it does'nt annoy you than its great continue reading my topics as there will be PLENTY more to keep you entertained.

Peace

Adiel (Mireya's hubby)

The question I posed was "Are you Arab? and Have you studied the Arabic language?" You answered no, you're a brit....

You seem annoyed as you attempt to project your annoyance (is that a word?) onto me..... don't hate when I reply to your entertaining threads

And I'm not a sir, sir.

Edited September 5, 2007 by Alhamdulillah

[The_dip_sticks 0]

Hi,

not quite sure how you ASSUMED once more that im annoyed??... strange.. or did you not read that I dont even care if someone is a satanist. Infact my wife is a catholic its way different from my beliefs and it doesnt annoy me either. No more assuming sir, just ask

also I didnt respond no to reading arabic my response was Im not arab im british.

Finally if it does'nt annoy you than its great continue reading my topics as there will be PLENTY more to keep you entertained.

Peace

Adiel (Mireya's hubby)

The question I posed was "Are you Arab? and Have you studied the Arabic language?" You answered no, you're a brit....

You seem annoyed as you attempt to project your annoyance (is that a word?) onto me..... don't hate when I reply to your entertaining threads

And I'm not a sir, sir.

Hi,

Ah I understand, maybe your english is not up to scratch. I have not projected any annoyance on to you, I feel sorry that you feel that way. Infact I embrace varient beliefs, my father is an atheist, my mother is a wahabi, my brother is a sunni and my wife is catholic... such diversity is so refreshing. As I stated so many times dont assume, it isnt a conspiracy I am not annoyed, not in the least, especially with you, infact on the contrary I actually enjoyed the discussion. I do wish I made it quite clear now madam, so you no longer have to assume.

Peace

Adiel (Mireya's hubby)

[Ban Hammer 12,880]

[Alhamdulillah 0]

Ah I understand, maybe your english is not up to scratch.

English is my first language

[coolred38 0]

Alhamdulilah

We dont need to look at hadeeth to get an accurate picture of how the prophet treated his wives....we've got quite a few reliable hisotrical texts floating around the globe at this very moment. I imagine those writers did not rely exclusively on hadeeth to formulate an approximate lifestyle of the prophet...

Also, why do people who do speak arabic always tell people who dont speak or read arabic that they will NEVER truly understand the Quran cause they dont understand arabic.....meanwhile Arab Scholars who do speak and read and apparently comprehend arabic dont always agree on what it says in the Quran either....so whats up with that? The ayat that refers to "beating" has been debated for eons over whether it means to beat or something else...and thats by arabs who know arabic and dont have any language barriers or comprehension downfalls Im assuming.....so its not knowing the language that should be a sign of imcomprehension ....but not understanding Gods Mercy and Forgiveness and constant guidance in all things Fair and Equitable.

Not because scores of scholars before us all "agreed" that an ayat means something....means they are right and we are wrong...after all only God knows what God REALLY means....and dont forget....just because a whole group of people believe one thing and just one guy believes something else doesnt mean the one guy is automatically wrong....brings to mind that interesting dude that claimed the world was round when everyone else was believing it was flat....he was threatened with death by the clergy of the CHURCH unless he recanted his beliefs.....sometimes you just believe what you believe no matter what the herd mentality is telling you is true.... And in the end God knows best.

[caybee 21]

Just wanted to say that I appreciate these discussions a great deal in ways that I can't really express right now.

As for the secondary part of this thread where things have heated up a bit, I do hope the folks involved can continue to express their opinions without going personal about it. Honestly, hearing several points of view is so valuable.

I will say one thing which has frustrated me. I have been told that my English translation of the Quran will help me but that ultimately I won't understand everything I need to understand because the only real Quran is in Arabic. Okay, I can accept this, but were I to learn Arabic, were I to study Arabic through the last years of my life, I would never truly understand Arabic. My reading of the Quran would still be a translation, but instead, I would be doing the translation in my head. I believe my own translation would be far less reliable than that of scholars who have been essentially bilingual since birth and who have other scholars to agree or disagree publicly with their translation. I don't know Arabic. I was not born into a Muslim family. I didn't know any Muslims growing up. So now, if I approach Islam and the Quran from where I am, will I always get that pat on the head, "nice try, kid, but"... ? Will I always be "less than" those "born speaking" Arabic or "born into" the religion? I can answer with what I believe. What I believe is no, that God sees us as equals and will never see my questions and opinions as any less valid than those of someone who was born in a particular place or to particular parents. So my faith is between me and God, and I will go to God without fear or shame with whatever questions I have, without feeling pressured to believe this or that just because another living, breathing human being says I should. But I won't be sharing much of what I believe with other people in the real world, at least not at this time. It's too tender and too precious. Does it make sense that the Bible and the Quran can both move me to tears, that when I pray I believe I am praying to the God that I know from the Bible and that he is the same as the God who gave the Quran? But people murder each other over this! Maybe a naive statement for me to make -- it's something a kid will say, "Why are they fighting?" The problem is that nobody ever answers the kid.

Years ago, I made a comment about current events that my uncle disagreed with. His response was that since I had not lived through World War II, I would never really understand how the world works, and therefore my opinions about politics, international relations, all of that, were not as valid as his own. Okay, so, boom, now he has won every argument we will ever have. I never felt any desire to express an opinion to him after that day. I feel the same frustration when the trump card in an argument is language or background or "because God says so." You don't speak it or you weren't born into it. Therefore, your opinions will always have less weight than someone else's. I can accept this when it comes to sociology, to understanding man-made traditions and so on. But in matters of religion, I simply do not believe the God who made us all equal intended to set us against each other that way. So I'm still muddling through that mess when it comes to learning about Islam, and Christianity as well, for that matter. And I'm not going to give up based on games of semantics that people want to play with each other and which, in my opinion, guide us away from the true message.

Maybe this doesn't belong on VJ, but there's really no other place I can express it. So thanks for listening, and back to topic...

[rclouse 0]

I don't have the time (unfortunately) to read this whole thread, but I would like to say that I think that individual hadith should be followed only if it makes sense to you. For example, this hadith makes absolutely no sense to me:

Book 38, Number 4348:

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.

He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

Source.

Basically, if you want to kill someone, do so and say s/he was insulting the Prophet. You'll get away with murder.

[bszoom42 0]

Basically, if you want to kill someone, do so and say s/he was insulting the Prophet. You'll get away with murder.

I would think that the reason the blind man was able to murder was not because he accused someone of insulting the Prophet, but because that person was actually insulting the Prophet.

Ignoring that point - I tend to agree with you - it is far safer to ignore the verses/chapters/surahs that make no sense to you, as you might not be interpreting them properly. Better to speak to someone more qualified and have them explain it to you.

Edited September 6, 2007 by bszoom42

[The_dip_sticks 0]

I don't have the time (unfortunately) to read this whole thread, but I would like to say that I think that individual hadith should be followed only if it makes sense to you. For example, this hadith makes absolutely no sense to me:

Book 38, Number 4348:

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.

He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

Source.

Basically, if you want to kill someone, do so and say s/he was insulting the Prophet. You'll get away with murder.

He must of not been too blind if he was able to look for a dagger and kill her.

[chiquita 0]

Just wanted to say that I appreciate these discussions a great deal in ways that I can't really express right now.

As for the secondary part of this thread where things have heated up a bit, I do hope the folks involved can continue to express their opinions without going personal about it. Honestly, hearing several points of view is so valuable.

I will say one thing which has frustrated me. I have been told that my English translation of the Quran will help me but that ultimately I won't understand everything I need to understand because the only real Quran is in Arabic. Okay, I can accept this, but were I to learn Arabic, were I to study Arabic through the last years of my life, I would never truly understand Arabic. My reading of the Quran would still be a translation, but instead, I would be doing the translation in my head. I believe my own translation would be far less reliable than that of scholars who have been essentially bilingual since birth and who have other scholars to agree or disagree publicly with their translation. I don't know Arabic. I was not born into a Muslim family. I didn't know any Muslims growing up. So now, if I approach Islam and the Quran from where I am, will I always get that pat on the head, "nice try, kid, but"... ? Will I always be "less than" those "born speaking" Arabic or "born into" the religion? I can answer with what I believe. What I believe is no, that God sees us as equals and will never see my questions and opinions as any less valid than those of someone who was born in a particular place or to particular parents. So my faith is between me and God, and I will go to God without fear or shame with whatever questions I have, without feeling pressured to believe this or that just because another living, breathing human being says I should. But I won't be sharing much of what I believe with other people in the real world, at least not at this time. It's too tender and too precious. Does it make sense that the Bible and the Quran can both move me to tears, that when I pray I believe I am praying to the God that I know from the Bible and that he is the same as the God who gave the Quran? But people murder each other over this! Maybe a naive statement for me to make -- it's something a kid will say, "Why are they fighting?" The problem is that nobody ever answers the kid.

Years ago, I made a comment about current events that my uncle disagreed with. His response was that since I had not lived through World War II, I would never really understand how the world works, and therefore my opinions about politics, international relations, all of that, were not as valid as his own. Okay, so, boom, now he has won every argument we will ever have. I never felt any desire to express an opinion to him after that day. I feel the same frustration when the trump card in an argument is language or background or "because God says so." You don't speak it or you weren't born into it. Therefore, your opinions will always have less weight than someone else's. I can accept this when it comes to sociology, to understanding man-made traditions and so on. But in matters of religion, I simply do not believe the God who made us all equal intended to set us against each other that way. So I'm still muddling through that mess when it comes to learning about Islam, and Christianity as well, for that matter. And I'm not going to give up based on games of semantics that people want to play with each other and which, in my opinion, guide us away from the true message.

Maybe this doesn't belong on VJ, but there's really no other place I can express it. So thanks for listening, and back to topic...

honestly---you took the words right out of my mouth!! every word speaks from my heart as well.

chi