Senate resuscitates immigration bill

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Amnesty is just.

Really? By that measure, shoplifters should no longer fear prosecution. There are millions of them and according to your logic, it would be just to just let them have at it.

I think a better analogy for you would be something like jaywalking or driving five miles over the speed limit, because that's about as well as immigration has been enforced. And yes, if someone decided we needed to arrest all the jaywalkers (BECAUSE THEY'RE DOING SOMETHING ILLEGAL!!!), I'd think there were better use of society's resources.

Neither jaywalking nor exceeding the speed limit by 5mph costs this nation upwards of $10,000,000,000.00 per year. Your analogy doesn't fly.

[poppscc 0]

I dont see how members of this board can support such a bill. Some of us have gone through a lot of trouble to get our loved ones into the US, and the government raises fees for the ones doing it the right way, but for those that cheat the system... oh well, lets just give them amnesty... If I could pay a fee for citizenship, I'd send all of my family members here immediately. The preferential treatment is ridiculous.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I dont see how members of this board can support such a bill.

They're everywhere....

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I dont see how members of this board can support such a bill. Some of us have gone through a lot of trouble to get our loved ones into the US, and the government raises fees for the ones doing it the right way, but for those that cheat the system... oh well, lets just give them amnesty... If I could pay a fee for citizenship, I'd send all of my family members here immediately. The preferential treatment is ridiculous.

Isn't it a question of practicalities more than anything? Whether or not we think that these people should be removed there is still something amounting to due process in immigration courts - if people wanted to they could easily gum up the works with appeal cases, during which time the government would be obligated to provide financial assistance (this happens in the UK BTW - and is a source of frustration in the immigration debate over there).

On this issue I just don't see law enforcement making anything more than a short-term impact on it. That's not the same as whether I consider it to be fair. The very many people who are already here, some of whom have ties to USC's in this country or are integrated in other ways into our society - have IMO a claim to legitimacy based on the weight of numbers (from a practical - not moral perspective) and the fact that various governments made a deliberate choice to ignore this problem for their own political and economic self-interest.

Edited June 27, 2007 by erekose

[Boiler 47,526]

Unless I’m much mistaken - the major point of liability for an illegal immigrant is their entry into the country, not their continued presence. To follow the analogy its like drink driving once – not everyday.

And yes if you're out there actively breaking the law on a daily basis you will/should be caught and prosecuted. If you broke the law once years ago for a crime that wasn't enforced its hard to see how a person can be pulled up for it now. Its not like we’re talking about murder or anything like that…

Unfortunately the people I know do have to break the law everyday.

They work with forged documentation

They drive

And many of the other aspects of normal life require

fudging

.

The Employers I know, well it is difficult to address the issue directly as they have to maintain a front , but I know some are having to pay $20 an hour plus in certain key areas, which rather of course defeats the object. But those areas have been pretty much denuded of Documented Americans.

Actually I know one person who has a cleaning business and her she employs Documented Americans, but that is in Boulder, a niche market who are prepared to pay for the novelty factor. And she has a supply of College Students to draw on.

Edited June 27, 2007 by Boiler

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Unfortnately the people I know do have to break the law everyday.

They work with forged documentation

They drive

And many of the other aspects of normal life require fudging.

The Employers I know, well it is difficult to address the issue directly as they have to maintain a front , but I know some are having to pay $20 an hour plus in certain key areas, which rather of course defeats the object. But those areas have been pretty much denuded of Documented Americans.

Actually I know one person who has a cleaning business and her she employs Documented Americans, but that is in Boulder, a niche market who are prepared to pay for the novelty factor. And she has a supply of College Students to draw on.

Yeah - but in the main they don't charged with 'fudging' offenses. The act that makes them 'illegally present' is the act of undocumented entry or visa overstay - not anything else they do.

[poppscc 0]

I dont see how members of this board can support such a bill. Some of us have gone through a lot of trouble to get our loved ones into the US, and the government raises fees for the ones doing it the right way, but for those that cheat the system... oh well, lets just give them amnesty... If I could pay a fee for citizenship, I'd send all of my family members here immediately. The preferential treatment is ridiculous.

Isn't it a question of practicalities more than anything? Whether or not we think that these people should be removed there is still something amounting to due process in immigration courts - if people wanted to they could easily gum up the works with appeal cases, during which time the government would be obligated to provide financial assistance (this happens in the UK BTW - and is a source of frustration in the immigration debate over there).

On this issue I just don't see law enforcement making anything more than a short-term impact on it. That's not the same as whether I consider it to be fair. The very many people who are already here, some of whom have ties to USC's in this country or are integrated in other ways into our society - have IMO a claim to legitimacy based on the weight of numbers (from a practical - not moral perspective) and the fact that various governments made a deliberate choice to ignore this problem for their own political and economic self-interest.

if you dont see government having to enforce the existing laws, what makes you think they will follow the rest of the bill? Seems like a cherry picking tactic.... they'll choose what they want to do with the legislation. We were promised a fence, but how much of that was built?

Practicality would be to reform our welfare system and enforce our existing laws. I see this as nothing more than a method to buy votes and cheap labor. The ones getting screwed are the tax payers. Does the government have the will to enforce existing laws? Does it still mean something to become a citizen of the USA?

[Dan J 277]

Show me an illegal alien making $100,000 a year and grateful for a measly $5,000 penalty, and I'll show you a highly motivated and smart person who I want working in the American economy anyway.

Do you have any idea how much a construction worker makes? It can be easily upward of $100,000 a year.

Are you sure thats what the pay-by-cash day-labor types are pulling in? Especially when there are more people looking for work that work to be done?

And I thought one of the major arguments for their legalization is that they are doing the jobs that otherwise won't be done? Now we're turning around and saying that there are more illegals than there are jobs they can fill so they ahve to work for rock bottom wages and wouldn't owe any taxes? Whichever way the wind blows...

Every job market has more people willing to work then jobs, Thats why we have unemployment. If there was work for everybody, unemployment would be at 0%.

So, no, not all construction day-laborers get to work every day. But most of them still do.

[Dan J 277]

Amnesty is just.

Really? By that measure, shoplifters should no longer fear prosecution. There are millions of them and according to your logic, it would be just to just let them have at it.

I think a better analogy for you would be something like jaywalking or driving five miles over the speed limit, because that's about as well as immigration has been enforced. And yes, if someone decided we needed to arrest all the jaywalkers (BECAUSE THEY'RE DOING SOMETHING ILLEGAL!!!), I'd think there were better use of society's resources.

Neither jaywalking nor exceeding the speed limit by 5mph costs this nation upwards of $10,000,000,000.00 per year. Your analogy doesn't fly.

How much money do illegal aliens generate in with their economic contribution? Lower prices has got to be worth something? Indirectly generating more jobs for higher skilled works has to be worth something too?

[GaryC 7]

These analogies are abstract enough IMO – without introducing sarcastic logic-riddles that add nothing to the point being made.

Unless I’m much mistaken - the major point of liability for an illegal immigrant is their entry into the country, not their continued presence. To follow the analogy its like drink driving once – not everyday.

And yes if you're out there actively breaking the law on a daily basis you will/should be caught and prosecuted. If you broke the law once years ago for a crime that wasn't enforced its hard to see how a person can be pulled up for it now. Its not like we’re talking about murder or anything like that…

Good! I am glad you finally have seen the light. Illegal aliens are breaking the law every day they are here so I am glad to see you want them caught and prosecuted. What law they are breaking every day you ask? This one:

§ 1325. Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts

Any alien who

(1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or

(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or

(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/usc...25----000-.html

And those who hire them are breaking the law on a daily basis:

Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(B)(iii)

"Any person who . . . encourages or induces an illegal alien to . . . reside . . . knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such . . . residence is . . . in violation of law, shall be punished as provided . . . for each illegal alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs . . . fined under title 18 . . . imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both."

Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):

A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:

* assists an illegal alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or

* encourages that illegal alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or

* knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.

Penalties upon conviction include criminal fines, imprisonment, and forfeiture of vehicles and real property used to commit the crime. Anyone employing or contracting with an illegal alien without verifying his or her work authorization status is guilty of a misdemeanor. Aliens and employers violating immigration laws are subject to arrest, detention, and seizure of their vehicles or property. In addition, individuals or entities who engage in racketeering enterprises that commit (or conspire to commit) immigration-related felonies are subject to private civil suits for treble damages and injunctive relief.

http://www.mnforsustain.org/immigration_hi...rom_us_code.htm

So it's good to see that you want these guys caught and punished. Welcome to our side!!!

ETA. And don't forget that working without EAD is also against the law.

Edited June 27, 2007 by Iniibig ko si Luz forever

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I dont see how members of this board can support such a bill. Some of us have gone through a lot of trouble to get our loved ones into the US, and the government raises fees for the ones doing it the right way, but for those that cheat the system... oh well, lets just give them amnesty... If I could pay a fee for citizenship, I'd send all of my family members here immediately. The preferential treatment is ridiculous.

Isn't it a question of practicalities more than anything? Whether or not we think that these people should be removed there is still something amounting to due process in immigration courts - if people wanted to they could easily gum up the works with appeal cases, during which time the government would be obligated to provide financial assistance (this happens in the UK BTW - and is a source of frustration in the immigration debate over there).

On this issue I just don't see law enforcement making anything more than a short-term impact on it. That's not the same as whether I consider it to be fair. The very many people who are already here, some of whom have ties to USC's in this country or are integrated in other ways into our society - have IMO a claim to legitimacy based on the weight of numbers (from a practical - not moral perspective) and the fact that various governments made a deliberate choice to ignore this problem for their own political and economic self-interest.

if you dont see government having to enforce the existing laws, what makes you think they will follow the rest of the bill? Seems like a cherry picking tactic.... they'll choose what they want to do with the legislation. We were promised a fence, but how much of that was built?

Practicality would be to reform our welfare system and enforce our existing laws. I see this as nothing more than a method to buy votes and cheap labor. The ones getting screwed are the tax payers. Does the government have the will to enforce existing laws? Does it still mean something to become a citizen of the USA?

I didn't say I don't think they shouldn't enforce the existing laws - they should. But they should have done it years ago before 11 million people rolled over the border. Its all well and good getting outraged about it now - but nothing changes the fact that our elected representatives for various reasons chose to do nothing; and the voters didn't seem too concerned to hold them to account for it.

What I'm sceptical of is whether the govt. will actually stand up and implement a strategy that will have anything but a short-term impact. In that sense I see an amnesty of some sort of another as being more or less inevitable. For the most part - I'm opposed to that, but I can see a valid argument for legitimacy for people who have been here many years and have significant ties to this country.

Enforcing our laws is all well and good in theory - but I've yet to hear anyone explain practically how that would work. It would surely have to involve some sort of audit programme by the IRS and/or USCIS - and I'm honestly not sure how practically enforceable that would be to target employers en-masse.

No need for a fence either - seeing as we have a huge desert to act as a natural barrier. Would be more effective (and cheaper IMO) to build some army barracks and station troop patrols. Of course we're a little short on soldiers these days...

[mawilson 2,133]

I didn't say I don't think they shouldn't enforce the existing laws - they should. But they should have done it years ago before 11 million people rolled over the border.

That's silly.

In 1986 there were 2 million people who had rolled over the border. If the government

started enforcing the laws then, there wouldn't be 11 million illegals here today.

If we start enforcing the laws now, we won't have 30 million illegals 10 years from now.

[GaryC 7]

erekose, please tell me if you now agree that illegal aliens are daily breaking the law. If not please let me know your reasoning.

[Dan J 277]

I didn't say I don't think they shouldn't enforce the existing laws - they should. But they should have done it years ago before 11 million people rolled over the border.

That's silly.

In 1986 there were 2 million people who had rolled over the border. If the government

started enforcing the laws then, there wouldn't be 11 million illegals here today.

If we start enforcing the laws now, we won't have 30 million illegals 10 years from now.

Same could be said about unskilled worker visas. If we had them in 1986, there would have been a legal way for those 12 million people to get here.

[Boiler 47,526]

Unfortnately the people I know do have to break the law everyday.

They work with forged documentation

They drive

And many of the other aspects of normal life require fudging.

The Employers I know, well it is difficult to address the issue directly as they have to maintain a front , but I know some are having to pay $20 an hour plus in certain key areas, which rather of course defeats the object. But those areas have been pretty much denuded of Documented Americans.

Actually I know one person who has a cleaning business and her she employs Documented Americans, but that is in Boulder, a niche market who are prepared to pay for the novelty factor. And she has a supply of College Students to draw on.

Yeah - but in the main they don't charged with 'fudging' offenses. The act that makes them 'illegally present' is the act of undocumented entry or visa overstay - not anything else they do.

In my State you need a valid driving license to drive. And to get Auto Insurance.