Senate resuscitates immigration bill

[natty bumppo 297]

But you can pay taxes with an ITIN.

Which still leaves the work eligibility record incomplete. Gotta cheat on that...

Unless the employer doesn't ask - or pays off-books.

Isn't that cheating ?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

But you can pay taxes with an ITIN.

Which still leaves the work eligibility record incomplete. Gotta cheat on that...

Unless the employer doesn't ask - or pays off-books.

Isn't that cheating ?

Yes - but the onus is as much on the employer as the employee.

[Dan J 277]

Lets see, we do have something on Tax Evasion:

http://uscode.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/...01----000-.html

It looks like staying doesn't itself constitute another crime. But it does make you deportable. If you are deported and you don't go, then you are committing a crime: http://uscode.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/...24---d000-.html

I cant find anything on paying taxes but with an SSN or ITN thats not yours. Not to say that there isn't any, I just cant find it.

So lets see here.

We agree that illegal entry is a crime, but only a one time crime. Not a crime thats somehow constantly committed as long as a person stays in the country.

Its a crime for an employer to knowingly hire an illegal alien. But not for the alien to work with or without documentation.

Stay until you are deported does not constitute a crime. Only avoiding deportation.

So if an illegal alien, pays taxes, the only crime they committed was entering illegally.

[GaryC 7]

I used to do sub-contractor work which I believe the day laborers fall under. I was paid cash and it was up to me to report my earnings, pay my taxes and make quarterly filings. Do you seriously think that any more than a minor persentage of illegals do this? If you don't your in violation of federal tax laws. That is not a minor offense and many people have spent years in jail for it. Yes, illegals violate the law daily.

[Dan J 277]

I used to do sub-contractor work which I believe the day laborers fall under. I was paid cash and it was up to me to report my earnings, pay my taxes and make quarterly filings. Do you seriously think that any more than a minor persentage of illegals do this? If you don't your in violation of federal tax laws. That is not a minor offense and many people have spent years in jail for it. Yes, illegals violate the law daily.

Not all are employed as day labors, some are employed by businesses and have taxes taken out like the rest of us. Although the social security benefit is likely going to someone else or someone who doesn't exist.

But I also think a very minor percentage of day laborers do, legal or not.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Dan + Gemvita

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I used to do sub-contractor work which I believe the day laborers fall under. I was paid cash and it was up to me to report my earnings, pay my taxes and make quarterly filings. Do you seriously think that any more than a minor persentage of illegals do this? If you don't your in violation of federal tax laws. That is not a minor offense and many people have spent years in jail for it. Yes, illegals violate the law daily.

Tax evasion? Gary, I think we're together on this.

IRS Says Offshore

Tax Evasion Is Widespread

By David Cay Johnston

The I.R.S. said yesterday that Americans in far greater numbers than it had once thought were evading taxes by secretly depositing money in tax havens like the Cayman Islands and withdrawing it using American Express, MasterCard and Visa cards. The I.R.S. said its estimate that one million to two million Americans

might be using such accounts was based on records that it had obtained by summons from MasterCard of 230,000 bank accounts in three tax-haven countries.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations/corrup...0326evasion.htm

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

So if an illegal alien, pays taxes, the only crime they committed was entering illegally.

Care to demonstrate how that alien established work eligibility w/o committing yet another crime?

[Dan J 277]

So if an illegal alien, pays taxes, the only crime they committed was entering illegally.

Care to demonstrate how that alien established work eligibility w/o committing yet another crime?

As far as I can tell that doesn't matter. Only employers hiring people that are not eligible. But I'm also not saying its not in the US Code, I just haven't found it yet.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

So if an illegal alien, pays taxes, the only crime they committed was entering illegally.

Care to demonstrate how that alien established work eligibility w/o committing yet another crime?

As far as I can tell that doesn't matter. Only employers hiring people that are not eligible. But I'm also not saying its not in the US Code, I just haven't found it yet.

It matters a great deal. If an illegal is on a tax paying payroll, that illegal would have filled out an I-9 where the illegal would have to falsify the record in order to establish employment eligibility. Otherwise, the illegal is paid under the table and therefore does not pay taxes. Take your pick but one way or another, there is more than the illegal entry on the criminal record.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So if an illegal alien, pays taxes, the only crime they committed was entering illegally.

Care to demonstrate how that alien established work eligibility w/o committing yet another crime?

As far as I can tell that doesn't matter. Only employers hiring people that are not eligible. But I'm also not saying its not in the US Code, I just haven't found it yet.

It matters a great deal. If an illegal is on a tax paying payroll, that illegal would have filled out an I-9 where the illegal would have to falsify the record in order to establish employment eligibility. Otherwise, the illegal is paid under the table and therefore does not pay taxes. Take your pick but one way or another, there is more than the illegal entry on the criminal record.

Only if it can be proven via a paper trail. Otherwise all you've got is the illegal entry.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

So if an illegal alien, pays taxes, the only crime they committed was entering illegally.

Care to demonstrate how that alien established work eligibility w/o committing yet another crime?

As far as I can tell that doesn't matter. Only employers hiring people that are not eligible. But I'm also not saying its not in the US Code, I just haven't found it yet.

It matters a great deal. If an illegal is on a tax paying payroll, that illegal would have filled out an I-9 where the illegal would have to falsify the record in order to establish employment eligibility. Otherwise, the illegal is paid under the table and therefore does not pay taxes. Take your pick but one way or another, there is more than the illegal entry on the criminal record.

Only if it can be proven via a paper trail. Otherwise all you've got is the illegal entry.

Look, I've been in hiring positions in this country for a good long while. The documentation is not a nice to have. It's a must. For every employee on a legitimate tax paying payroll, there is an I-9. It's just that simple.

[Dan J 277]

So if an illegal alien, pays taxes, the only crime they committed was entering illegally.

Care to demonstrate how that alien established work eligibility w/o committing yet another crime?

As far as I can tell that doesn't matter. Only employers hiring people that are not eligible. But I'm also not saying its not in the US Code, I just haven't found it yet.

It matters a great deal. If an illegal is on a tax paying payroll, that illegal would have filled out an I-9 where the illegal would have to falsify the record in order to establish employment eligibility. Otherwise, the illegal is paid under the table and therefore does not pay taxes. Take your pick but one way or another, there is more than the illegal entry on the criminal record.

Only if it can be proven via a paper trail. Otherwise all you've got is the illegal entry.

Look, I've been in hiring positions in this country for a good long while. The documentation is not a nice to have. It's a must. For every employee on a legitimate tax paying payroll, there is an I-9. It's just that simple.

Most of the burden is still on the employer and the government.

There is this that would apply to the employee from http://www.osha.gov/pls/epub/wageindex.dow...9_Handbook.pdf:

C. CIVIL DOCUMENT FRAUD

If an investigation reveals that an individual has knowingly committed or participated in acts relating to document fraud (see Part 1), the INS may take action. When the INS intends to impose penalties, a Notice of Intent to Fine (NIF) is issued. Persons who receive a NIF may request a hearing before an administrative law judge. It a request for a hearing is not received within 30 days, the penalty will be imposed and a Final Order will be issued. When a Final Order is issued, this penalty is final and unappealable.

Individuals may be ordered to pay a civil money penalty as follows:

*

First Offense. Not less than $250 and not more than $2,000 for each fraudulent document used, accepted, or created and each instance of use, acceptance, or creation; or

*

Subsequent Offenses. Not less than $2,000 and not more than $5,000 for each fraudulent document used, accepted, or created and each instance of use, acceptance, or creation.

But its up to the government to prove that they fraudulently used the I-9.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So its not 'technically' criminal from the employees point of view.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

For the sake of the argument, let's just say that fraudulently establishing work eligibility in and of itself is not a criminal offense. Let's say that those that can legitimately demonstrate that they have not committed ID theft and paid all taxes due would be made eligible for an individual review of the merits of their case to remain in this country after paying a fine and fees and apply from outside the US, I might just jump on board. But that is not what the President and the Senate is looking to do. They want to roll out an amnesty that will include ID thieves, fugitives and all other kinds of undesirables. It's a blanket amnesty and that is jst a very bad idea.

[Caladan 19]

And if the employer doesn't ask for the I-9, which many don't, especially in the day laborer/short contract worker end of things, the employee hasn't had to present anything false. (Do you fill out an I-9 for the teenager who mows your lawn? Think he pays taxes?)