Why the unions are going downhill

[GaryC 7]

Erm, how so? You have already said there are the lazy union guys and union guys with the strong work ethic, both species are being laid off because the company has outsourced for I would imagine a variety of reasons so...logically, it's not the fact that they are members of a union that makes the ones that are lazy, lazy, nor is that laziness per se the reason why their jobs are on the line.

Or are you suggesting that the unions go out of their way to protect the lazy guys because the unions see that as a reasonable union policy??? Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense.

Yes, there are some very hard union workers but because of the lazy ones all are paying the price. Let me give you and Steven an example. I witnessed this with my own eyes and it isn't an isolated instance. The machines require regular prevenitive maintenance. There is a scedule that must be followed. There was a union worker that was assigned a set of PM's on a particular day. He just signed onto the ticket, waited half the shift and then signed them off as done without even going to the machine. Cat fired the guy since this wasn't the first time this happend. The shop steward went to the boss's and threatend a walk-out if they didn't let him back WITH PAY! This happens all the time. The union protects the lazy at the expense of the hard workers. Cat finally got enough of this BS and hired my company to do the maintenance.

[Peikko 1,575]

This maybe the reason you have been given, but honestly outsourcing isn't done simply because a union if full of 'lazy' workers. However, it's reasonable for the host company to wish to subfuscate their reasons and try to make the outsourcing workers feel ok about taking the jobs of the original workers by such means, and it's obviously working, for now.

[Oath 0]

As far as I'm concerned Unions simply don't work, people are too damned lazy and want to be paid the maximum for as little as possible, I understand that when working under pressure that there may be a need to cut corners but in my own opinion when you cut corners and cover it you risk peoples lives.

far as outsourcing goes, if companies can get cheaper labour then they will, no matter what country they are from.

Edited May 10, 2007 by Oath

[one...two...tree 2,762]

There was a union worker that was assigned a set of PM's on a particular day. He just signed onto the ticket, waited half the shift and then signed them off as done without even going to the machine. Cat fired the guy since this wasn't the first time this happend. The shop steward went to the boss's and threatend a walk-out if they didn't let him back WITH PAY! This happens all the time. The union protects the lazy at the expense of the hard workers.

I'm going to have to call you out on this one, Gary. A union cannot simply decide to do a 'walk-out' over the firing of a worker, much less could a union steward 'threaten' anyone (extortion)! The days of Jimmy Hoffa are long gone. My hunch is that whatever is stated in the contract regarding the firing of an employee must follow a certain protocol, however, these contracts are negotiated, agreed upon and then ratified by the companies! If that employee was not properly disciplined, then he has legal recourse. That's what a union is all about, Gary. It gives representation of the workers through solidarity to ensure they are treated fairly.

[GaryC 7]

This maybe the reason you have been given, but honestly outsourcing isn't done simply because a union if full of 'lazy' workers. However, it's reasonable for the host company to wish to subfuscate their reasons and try to make the outsourcing workers feel ok about taking the jobs of the original workers by such means, and it's obviously working, for now.

They outsourced the maintenance because the machine downtime was so bad. Whenever they tried to rectify the situation they ran into the union protecting it's own. I can tell you from personal experience that the condition of these machines is so bad due to poor maintanance that it will take us years to straigten it out. Some machines will have to be rebuilt because it has been let go for so long. It's not just at Cat. I have been doing factory maitnanence for 12 years now and every union shop I go into is the same story. The lazy among the union workers drag down the hard working ones and the whole business suffers. It's not just my opinion but a direct and personal observation. On the other hand the non-union shops that I have gone into have much better maintanence on their machines. You tell me what the reason is. It's human nature. If you know you can do less and still keep your job then some will do less. Job security is a good thing but without some responsability put onto the workers the lazy among us will ruin it for everyone.

[Oath 0]

This maybe the reason you have been given, but honestly outsourcing isn't done simply because a union if full of 'lazy' workers. However, it's reasonable for the host company to wish to subfuscate their reasons and try to make the outsourcing workers feel ok about taking the jobs of the original workers by such means, and it's obviously working, for now.

They outsourced the maintenance because the machine downtime was so bad. Whenever they tried to rectify the situation they ran into the union protecting it's own. I can tell you from personal experience that the condition of these machines is so bad due to poor maintanance that it will take us years to straigten it out. Some machines will have to be rebuilt because it has been let go for so long. It's not just at Cat. I have been doing factory maitnanence for 12 years now and every union shop I go into is the same story. The lazy among the union workers drag down the hard working ones and the whole business suffers. It's not just my opinion but a direct and personal observation. On the other hand the non-union shops that I have gone into have much better maintanence on their machines. You tell me what the reason is. It's human nature. If you know you can do less and still keep your job then some will do less. Job security is a good thing but without some responsability put onto the workers the lazy among us will ruin it for everyone.

Unions in the United Kingdom can and have walked out over such issues, as long as they vote on such matters, I cannot speak for US unions (or any other country).

[GaryC 7]

There was a union worker that was assigned a set of PM's on a particular day. He just signed onto the ticket, waited half the shift and then signed them off as done without even going to the machine. Cat fired the guy since this wasn't the first time this happend. The shop steward went to the boss's and threatend a walk-out if they didn't let him back WITH PAY! This happens all the time. The union protects the lazy at the expense of the hard workers.

I'm going to have to call you out on this one, Gary. A union cannot simply decide to do a 'walk-out' over the firing of a worker, much less could a union steward 'threaten' anyone (extortion)! The days of Jimmy Hoffa are long gone. My hunch is that whatever is stated in the contract regarding the firing of an employee must follow a certain protocol, however, these contracts are negotiated, agreed upon and then ratified by the companies! If that employee was not properly disciplined, then he has legal recourse. That's what a union is all about, Gary. It gives representation of the workers through solidarity to ensure they are treated fairly.

Don't you believe it! I saw this with my own eyes. It may have not been a sanctioned walk out but they would have shut the place down none the same. What you believe and reality are two very different things. Until you work in a factory enviroment and see it for yourself you just can't know. This is my life and my profession. I do know what I am talking about. You may not want to hear it but that doesn't make it not so.

[Nikita2Charles 32]

I was a member of IBEW back in the early 90's. In all aspect of life you will find good and bad. Union has its benefit at the same time there are a lot of flaws, you have all the Union Jokes, what do you call it when 3 Guys watching and 1 person doing the work=Union. But there was no such things where I worked that, those guys are very experienced and know the trade like the back of their hands. Try to give the same work to a contractor it would take them twice as long to do the work.

Let's say the workers are building something incorrectly, It falls into management responsibility to provide the workers with the correct tools, the training necessary to do the work, QUALITY IS EVERYBODY"S RESPONSIBILITY, I left mostly because of all the politics involved, as a young college graduate I was teaching those older fellas about the new Fiber optics technology, so I met a lot of resistance to the point it was not confortable to work there. As a newcomer everything was based on Seniority, the most senior lineman has to be contacted 1st for a job then go down the line. The problem: with the new system and new technology as a newbie, i had to be there for all of those major works, and the others came straight fom management, as such they didn't like it, some thought I was a management guy. Even with Union, MANAGEMENT are the one making the calls, The union rep can protest, and at the same time if a situation comes out where it's not safe, IT"S THE UNION REP responsibility to make amend, The union can even contact OSHA(Occupational safety Hazard) anonymously if they feel there's a situation mfg is not paying attention to. There are other aspects of it also that are nice, you can get free training, experience, benefits.

Edited May 10, 2007 by Nikita2Charles

[misfitsbalzac 0]

I was directly affected by a company outsourcing. For 13 years I ran a 2200 degree tunnel kiln for the Pfaltzgraff company. About 2 years ago they decided to send all the work overseas. But,anyone who owns Pfaltzgraff products can see the lack of the quality in the new pieces. From what I hear,alot of people stopped buying the product. Hershey candy is currently doing the same thing,outsourcing their candy making jobs. Many people here are refusing to ever go to the Hersheypark theme park again because of this. Corporate greed will be the end of the middle class.

[Peikko 1,575]

While it is true that there are 'lazy' people, and people with low work ethics, the raison d'etre of a union is not to 'enable' laziness.

It may be true that there are unions that are being run badly, by corrupt shop stewards and the like. No one is suggesting that unions, as with any organisation, are not susceptible to 'power struggles' and abuses of power.

However, unions were created to facilitate the workers in their unequal battle to gain fair wages/conditions for the work they do. Prior to having unions, workers were abused and underpaid.

Factories and businesses want to get the maximum return on any investment. When you are dealing with jobs that are capable of being performed by any number of people, not highly skilled, or not 'unique' in some way, the business has the upper hand. They can and will source the cheapest to maximise profits. When the business you work for can 'outsource' to a cheaper company, they will certainly do so. They will care little how safe or 'pretty' the repairs are, so long as they can maximise their output.

Unions have only ever tried to give workers some bargaining power to make their lives tenable. If all unions are 'phased' out then there will be little to no reason why business will listen to the humble shop floor worker anymore and the cycle of abuse will start again. Greed it would seem, like laziness, is also human nature.

[GaryC 7]

I am not saying the companies are faultless and the unions are always the bad guys. I am not anti-union. But I do think the companies should have the final say-so over who stays and who goes. It is their company after all. Look at it this way. Our company charges more for maintenance than they were paying their own people. Why do they do this? Because we do a better job at keeping the machines running. Why is that? Because we are an at-will company and anyone that isn't giving it 100% can be fired at any time. As some here point out the companies are in it for the money. This shows that because of the unions and their "protect the lazy" ways is costing their own jobs. If the unions took a realistic look at themselves and allowed the ones that are not putting out their best to be let go they would be much stronger because of it. Like I said, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

[Oath 0]

While it is true that there are 'lazy' people, and people with low work ethics, the raison d'etre of a union is not to 'enable' laziness.

It may be true that there are unions that are being run badly, by corrupt shop stewards and the like. No one is suggesting that unions, as with any organisation, are not susceptible to 'power struggles' and abuses of power.

However, unions were created to facilitate the workers in their unequal battle to gain fair wages/conditions for the work they do. Prior to having unions, workers were abused and underpaid.

Factories and businesses want to get the maximum return on any investment. When you are dealing with jobs that are capable of being performed by any number of people, not highly skilled, or not 'unique' in some way, the business has the upper hand. They can and will source the cheapest to maximise profits. When the business you work for can 'outsource' to a cheaper company, they will certainly do so. They will care little how safe or 'pretty' the repairs are, so long as they can maximise their output.

Unions have only ever tried to give workers some bargaining power to make their lives tenable. If all unions are 'phased' out then there will be little to no reason why business will listen to the humble shop floor worker anymore and the cycle of abuse will start again. Greed it would seem, like laziness, is also human nature.

While the goals of unions may be noble, they rarely attain those goals, and as has been stated many times, lull people into a false sense of security which in turn breeds laziness.

[Nikita2Charles 32]

I experience the same thing also, more and more of the sillicon valley High tech Jobs are heading overseas to Singapore. 1st you thought it was because of cheap labor, not necessarily but it's part of it. Corporate Greed has goten to a point where everything goes for a buck, now everybody is recognized by an employer ID number, so you are just a number in that Chess Game as such you are dispensable, The major mistake management makes at time, They lost touch with the complexity of the work the engineers are doing, as such they only see the money, at time you get what you paid for.

We had local vendors, then now you outsourced the parts to some asian countries with less quality, what we faced are product that are supposed to be stainless steel are coming in rusted, painted, Very poor quality. In the short term you might Increase your Gross Margin but in the long term you might lose the company reputation and edge.

An example

The work culture is different, They brought a few engineers here for training, you have to explain every single details to them, I coudln't beleive my ear one time this engineer came to me and asking WHAT SHOULD I WRITE? So i had to brush him off, you better start troubleshooting and find out yourself.

There's a problem with a part, I create an ECO(Engineering Change Order) to correct the problem, They hire an engineer in Singapore with less qualification, all he has to do is take a copy of MY ECO and transmit it in Singapore to stay in Sync so I do all the dirty work and This guy over there is taking the credit. So I started to make sure I put my signature all over the document just to piss them off. After being here for 10 years, It's the 1st time i started to look around for another Job, and as soon as something better comes around, I AM OUT. Nothing bring down the moral so low as to train your replacement. But so far these guys don't know Jet, but they are going to be taking charge a couple of years from now, and we should be the one training them, hmm major miscalculation, I am sure they have a backup plan. But as it stands they will lose most of the engineering crew.

I was directly affected by a company outsourcing. For 13 years I ran a 2200 degree tunnel kiln for the Pfaltzgraff company. About 2 years ago they decided to send all the work overseas. But,anyone who owns Pfaltzgraff products can see the lack of the quality in the new pieces. From what I hear,alot of people stopped buying the product. Hershey candy is currently doing the same thing,outsourcing their candy making jobs. Many people here are refusing to ever go to the Hersheypark theme park again because of this. Corporate greed will be the end of the middle class.

Edited May 10, 2007 by Nikita2Charles

[Nancy2015 2]

Ah, our tax dollars at work...

Are unions supported by tax dollars?

[Peikko 1,575]

I must be working in the wrong businesses, I have never seen anyone lulled into a false sense of security by the 'might' of unions to assist laziness en masse.

I have worked with lazy individuals in non union settings. That they survive seems to be a matter of personality more than any other criteria.