What is wrong with the Egyptian gov't.???!!!!!

[doodlebug 3]

I think this comment in the article is not-so-thinly veiled bullshi!t. "tend toward volitility, radicalism and anger"??? ####### is that? If economically frustrated arab men were all radical, there would be millions more radicals than there are. Half of Morocco would be radical, instead of just a few drug addicts making home made bombs.

There are major economic problems in most parts of the world. Radical religionists are like a cult, the way they recruit and keep their brethren. The comment in this article is just more western blame-gaming rather than taking responsibility for its contribution to this mess.

And I really don't see how any of this has to do with mentally ill Cho.

Why must you jump down everyone's throat lately? What's the deal?

I haven't posted for weeks until yesterday but nice try. You want to continue the racist ####### that's portrayed in that article, then go for it, but I can't stand it. I also can't stand any insinuation that marriage or sex leads to happiness over radicalism. And Cho was mentally ill, so getting some pus!y certainly wasn't going to change that, and the implication that it would is ridiculous.

I don't get the "nice try" bit. Most of your recent posts have been downright rude. Just curious why is all.

[peezey 0]

I think this comment in the article is not-so-thinly veiled bullshi!t. "tend toward volitility, radicalism and anger"??? ####### is that? If economically frustrated arab men were all radical, there would be millions more radicals than there are. Half of Morocco would be radical, instead of just a few drug addicts making home made bombs.

There are major economic problems in most parts of the world. Radical religionists are like a cult, the way they recruit and keep their brethren. The comment in this article is just more western blame-gaming rather than taking responsibility for its contribution to this mess.

And I really don't see how any of this has to do with mentally ill Cho.

Why must you jump down everyone's throat lately? What's the deal?

I haven't posted for weeks until yesterday but nice try. You want to continue the racist ####### that's portrayed in that article, then go for it, but I can't stand it. I also can't stand any insinuation that marriage or sex leads to happiness over radicalism. And Cho was mentally ill, so getting some pus!y certainly wasn't going to change that, and the implication that it would is ridiculous.

I don't get the "nice try" bit. Most of your recent posts have been downright rude. Just curious why is all.

You call it rude, I call it sick of the b.s.

[deemabrouk 0]

I think this comment in the article is not-so-thinly veiled bullshi!t. "tend toward volitility, radicalism and anger"??? ####### is that? If economically frustrated arab men were all radical, there would be millions more radicals than there are. Half of Morocco would be radical, instead of just a few drug addicts making home made bombs.

There are major economic problems in most parts of the world. Radical religionists are like a cult, the way they recruit and keep their brethren. The comment in this article is just more western blame-gaming rather than taking responsibility for its contribution to this mess.

And I really don't see how any of this has to do with mentally ill Cho.

Why must you jump down everyone's throat lately? What's the deal?

I haven't posted for weeks until yesterday but nice try. You want to continue the racist ####### that's portrayed in that article, then go for it, but I can't stand it. I also can't stand any insinuation that marriage or sex leads to happiness over radicalism. And Cho was mentally ill, so getting some pus!y certainly wasn't going to change that, and the implication that it would is ridiculous.

I don't get the "nice try" bit. Most of your recent posts have been downright rude. Just curious why is all.

You call it rude, I call it sick of the b.s.

What B.S ??? You are posting on a VISA journey website.. Arent these all Valid questions and concerns for people dealing with Visa's.. and consulars.. embassies??? granted this topic has taken a slight turn.. But still..

[ya falaha! 0]

Peezey can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the BS she's referring to is the cheering on of ppl even if the relationship/situation isn't kosher. What I mean is, ppl skirting around the fact that some of the relationships on VJ are "odd". It's very well known that, generally speaking, Mid Eastern men do not marry women 15, 20, 25 yrs older than themselves. Comparing that with older men who marry Filipinas is ridiculous. Older men marrying younger women in that and most other societies in the world is much more acceptable for many reasons. A major reason being that an older man can still get his younger wife pregnant but an older wife most likely cannot provide her younger husband with children. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, children are very important in Mid East societies. Or that knowing someone for 4 mos. is a sufficient amount of time to decide whether or not you want to spend the rest of your life with someone. Or that lack of common language and having to communicate with gestures is something "normal". Pretending that these situations won't present a problem at the consular (or even USCIS) level is BS.

Edited April 23, 2007 by moody

[peezey 0]

That about sums it up. I was also calling the assertion that lack of marriage choices creates radicals as total BS.

[ya falaha! 0]

Yep, that too.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

The following comment is certainly not aimed at anyone here personally. But.... it has to be said.

In American culture, it is rather unusual to meet a person and then within the first few months of that relationship, decide to get married. In fact, most Americans tend to see serious talk about marriage during the early stages of a relationship as a major warning sign that something wasn't quite right in their partner's thinking, and would run run RUN away as fast as they could. What would you think if your sister met a guy here in the U.S. and then 2 months later she is already talking marriage ? You would say, "Slow down, sis -- it's too fast."

I don't understand why similar "moving-too-fast" behavior from a foreign man (or woman) would be considered as somehow more sincere. If you're an American women under 70 who has traveled the Middle East, you know that marriage proposals are a dime a dozen. You get them from taxi drivers, waiters, hotel workers, anyone. A lot of people are desperate to get out of there, and many will seek any oppportunity to do so. Walk into any Middle Eastern internet cafe after dark, and you will see -- it's full of young (and not so young) men, intently trolling websites and chat rooms, looking for Western women. Some of them already have a fish on the line, or several, and they work those lines every single day. Many of the younger men are unemployed, and have nothing but time on their hands. They may be working several women at once, and they are willing to marry whichever one shows up first, as long as there's a green card at the end of the rainbow. Some are quite open with their families and friends about their plan to divorce this woman as soon as they possibly can.

If you get a marriage proposal after a few days or a few weeks or even a month or two of chatting to someone on the internet, you should be smart enough to realize it's not YOU that he's fallen for. In the case of desperately poor men from countries with little or no opportunity, the attraction is either your money or your ability to get him a visa.

I am certainly not saying that everyone who meets on the internet is being scammed. But if things are moving faster than fast, there's a reason and it's probably not good.

[ya falaha! 0]

And no amount of chat records with "I love you" and "I can't live without you" alone will convince a CO that the relationship is legit.

[doodlebug 3]

I agree that there are definitely some scam marriages out there. If I personally thought anyone here was in that situation though I would rather pm them and gently tell them how their situation "may" seem not too legit and I'd offer myself as a shoulder to lean on, etc. I would not however diss them rudely in public. That's just distasteful in my opinion and is a BIG part of the reason so many here have left this place. You get more flies with honey than vinegar, as my nana used to tell me. Maybe some on here just come off as super harsh because it's the net and you can't see their facial expressions, etc. etc., but I think most of us have had enough human to human interaction in social situations that we know how our words will come off to some.

That being said, I do think there are *some* legit marriages out there where the proposal was within months of knowing each other, especially if the couple is both muslim. I mean technically muslims aren't even supposed to hold hands or be in the same room without another person there and a long engagement is usually not that common. I think as someone said here (sorry i forget if it was mybackpages or not) it all depends on the context of the situation. If someone was just chattin' on yahoo with no history with the person and whammo is engaged within a month or two obviously that's gonna come off as suspicious to the CO but if the couple were on a muslim matrimonial site where obviously they are there for that purpose and they're not allowed to be alone until their married, then I would only assume the CO would take that into consideration. Isn't there even a few hardship cases that have been won in K-1 petitions for not even meeting before the marriage takes place because of religious reasons?

Edited April 23, 2007 by doodlebug

[mybackpages 0]

Young men stranded between tradition and modernity tend toward volatility, radicalism and anger.

Interesting article. The other day a friend of ours was over and we were talking about the VA Tech shooting, and he said that Cho, not unlike the suicide bombers of the world, just needed to get a girlfriend. I sort of dismissed the comment as being a joke, but after reading this article, I think he may be on to something.

I don't see the connection or the relevance. Mentally ill people now just need a girlfriend and suddenly they will be well? And Egyptians that can't marry because of economics are going to become mass murderers?

I was not suggesting that mentally ill people just need to get girlfriends, problem solved, that's obviously ridiculous. And no, I also didn't mean to imply that all unmarried Egyptian men are headed down the road to mass murder, equally ridiculous.

However, I do not think that it is entirely irrelevant.

My comment was in reference to this part of the article.

Young men stranded between tradition and modernity tend toward volatility, radicalism and anger. They cannot afford to marry, yet religion and social custom bar sex outside marriage. They are expected to care for aging family members, yet can scarcely take care of themselves. Financial independence and marriage remain the mark of manhood and social standing, yet it is increasingly difficult to attain. In a part of the world where 60 percent of the population is under 25, this is a social time bomb.

I think this comment in the article is not-so-thinly veiled bullshi!t. "tend toward volitility, radicalism and anger"??? ####### is that? If economically frustrated arab men were all radical, there would be millions more radicals than there are. Half of Morocco would be radical, instead of just a few drug addicts making home made bombs.

There are major economic problems in most parts of the world. Radical religionists are like a cult, the way they recruit and keep their brethren. The comment in this article is just more western blame-gaming rather than taking responsibility for its contribution to this mess.

And I really don't see how any of this has to do with mentally ill Cho.

This is what I took from the quote in the article. When there is limited economic opportunity, it can contribute to volitity, radicalism and anger. The difference is that I do not equate that with men running off and joining Islamic extremists. Radicalism is not a bad thing in and of itself. Some of the best solutions to serious problems are radical in nature. That is they go far beyond the status quo.

Look at the African struggle against colonialism after WWII. Opprression, discrimination, failing economies led many young men and women to join radical organizations to fight against what they perceived to be the cause of their nation's troubles. There was anger in these societies and IMO rightly so. But being angry and having a radical solution did not mean picking up arms always. Often it meant nationalization of the nation's resources, supporting political parties that wanted radical change etc.

I think Jenn's friend may have meant that when there is stability in our lives, when we are connected to our communities through family relationships, when we feel normal and accepted in our surroundings, then the chances that we behave radically or violently or any other social unaccepted way will decrease.

Most people who live in a society where they are marginalized politically, economically etc, do nothing but continue to exist as best they can day to day. This does not negate the fact that there will be some who seek to be activist and change their lives and the future of their country.

i wish i weren;t so tired tonight and could express this more eloquently. I am sure as soon as I hit post reply I will want to change and add to it.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I agree, Doodle, that it's not very nice to "diss" someone in public. That's what I wanted to make it clear that my comment is not directed to anyone here personally. I don't know every detail of everyone's history with their SO (nor do I go looking for it), and I am not here to pass judgment on anyone personally. Nor would I bother with PMing a warning to someone. I mean, unless they are a family member or a close friend, who else is really going to listen to a warning from someone they only know from the net ?

But the consulate IS the one who judges validity of relationship for visa purposes, and what I posted is common knowledge to consulates. This is the very real background against which one must "prove" their case. It's best to face it.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I agree that there are definitely some scam marriages out there. If I personally thought anyone here was in that situation though I would rather pm them and gently tell them how their situation "may" seem not too legit and I'd offer myself as a shoulder to lean on, etc. I would not however diss them rudely in public. That's just distasteful in my opinion and is a BIG part of the reason so many here have left this place. You get more flies with honey than vinegar, as my nana used to tell me. Maybe some on here just come off as super harsh because it's the net and you can't see their facial expressions, etc. etc., but I think most of us have had enough human to human interaction in social situations that we know how our words will come off to some.

That being said, I do think there are *some* legit marriages out there where the proposal was within months of knowing each other, especially if the couple is both muslim. I mean technically muslims aren't even supposed to hold hands or be in the same room without another person there and a long engagement is usually not that common. I think as someone said here (sorry i forget if it was mybackpages or not) it all depends on the context of the situation. If someone was just chattin' on yahoo with no history with the person and whammo is engaged within a month or two obviously that's gonna come off as suspicious to the CO but if the couple were on a muslim matrimonial site where obviously they are there for that purpose and they're not allowed to be alone until their married, then I would only assume the CO would take that into consideration. Isn't there even a few hardship cases that have been won in K-1 petitions for not even meeting before the marriage takes place because of religious reasons?

I agree Doodle bug completely. I think some even get islamically married and then file a K1 because there is no legally binding marriage so they can engage in relations because in some countries you cannot even stay together because of the family or societal pressures. An islamic marriage with nothing in writing should not disqualify you from being able to do the K 1 because thre is nothing in writing to be able to file a k3. I think backpages made some very vaild points. And with the scrutiny of K3 visas and them getting turned down so much, I feel its almost safer to do a k1 if you love each other and are not yet married rather than jump into a marriage just because you feel that a k3 is more solid and going to be approved. All you have to do is look on here at all the turned down I130s and k3s and people seperated for years and years

I have a friends personally who did the fiancee visa 2 years ago, got turned down then went last year to get married to the guy. She had known him 7 years ( YES 7 years) and still got turned down in the interview process. Then she went and married him last year and its been a year and still no approval. She is 15 years older than her Algerian husband and did everything the right way and has plenty of evidence and to this day, she has no approval. She had no waivers. He has no criminal record. She has called congress man after congress man and to this minute still has no approval and has been fighting for almost 3 years to get him here. Whatever the case is.. whatever the situation is,,, its a mess all around and very sad. I am sure she has books of evidence and emails and calls and has been over there and over there several times. Its not seeming to matter. Which is why I am with as much as I love my guy,,, going with the k1 because I do not want to live the hell that these girls are living. I had and have the chance to do a k3 as I travel over there and have everything I need to get legally married 1 2 3.. I just dont want to be ensnared in a no win situation. If they will say no to a k1 ... a k3 no is not far behind.. Just my opinion

[mybackpages 0]

The problem with pming is that for new Vjers who come along, they only see part of the picture. Many people read here but never post. I strongly feel they need to hear different views. I will agree honey is better than vinegar, but not everyone has the same style. Better to remind people to take the opinions at face value and not personal attacks. Yes some people have left because they dislike the way things are discussed. Others have left- and many of these were valuable contributors for immigration information, because so many here refuse to engage in a open debate and would rather engage in behavior that is not productive and potentially harmful to women.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

The problem with pming is that for new Vjers who come along, they only see part of the picture. Many people read here but never post. I strongly feel they need to hear different views. I will agree honey is better than vinegar, but not everyone has the same style. Better to remind people to take the opinions at face value and not personal attacks. Yes some people have left because they dislike the way things are discussed. Others have left- and many of these were valuable contributors for immigration information, because so many here refuse to engage in a open debate and would rather engage in behavior that is not productive and potentially harmful to women.

Right on

[doodlebug 3]

Ok well pm or not I still think it's all in the delivery though. If I were talked to like some were on this thread I would have logged off and never turned back. That wouldn't have helped me much at all. That's all I'm saying. Some need the hardliner approach I guess but I know a lot who get turned off by that and need things said a wee bit more gently. I think there are many other ways to get the point across but to each his/her own I guess.