We're not a 'post-racial' society. We're the 'innocent until proven racist' society

[LibCampFireClub 635]

You see the report button at the bottom of the page? That's the appropriate response here and the only reaction you're going to get.

Take it elsewhere.

I know, I know. You get upset when others disagree with you. As far as I'm concerned, you're still welcome to post whatever you like and even stop playing when things don't go your way. There are a lot of people who just don't agree with you as you substantiate that it's pointless in trying to discuss. No need to be so angry. I still support your right to voice your opinion. That's a fundamental right in the USA you see.

Edited August 19, 2014 by ExExpat

[Karee 4,189]

It has been said on here in the past that the election of the first black president is proof that racism is in the past. However, perhaps consider that there continues to be a debate as to whether the president is a genuine American citizen and several allegations that not only is he not a USC but is in fact a secret Muslim. At least one poster on VJ regularly refers to Obama as 'The Kenyan'. Why is that tolerated as a legitimate conversation piece? Do you agree with it?

He is a secret Muslim born in Kenya. Everyone knows that. I assume you posted the article in the OP to get laughs, because it truly is a joke.

Another example of a black person blaming the ills of the minority community on racism instead of looking within. That stance will ensure that things continue on as they have been.

[Karee 4,189]

The point I took from the commentary is that racism has become something of a taboo subject - that people tend to tune out when there is an allegation of racism. Obviously there are a number of reasons for this - knee jerk allegations for one, but I would argue its also because of the pervasive nature of racism.

I think people tune it out because they're tired of hearing it blamed for every issue in the black community. This shooting is a perfect example. As far as I can see so far the only racial component to this shooting is the cop was white, and the guy that got shot and killed was black. That's it. The thing in Florida was another one. As far as I can tell there's been nothing racial proven in either case.

[Karee 4,189]

What about the cop who will be afraid to pull the trigger when his life is in danger because he doesn't want to be labelled a racist? When he ends up dead, who will march for him?

[DavenRoxy 1,073]

And yet, people still hold on to the belief that we live in a color-blind system in which nobody is a racist, despite such obvious examples of persistent racism. The “post-racial” society is an intellectual refuge for white Americans, who largely benefit from racism even when they’re unwilling or unable to admit it. We certainly shouldn’t keep denying that racism exists, but white America needs to wake up and recognize just how complicit it has become in a system constantly perpetuating false notions of equality.

I'm curious how whites benefit from racism?

Edited August 19, 2014 by DavenRoxy

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

He is a secret Muslim born in Kenya. Everyone knows that. I assume you posted the article in the OP to get laughs, because it truly is a joke.

Another example of a black person blaming the ills of the minority community on racism instead of looking within. That stance will ensure that things continue on as they have been.

I take the writer's OP at face value - I don't agree with it 100% and it skips over some key points - including what you said above. However, what you wrote above is as much a simplification as the one you are accusing the author of.

Racism is a highly charged word and mentioning it is often counterproductive to a rational conversation - it tends to irritate some people to the point that they say arguably prejudiced things, which . Similarly, those people do believe that talking about racism is a device of shutting down debate. Like everything, there is some truth to this - but it shouldn't be assumed (as some posters appear to be doing in this thread).

Racism certainly exists - I don't think that's in any doubt, but often we are not talking about people acting on racial prejudices as much as a refusal to acknowledge racial inequalities in society and how they came to be. That is arguably a form of racism in itself, but one born of ignorance rather than conscious prejudice.

I referred to the comment at the bottom of the article, and am posting it here (again) because I think it raises some key arguments which don't tend to feature in discussions on these forums.

Firstly, that the perspective of many white people is limited for not having had the experience of being poor and black in the USA. If you haven't lived in poverty for generations, along with the associated social problems that go along with that (single parent families, domestic violence, substance abuse, gangs etc.) you simply can't put yourself in a place where you can understand the mindset of people who have.

Secondly, that the ever widening gap between rich and poor is exacerbated firstly by poor educational outcomes but also by the lack of resources among the poor (many of whom happen to be black) to pursue higher education. This is essentially a race/class divide.

Thirdly, that there is no singular 'black experience' and many sub-groups (i.e. middle class) blacks are not part of this race/class divide because they had access to education earlier, without having to deal with the same degree of racial prejudice that was entrenched in government, and public institutions (in some parts of the USA), as recently as the late 1960s.

What we are talking about is an underclass of blacks who get poorer and more angry about it with every generation, while everyone else yammers on about personal responsibility and how hard work can get you out of a bad spot. It's a bit cheap really.

We can't have an honest conversation about race without giving primacy of place to history and class as it affected attitudes toward race. Unless we talk about how the contemporary atmosphere of violence developed directly from the atmosphere of violence that blacks were continually subjected to by the agents of the state we can't comprehend it. Likewise we can't understand the resentment of having been left behind among poor blacks without comprehending how capitalism with its strong emphasis on acquisition of private property as the only avenue for the acquisition of social status divided middle class and poor blacks, middle class and poor whites and sowed jealousy and incomprehension all around in a strategy of divide and conquer by the elite, played out largely in the urban job market and the payment based education system that determines your position in it.

There is no reasonable solution to racism in our society without addressing class. Families pass their money from generation to generation and over time they develop privileged positions using inherited wealth. Education is purchased with money. Small businesses are started by the educated with money. Profitable small businesses expand. Second generation college students go on to garner PHDs. Wealthy families enter into politics. Etc. This trajectory is identical for all families in a capitalist society regardless of race. Most african-americans were not paid for their wages or allowed to even own property for centuries. This single fact explains most of the reason for their largely fixed position within the lower class.

But their was another disadvantage. Families in the slave system were broken up, not even allowed to exist and all individuals within the system were subjected to organized violence and torture. After the system was outlawed the violence and discrimination continued in jim crow laws and the lynchings used to enforce them.

Mass migration to northern cities to escape this terror resulted in mixed results. Unfortunately this huge body of untrained labor started pouring into Detroit, New York, Chicago after the Jews Italians and Irish, among others had come a few decades earlier in mass and so racism became an element of job competition in an economy that was contracting across the manufacturing sector for the rest of the 20th century.

Class conflict isn't just the poor vs the rich - its the poor vs the poorer, but socialism doesn't like to address that topic because its ugly on all sides. Anti-racism campaigns don't like to address it either. The miracle is that despite these enormous historical disadvantages many african american families once they gained access to even the minimum of education began to rise up against the odds. There were many sub-groups within the black population. Never mind the fact that the evolving ideology of the equal rights movement united all people's of african descent in a just cause, look closer and you see that in the north there were many families who were descended from free blacks who got access to education earlier and were not subject to the terror of jim crow and developed into a small middle class of professionals ie a different social class, than the blacks arriving from the south and later the carribbean.

The immigrant system in the US was always a class system that favored those who arrived earlier over those who arrived later. The black community was no exception and as the economy of northern cities contracted and flatlined during mid century there was black flight to the suburbs by the black middle class just as there was with whites. Though in the suburban environment class segregation and race segregation went hand in hand. The poor from all groups were left behind.

Racism as it is currently understood came about in this environment That the suburbs were designed to seperate the middle class from the discomfort of living adjacent to the poor was never closely examined, though it shaped relations among different groups of american blacks as well as whites.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Hail Ming!

[JohnR! 5,495]

If English were my first language, I'd say that imho looking objectively and realizing racism is all around would demonstrate one's racism reflected on an entire society; one's own flaws and shortcomings. As a result some either go in denial or simply develop an irrational fear of all those who are different - we have several examples of both in this forum.

I remember a line in a movie once that went something like '...the question is not whether we're racist. The questions is what we're going to do about it...' and that is where part of the issue is. The other part is that many can't differentiate between stereotypes and archetypes, and they assume, incorrectly so, that their perception of others is in fact representative of the truth. They fail to see that that the poor black kid they call 'thug' is not the fulfillment of the racist prophecies their parents recited to them, so much as they are the result of the perpetuation of racist stereotypes, that in turn fuel phobias and more racism, in a never ending cycle. True, there are 'thugs' that fit the stereotype, but that is not exclusive of any one particular race.

In a roundabout way, putting an end to these phobias and the ignorance form which they derive could be accomplished by embracing racism in a positive manner - read, talk and ask the questions. Find out how people with other skin tones - and why not accents, religions or any other perceivable determinant differences or particularities - actually 'differ' from oneself. Open the dialogue and do it honestly. The truth can indeed set one free. Question everything you were told.

And yet, people still hold on to the belief that we live in a color-blind system in which nobody is a racist, despite such obvious examples of persistent racism. The “post-racial” society is an intellectual refuge for white Americans, who largely benefit from racism even when they’re unwilling or unable to admit it. We certainly shouldn’t keep denying that racism exists, but white America needs to wake up and recognize just how complicit it has become in a system constantly perpetuating false notions of equality.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I'm curious how whites benefit from racism?

I can't speak for the author - but again if you look at the position many black Americans occupy in society - living in poverty, broken families, life outcomes that end in jail (or an early grave) there are only two conclusions that can be reached.

One of those conclusions is racist.

The other is that these racial/class inequalities exist as a legacy of the racist policies of America's past.

[JohnR! 5,495]

I'm curious how whites benefit from racism?

I'd say that having a 150-year socio-ecoomic head start was an advantage from which many of us still benefit today.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If English were my first language, I'd say that imho looking objectively and realizing racism is all around would demonstrate one's racism reflected on an entire society; one's own flaws and shortcomings. As a result some either go in denial or simply develop an irrational fear of all those who are different - we have several examples of both in this forum.

I remember a line in a movie once that went something like '...the question is not whether we're racist. The questions is what we're going to do about it...' and that is where part of the issue is. The other part is that many can't differentiate between stereotypes and archetypes, and they assume, incorrectly so, that their perception of others is in fact representative of the truth. They fail to see that that the poor black kid they call 'thug' is not the fulfillment of the racist prophecies their parents recited to them, so much as they are the result of the perpetuation of racist stereotypes, that in turn fuel phobias and more racism, in a never ending cycle. True, there are 'thugs' that fit the stereotype, but that is not exclusive of any one particular race.

In a roundabout way, putting an end to these phobias and the ignorance form which they derive could be accomplished by embracing racism in a positive manner - read, talk and ask the questions. Find out how people with other skin tones - and why not accents, religions or any other perceivable determinant differences or particularities - actually 'differ' from oneself. Open the dialogue and do it honestly. The truth can indeed set one free. Question everything you were told.

Some people like to demand personal responsibility from others while not taking any responsibility themselves

Take political families - like the Bush's, Kennedy's etc. You have these large political/industrial dynasties going back several generations because those families benefitted from the American Dream at a time when it wasn't possible for a lot of black people to rise above their beginnings.

Several generations later, even the middle class are beneficiaries of this point of view (i.e. beneficiaries of an unfair system) and can't comprehend the idea that a whole underclass of people being 'left behind' might be to do with a bit more than laziness.

This explains it pretty succinctly:

Edited August 19, 2014 by Hail Ming!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I'd say that having a 150-year socio-ecoomic head start was an advantage from which many of us still benefit today.

Exactly.

All we need now is for someone to say it's all BS because they were white and poor ;-)

[decocker 7,198]

What about the cop who will be afraid to pull the trigger when his life is in danger because he doesn't want to be labelled a racist? When he ends up dead, who will march for him?

well, the kkk is rallying behind michael brown's killer, maybe they'll show up for wuss cop as well..come on, what kind of a cop is too afraid to pull the trigger?

I'd say that having a 150-year socio-ecoomic head start was an advantage from which many of us still benefit today.

we bought our boot straps in bulk!

[DavenRoxy 1,073]

What about the cop who will be afraid to pull the trigger when his life is in danger because he doesn't want to be labelled a racist? When he ends up dead, who will march for him?

No one except his family and perhaps the department. Sad, eh?

[Karee 4,189]

well, the kkk is rallying behind michael brown's killer, maybe they'll show up for wuss cop as well..come on, what kind of a cop is too afraid to pull the trigger?

Where are these KKK marchers and looters rallying for the cop? I haven't seen them on CNN. I'm pretty sure that would be the top story. So basically you have no valid response to the question, so just throw a grenade?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Guys, the focus of this topic is quite narrow. It would be better to keep the stuff about the MO shooting confined to the other thread, unless it directly relates to the OP here.