Chickens Come Home to Roost

[Danno 1,228]

Chickens Come Home to Roost

By Patrick J. Buchanan

When Ronald Reagan called the Soviet Empire an "evil empire," the phrase reflected his conviction that while the East-West struggle was indeed a global geostrategic conflict, it had a deep moral dimension.

If Americans did not see the Cold War as he did, a battle between good and evil, Reagan knew that they would indefinitely sacrifice neither the wealth of the nation nor the blood of its sons to sustain it.

That is in the character of Americans.

Jimmy Carter had sought to remove that moral dimension by declaring, "We have gotten over our inordinate fear of communism."

But with his "evil empire" speech, Reagan re-moralized the Cold War in what Natan Sharansky called "a moment of moral clarity."

Here we come to the heart of the matter as to why Americans want to stay out of any Ukrainian conflict. Americans not only see no vital U.S. interest, but also no moral dimension to this quarrel.

If, after all, it was a triumph of self-determination for Ukraine to secede from the Russian Federation, do not Russians in Crimea and Donetsk have the same right -- to secede from Kiev and go home to Russia?

If Georgians had a right to break free of the Russian Federation, do not Abkhazians and South Ossetians have a right to break free of Georgia?

Turnabout is fair play is an old American saying.

Op-ed writers bewail Vladimir Putin's threat to the "rules-based" world we have created. But under what rule did we bomb Serbia for 78 days to tear away Kosovo, the cradle province of the Serb people?

Perhaps some history is in order.

Compare how Putin brought about the secession and annexation of Crimea, without bloodshed but with popular approval, with how Sam Houston and friends brought about the secession of Texas from Mexico, and its annexation by the United States in 1845.

When the Mexicans tried to retrieve a disputed piece of their lost Texas territory, James K. Polk accused them of shedding American blood on American soil, had Congress declare war, sent Gen. Winfield Scott and a U.S. army to Mexico City, and annexed the entire northern half of Mexico, which is now the American Southwest and California.

Compared to the Jacksonian, James Polk, Vladimir Putin is Pierre Trudeau.

Even in Eastern Ukraine, it is hard to see a moral issue.

For the Kiev regime is loudly denouncing as "terrorists" the Russians who are taking over city centers by using the exact same tactics the Maidan Square demonstrators used to seize Kiev.

If it was heroic for the Svoboda Party and Pravy Sektor to fight police and torch buildings to oust Viktor Yanukovych, the elected president of Ukraine, upon what ground do the usurpers who inherited his power bewail the same thing being done to them?

Is there not glaring hypocrisy here?

And where do we Americans come off piously damning what the Russians are doing in Ukraine?

A decade ago, the National Endowment for Democracy and its progeny helped to foment the Rose Revolution in Georgia, the Tulip Revolution in Kyrgyzstan, the Cedar Revolution in Lebanon, the Orange Revolution in Kiev, and countless other "color revolutions" to dethrone unresponsive regimes and bring those countries into America's orbit.

In the last decade, Putin has learned how to play the Americans' game. And before winding up in a conflict we managed to avoid over four decades of Cold War, perhaps we should call off this game of thrones, and consign NED to the boneyard.

Today, two courses of action are being hotly pressed upon the Obama White House by the War Party. Both appear likely to lead to disaster.

The first is to arm the Ukrainians. This would likely provoke a war with Russia that Kiev could not win, and lead Ukrainians to believe the Americans will be there beside them, which is not in the cards.

The second option is the sanctions road.

But Europe, dependent on Russian oil and gas, is not going to vote itself a recession. And should the West sanction Russia, Moscow would sanction Ukraine and sink what the Washington Post calls that "black hole of corruption and waste that is the Ukrainian economy."

As for more U.S. warships in the Black and Baltic seas and more F-16s and U.S. troops in Eastern Europe, what is their purpose, when we are not going to go to war with Russia?

In the title of the old song, Johnny Cash got it right, "Don't take your guns to town," unless you're prepared to use them.

Undeniably, President Obama and John Kerry have egg all over their faces today, as they did in the Syrian "red line" episode.

Yet they continue to meddle where we do not belong, issue warnings and threats they have no power to enforce, and bluster and bluff about what they are going to do, when the American people are telling them, "This is not our quarrel."

[lostinblue 1,989]

The community organizer has no clothes. , no clues, is an empty chair. Change IS around the corner but not for the better.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

If, after all, it was a triumph of self-determination for Ukraine to secede from the Russian Federation, do not Russians in Crimea and Donetsk have the same right -- to secede from Kiev and go home to Russia?

If Georgians had a right to break free of the Russian Federation, do not Abkhazians and South Ossetians have a right to break free of Georgia?

When exactly did Ukraine secede from the Russian Federation? And Georgia - when did Georgia secede from the Russian Federation?

[Danno 1,228]

When exactly did Ukraine secede from the Russian Federation? And Georgia - when did Georgia secede from the Russian Federation?

There is the difference between "The Ukraine" as it has always been known and just "Ukraine."

which is a relatively new term.

Q: Why the change?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

There is the difference between "The Ukraine" as it has always been known and just "Ukraine."

which is a relatively new term.

Q: Why the change?

Why don't you answer the questions at hand, Danno? In case you missed them, let me state them again: When exactly did Ukraine secede from the Russian Federation? And Georgia - when did Georgia secede from the Russian Federation?

And don't come back trying to talk about how it may have been "The Georgia" once, okay?

[Danno 1,228]

Why don't you answer the questions at hand, Danno? In case you missed them, let me state them again: When exactly did Ukraine secede from the Russian Federation? And Georgia - when did Georgia secede from the Russian Federation?

And don't come back trying to talk about how it may have been "The Georgia" once, okay?

If it kills me I will school you correctly.

Independence[edit]

Wreath-laying ceremony in Babi Yar, where the Nazis murdered approximately 100,000 people, 1991

On 16 July 1990, the new parliament adopted the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine.^[100]The declaration established the principles of the self-determination of the Ukrainian nation, its democracy, political and economic independence, and the priority of Ukrainian law on the Ukrainian territory over Soviet law. A month earlier, a similar declaration was adopted by the parliament of the Russian SFSR. This started a period of confrontation between the central Soviet, and new republican authorities. In August 1991, a conservative faction among the Communist leaders of the Soviet Union attempted a coup to removeMikhail Gorbachev and to restore the Communist party's power. After the attempt failed, on 24 August 1991 the Ukrainian parliament adopted the Act of Independence in which the parliament declared Ukraine as an independent democratic state.^[101]

^{There is that term you hate "self determination."}

^{Why the need to "self determine" if they were already independent?}

Edited April 20, 2014 by Danno

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

You still did not answer when Ukraine and Georgia seceded from the Russian Federation. Or are you saying that that happened on 16 July 1990? That's a simple yes or no question.

[Brawler7 15]

The Ukraine did not secede from the Russian federation.

[Dakine10 5,452]

You still did not answer when Ukraine and Georgia seceded from the Russian Federation. Or are you saying that that happened on 16 July 1990? That's a simple yes or no question.

He said it happened on August 24th 1991, when Ukraine declared independance. It was later ratified by the Belavezha accords on December 8th 1991. Technically Ukraine seceeded from the Soviet Union, not the Russian federation.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The Ukraine did not secede from the Russian federation.

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner here! Thank you.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

He said it happened on August 24th 1991, when Ukraine declared independance. It was later ratified by the Belavezha accords on December 8th 1991. Technically Ukraine seceeded from the Soviet Union, not the Russian federation.

No, not technically but factually. The Russian Federation was as much a part of the Soviet Union - albeit the biggest and certainly dominant one - as Ukraine and Georgia, etc. So neither Ukraine nor Georgia ever seceded from the Russian Federation. They couldn't have because they were never a part of it to begin with. Ukraine and Georgia became as much sovereign nations upon the collapse of the Soviet Union as the Russian Federation. Since Pat's argument (as well as Putin's line of thinking and the thinking of his supporters) is build on a clearly false premise, the whole argument he (and they) make simply doesn't stand.

[Dakine10 5,452]

So he used the wrong terminology. You often refer to the current Russian state as "the Soviets". Curious that you are hung up on semantics all of a sudden.

Ukraine did declare independance from the USSR prior to the dissolution of the union. The USSR was recognized as a single state by other nations. The USSR dissolved by agreement because they all wanted it to end. If they didn't, it would have continued by force.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

So he used the wrong terminology. You often refer to the current Russian state as "the Soviets". Curious that you are hung up on semantics all of a sudden.

Ukraine did declare independance from the USSR prior to the dissolution of the union. The USSR was recognized as a single state by other nations. The USSR dissolved by agreement because they all wanted it to end. If they didn't, it would have continued by force.

Wrong, I do not refer to the current Russian state as "the Soviets". I refer to the people (Putin et al) that made and sadly still make up the Soviet regime as "the Soviets". I refer to the Russian state as Russia and to the people of Russia as Russians. Hope that clears up the confusion. As for Pat, it's not about him using wrong terminology - he's misstating history and he is basing his argument on a false premise.

[Danno 1,228]

You started off having heartburn over the claim
" Ukraine seceded" you ended up squabbling over the exact timing of a name change.

I agree on the meaningless point you were right.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

You started off having heartburn over the claim

" Ukraine seceded" you ended up squabbling over the exact timing of a name change.

I agree on the meaningless point you were right.

No, Danno, wrong again. As usual. I don't have any heartburn over Pat being wrong about Ukraine having seceded from the Russian Federation that it was never part of to begin with. It's not about timing, it's about the claim that Ukraine seceded from the Russian Federation being patently false. You still haven't figured that out, have you? As to whether or not it's meaningless - well, the supposed secession of Ukraine from the Russian Federation was the very basis for Pat's argument. The basis is gone since that secession never occurred. Thus, the entire argument built on that false premise falls. Meaningless? Yes, Pat's argument is meaningless. Here, we agree.