Egypt warns giving women some rights could destroy society

[NY_BX 397]

Anyone feels, thinks and/or believes Egypt went from bad to worse? What hurts the most is seeing the pain in my husband's face. When he arrived, Egypt was the 'tale of 2 lands,' meaning he'll visit and relive his heritage. Now, he only talks about when and how he can get our nieces out of there.

I really do hope this gets better, especially for women.

Egypt warns giving women some rights could destroy society

By Michelle Nichols | Reuters

By Michelle Nichols

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - Egypt's ruling Muslim Brotherhood warns that a U.N. declaration on women's rights could destroy society by allowing a woman to travel, work and use contraception without her husband's approval and letting her control family spending.

The Islamist party of President Mohamed Mursi outlined 10 reasons why Muslim countries should "reject and condemn" the declaration, which the U.N. Commission on the Status of Women is racing to negotiate a consensus deal on by Friday.

The Brotherhood, which was elected to power in June, posted the statement on its website, www.ikhwanweb.com, on Thursday.

Egypt has joined Iran, Russia and the Vatican - dubbed an "unholy alliance" by some diplomats - in threatening to derail the women's rights declaration by objecting to language on sexual, reproductive and gay rights.

The Muslim Brotherhood said the declaration would give "wives full rights to file legal complaints against husbands accusing them of rape or sexual harassment, obliging competent authorities to deal husbands punishments similar to those prescribed for raping or sexually harassing a stranger."

U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice last week touted at the commission - a global policy-making body created in 1946 for the advancement of women - progress made by the United States in reducing the rate of violence against women by their partners.

"All 50 states in our union now have laws that treat date rape or spousal rape as just as much of a crime as rape by a stranger," Rice said. "We cannot live in truly free societies, if women and girls are not free to reach their full potential."

The contrasting views show the gap that needs to be breached in negotiations on the declaration, which this year is focused on urging an end to violence against women and girls. The commission failed to agree a declaration last year on a theme of empowering rural women due to similar disagreements.

WORLD IS WATCHING

Egypt has proposed an amendment, diplomats say, that would allow countries to avoid implementing the declaration if it clashed with national laws, religious or cultural values. But some diplomats say this would undermine the entire declaration.

The Muslim Brotherhood warned the declaration would give girls sexual freedom, legalize abortion, provide teenagers with contraceptives, give equality to women in marriage and require men and women to share duties such as child care and chores.

It said the declaration would allow "equal rights to homosexuals, and provide protection and respect for prostitutes" and "equal rights to adulterous wives and illegitimate sons resulting from adulterous relationships."

A coalition of Arab human rights groups - from Egypt, Lebanon, the Palestinian Territories, Jordan and Tunisia - called on countries at the Commission on the Status of Women on Thursday to stop using religion, culture, and tradition to justify abuse of women.

"The current positions taken by some Arab governments at this meeting is clearly not representative of civil society views, aspirations or best practices regarding the elimination and prevention of violence against women and girls within our countries," said the statement issued by the Coalition for Sexual and Bodily Rights in Muslim Societies.

Michelle Bachelet, a former president of Chile and head of U.N. Women, which supports the commission, said the commission was unable to reach a deal a decade ago when it last focused on the theme of women's rights and ending violence against women.

"Ten years later, we simply cannot allow disagreement or indecision to block progress for the world's women," Bachelet told the opening session of the commission last week. "The world is watching ... the violence needs to stop."

(Editing by Mohammad Zargham)

[together4evr 360]

stop using religion, culture, and tradition to justify abuse of women

Amen!!

[NY_BX 397]

stop using religion, culture, and tradition to justify abuse of women

Amen!!

Amen!

[Sarah Elle-Même 660]

Oh it makes me laugh these days when news agencies still describe the "Arab Spring" as a movement for democracy. What fantasies and fallacies. Without the Brotherhood [and other Islamist organizations] there would have been no revolution in Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Libya, anywhere. Syria has become the new Iraq/Afghanistan, crippled by sectarian insurgency. Democracy was never an end goal for these groups and anyone who still believes that is a fool. The left in Egypt, much as I have major respect for them and know several in their movement personally, are handicapped by lack of funds and political clout. This is not going to change any time soon.

This is why I believe democracies can only be secular. Governments who wish to uphold the rights of all must be secular. Religious leaders cannot have political power. Once you put a religious spin on it, it undermines the rights of people in the country who are not of that religion, and it also prevents people in the majority religion from practicing their faith in their own way.

As for this declaration, even if adopted by all countries, in the grand scheme of things it will be pretty useless anyway. Not that I think the rights of women and LGBT people don't matter, quite the opposite, but a UN resolution is nothing but a big ol' circle jerk for Western countries and the Global North. There is no real mechanism of enforcement. This is all for the sake of political bluster like most other things coming from the UN.

Also - "All 50 states in our union now have laws that treat date rape or spousal rape as just as much of a crime as rape by a stranger," Rice said. "We cannot live in truly free societies, if women and girls are not free to reach their full potential." I laughed out loud when I read that. Just because there are laws on the book doesn't mean they are enforced in reality. I know this first hand, having been there in the courtroom to watch a jury of 12 people acquit my rapist despite all the evidence against him (DNA, contusions on my body, evidence of harassment by him and his friends after the attack). I followed the law, I did everything I was supposed to do and I got no justice. In the United States of America. In a state in good old Democratic New England. He had a completely incompetent attorney too, in case you were wondering.

We in the US love to say we are the bringers of enlightenment and freedom but we have no right to that title and we're total hypocrites about it. As long as a foreign leader is an ally, he can burn his opposition alive in a vat of boiling water for all we care, sterilize and murder minorities, rape women detainees, and we will keep funneling money and pleading ignorance.

That's my two cents. Maybe too much reality has hardened me.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Sarah and Adnan

[NY_BX 397]

Oh it makes me laugh these days when news agencies still describe the "Arab Spring" as a movement for democracy. What fantasies and fallacies. Without the Brotherhood [and other Islamist organizations] there would have been no revolution in Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Libya, anywhere. Syria has become the new Iraq/Afghanistan, crippled by sectarian insurgency. Democracy was never an end goal for these groups and anyone who still believes that is a fool. The left in Egypt, much as I have major respect for them and know several in their movement personally, are handicapped by lack of funds and political clout. This is not going to change any time soon.

This is why I believe democracies can only be secular. Governments who wish to uphold the rights of all must be secular. Religious leaders cannot have political power. Once you put a religious spin on it, it undermines the rights of people in the country who are not of that religion, and it also prevents people in the majority religion from practicing their faith in their own way.

As for this declaration, even if adopted by all countries, in the grand scheme of things it will be pretty useless anyway. Not that I think the rights of women and LGBT people don't matter, quite the opposite, but a UN resolution is nothing but a big ol' circle jerk for Western countries and the Global North. There is no real mechanism of enforcement. This is all for the sake of political bluster like most other things coming from the UN.

Also - "All 50 states in our union now have laws that treat date rape or spousal rape as just as much of a crime as rape by a stranger," Rice said. "We cannot live in truly free societies, if women and girls are not free to reach their full potential." I laughed out loud when I read that. Just because there are laws on the book doesn't mean they are enforced in reality. I know this first hand, having been there in the courtroom to watch a jury of 12 people acquit my rapist despite all the evidence against him (DNA, contusions on my body, evidence of harassment by him and his friends after the attack). I followed the law, I did everything I was supposed to do and I got no justice. In the United States of America. In a state in good old Democratic New England. He had a completely incompetent attorney too, in case you were wondering.

We in the US love to say we are the bringers of enlightenment and freedom but we have no right to that title and we're total hypocrites about it. As long as a foreign leader is an ally, he can burn his opposition alive in a vat of boiling water for all we care, sterilize and murder minorities, rape women detainees, and we will keep funneling money and pleading ignorance.

That's my two cents. Maybe too much reality has hardened me.

Smartest opinion I've read on VJ thus far....

To the bold statement above, my husband is still in denial over this. I told him exactly the same thing, plus they lack organization and a plan. What was the plan? To oust Mubarak. and then what? What's the plan? We will rebuild. How, where's the architectural plan? There's none. Unions, non-profits, NGO's organize, plan and THEN execute. Plus, they have communications officials who utilize the press effectively. If all we read, see and breath is a handful of highly emotional shenanigans burning buildings, NO ONE with 2 brain cells will care for your cause. If you destroy your own country's infrastructure, why should I care for it? That's a seway to the underlined statement. If 'we' in the US cared, we would teach them how to rise and execute the plan. But no, no enlightenment. Democracy? absolutely none. Freedom? Only they can tell.

Finally, AMEN to religions being out of politics. Period. When I visited Egypt in 2011, I went out with my then fiance and a couple of his friends. Granted, I was the only woman. Anyways, we were talking about the uprising and most of them said "God is our leader." To what I replied: "well, if this fails either you are using the name of God in vain or God f***ed up. If this wins, God will name a human leader that some may not agree with. Either way, someone will be disappointed and will question God." All of them were offended then. They all swore in the name of God this is God's will and they will win. Sadly, it turned out to be a utter failure of epic dimensions. My MIL and SIL wish Mubarak was back. I hurt for them.

I kid you not last week, one of his friends sent me an email questioning God's existance and telling me that he thinks about what I said everyday. He also said he can't talk about this to anyone over there, so that's why he's opening up to me because he knew I would listen and not judge. I explained to him, that, he missed my whole point. The point is not pointing the finger at God, because God has NOTHING to do with this. The point was to be practical and plan logistics to make politics work. God and politics are a bad marriage and its time for an amicable divorce.

Edited March 15, 2013 by NY_BX

[oldahmed 38]

Anyone feels, thinks and/or believes Egypt went from bad to worse? What hurts the most is seeing the pain in my husband's face. When he arrived, Egypt was the 'tale of 2 lands,' meaning he'll visit and relive his heritage. Now, he only talks about when and how he can get our nieces out of there.

I really do hope this gets better, especially for women.

Egypt warns giving women some rights could destroy society

By Michelle Nichols | Reuters

By Michelle Nichols

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - Egypt's ruling Muslim Brotherhood warns that a U.N. declaration on women's rights could destroy society by allowing a woman to travel, work and use contraception without her husband's approval and letting her control family spending.

The Islamist party of President Mohamed Mursi outlined 10 reasons why Muslim countries should "reject and condemn" the declaration, which the U.N. Commission on the Status of Women is racing to negotiate a consensus deal on by Friday.

The Brotherhood, which was elected to power in June, posted the statement on its website, www.ikhwanweb.com, on Thursday.

Egypt has joined Iran, Russia and the Vatican - dubbed an "unholy alliance" by some diplomats - in threatening to derail the women's rights declaration by objecting to language on sexual, reproductive and gay rights.

The Muslim Brotherhood said the declaration would give "wives full rights to file legal complaints against husbands accusing them of rape or sexual harassment, obliging competent authorities to deal husbands punishments similar to those prescribed for raping or sexually harassing a stranger."

U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice last week touted at the commission - a global policy-making body created in 1946 for the advancement of women - progress made by the United States in reducing the rate of violence against women by their partners.

"All 50 states in our union now have laws that treat date rape or spousal rape as just as much of a crime as rape by a stranger," Rice said. "We cannot live in truly free societies, if women and girls are not free to reach their full potential."

The contrasting views show the gap that needs to be breached in negotiations on the declaration, which this year is focused on urging an end to violence against women and girls. The commission failed to agree a declaration last year on a theme of empowering rural women due to similar disagreements.

WORLD IS WATCHING

Egypt has proposed an amendment, diplomats say, that would allow countries to avoid implementing the declaration if it clashed with national laws, religious or cultural values. But some diplomats say this would undermine the entire declaration.

The Muslim Brotherhood warned the declaration would give girls sexual freedom, legalize abortion, provide teenagers with contraceptives, give equality to women in marriage and require men and women to share duties such as child care and chores.

It said the declaration would allow "equal rights to homosexuals, and provide protection and respect for prostitutes" and "equal rights to adulterous wives and illegitimate sons resulting from adulterous relationships."

A coalition of Arab human rights groups - from Egypt, Lebanon, the Palestinian Territories, Jordan and Tunisia - called on countries at the Commission on the Status of Women on Thursday to stop using religion, culture, and tradition to justify abuse of women.

"The current positions taken by some Arab governments at this meeting is clearly not representative of civil society views, aspirations or best practices regarding the elimination and prevention of violence against women and girls within our countries," said the statement issued by the Coalition for Sexual and Bodily Rights in Muslim Societies.

Michelle Bachelet, a former president of Chile and head of U.N. Women, which supports the commission, said the commission was unable to reach a deal a decade ago when it last focused on the theme of women's rights and ending violence against women.

"Ten years later, we simply cannot allow disagreement or indecision to block progress for the world's women," Bachelet told the opening session of the commission last week. "The world is watching ... the violence needs to stop."

(Editing by Mohammad Zargham)

This is what Michelle Nichols says, not necessarly what the MB said. I personally don't believe that people around the world shouild live their lives according to the laws of the 50 U.S. states. People have their own cultures, traditions and religions, and if change needs to be done, it can only be done whithin those parametres.

Egypt is going through a transitional period, which is caracterized by instability, uncertainty and power struggle. It sometimes makes people yearn for the for the old days of a more brutal but stable dictatorships, and it usually gets worse before it gets better.

As for the secular vs religious, people in those regions have already tasted corruption, injustices, and brutality of secular regimes, let them try something different. The most important is for them to preserve the right to chose a different system if they need to.

[Sarah Elle-Même 660]

This is what Michelle Nichols says, not necessarly what the MB said. I personally don't believe that people around the world shouild live their lives according to the laws of the 50 U.S. states. People have their own cultures, traditions and religions, and if change needs to be done, it can only be done whithin those parametres.

Egypt is going through a transitional period, which is caracterized by instability, uncertainty and power struggle. It sometimes makes people yearn for the for the old days of a more brutal but stable dictatorships, and it usually gets worse before it gets better.

As for the secular vs religious, people in those regions have already tasted corruption, injustices, and brutality of secular regimes, let them try something different. The most important is for them to preserve the right to chose a different system if they need to.

Oh great so now they will face the corruption, injustice, and brutality of religious regimes. Look at Saudi Arabia and Iran! What a joke. The secular leaders were autocratic dictators. This was the problem, not that they were secular! Egypt is not a monolith. Tunisia is not a monolith. Libya is not a monolith. Even Yemen is not a monolith. You've got people of different religions and people who don't practice religion. No one should be forced to obey religious laws in the civil realm that don't apply to them, which is what will ultimately happen in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, etc.

I recognize that our media mis-characterizes the Muslim Brotherhood, as with everything in that part of the world. But it doesn't change the fact that them being in power is not a step forward. They are not a party or a president for all Egyptians, nor do they have any desire to be.

[oldahmed 38]

Oh great so now they will face the corruption, injustice, and brutality of religious regimes. Look at Saudi Arabia and Iran! What a joke. The secular leaders were autocratic dictators. This was the problem, not that they were secular! Egypt is not a monolith. Tunisia is not a monolith. Libya is not a monolith. Even Yemen is not a monolith. You've got people of different religions and people who don't practice religion. No one should be forced to obey religious laws in the civil realm that don't apply to them, which is what will ultimately happen in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, etc.

I recognize that our media mis-characterizes the Muslim Brotherhood, as with everything in that part of the world. But it doesn't change the fact that them being in power is not a step forward. They are not a party or a president for all Egyptians, nor do they have any desire to be.

Notice you are using the future tense. You cannot judge them now by what you think they will do in the future. Let them work, then the people of Egypt will decide. That is why I emphasized the fact thet egyptian people should strive to protect their right to chose their leaders.

Whether the MB being in power is a step forward or backward is for the people of Egypt to decide not for you, and they should take responsiblity for their choices good or bad.

Look at Saudi Arabia and Iran!

Egypt is different from these two country. Very different.

Egypt is not a monolith. Tunisia is not a monolith. Libya is not a monolith. Even Yemen is not a monolith.

I thought I understtod what you meant but then you lost me when you said "Even Yemen is not monolith" which assumes Yemen is different from the other.

They are not a party or a president for all Egyptians

Barack Ibama is not a president of all Americans, neither has any [?] of the US presidents been, but that's democracy, isn't it? It works the same in Egypt and elswhere.

No one should be forced to obey religious laws in the civil realm that don't apply to them, which is what will ultimately happen in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, etc.

Totally agree with the first part, but the second part is just your biased ASSUMPTION.

I recognize that our media mis-characterizes the Muslim Brotherhood, as with everything in that part of the world.

Although that is true, we cannot blame our ignorance on the media. Soem people like what nurtures their own biases. You can easily figure the author of the article put her own spin on the story to make it "catchy", then spiced up the article with her ignorance.

Edited March 19, 2013 by oldahmed

[sandinista! 1,816]

When will silly, backwards and feeble brained brown people just accept the fact that (usually)white, American, supposed liberals have it all figured out and know what's best for everyone on the planet? Their way or the highway oldahmed, their way or the highway.

Anything else means, zomg Saudi Arabia and Iran, duuuhhh.

Edited March 19, 2013 by sandinista!

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

I believe in evolution. It just takes time for a country that has strong ties to the stone age to become an industrialized nation. While it would be wonderful if the US or any country or pack of countries could correct wrongdoings in the world, especially human injustice, it's just not possible. Thus, we should allow those countries to get there eventually in a timely manner (200 years, perhaps) and stay out of it.

For me, defense means just that. We are a nation of incredible military power, including more nukes that's needed to blow this planet up so that's pretty much nothing left, and we sold those same nukes to other countries, including Israel. So it's just hypocriticial if we tell other countries they can't have what we have because we are the good guys and our wars are just and they are the bad guys and their wars are injust. We should defend our country against attacks and can help our allies if they are being attacked. Other than that, we should defend our borders, and nothing else, and unless we are being attacked on our soil, we have no business of even firing a single shot.

Imagine we would have always invested the trillions of dollars we used to blow up other countries and other people right here in America. We'd be number one in the world again, in pretty much everything: high speed rails with 260mph trains, the best educational system as it's free for everyone, the best health care, free for every citizen, the best teachers, as we would pay them well, the best infrastructure, as we would try to be a world leader in that as well. The only losers would be the guys who make money off of wars, and I don't give a rat's behind about those.