Visa Turned Down in India due to "(in)sufficient economic and social ties to assure their departure after a limited stay in the United States"

[thedude6752000 360]

My girlfriend was applying for a student visa at the Deli embassy to come over here and study in in an English program (before anyone asks--we were not using this to get around doing a marriage or fiance visa, she has every intent of returning to India). She got turned down because "the INA requires all applicants to overcome the presumption of immigrant intent by establishing that they have sufficient economic and social ties to assure their departure after a limited stay in the United States." She can apply again but this time she wants to bring proof of her economic ties to India. What can she bring this time? What will they find acceptable? She has two jobs and many family members in India.

Edited April 9, 2012 by thedude6752000

[Noah Lot 387]

My girlfriend was applying for a student visa at the Deli embassy to come over here and study in in an English program (before anyone asks--we were not using this to get around doing a marriage or fiance visa, she has every intent of returning to India). She got turned down because "the INA requires all applicants to overcome the presumption of immigrant intent by establishing that they have sufficient economic and social ties to assure their departure after a limited stay in the United States." She can apply again but this time she wants to bring proof of her economic ties to India. What can she bring this time? What will they find acceptable? She has two jobs and many family members in India.

How can she quit two jobs merely to study English?

Moreover, the ESL visa request is by far the most common route many people use to circumvent the K1 visa....so common that many young single applicants find it impossible to qualify because in real life, so few ever return (and not surprisingly wind up marrying their 'sponsor' for said studies, who of course turned out to be more than the 'family friend' claimed on their application).

Having parents and siblings are not realistically strong ties....she is an adult, and sooner or later (sounds like sooner) she will be leaving them permanently to live her own life...so these family members are not really a compelling reason for her to return home. And apparently she can easily abandon not one, but TWO jobs for an extended period merely to study English.....promises of future employment are equally without merit since such offers are totally non-enforceable and there are no penalties for failing to return to take said promised empployment.

And as I have said numerous times before, while 99.9% of people posting their version of 'intent', about 99.9% of those same posters whose BF/GF did get the visa also experience that amazing mind change about that intent moments after clearing baggage claim....a fact that VOs know only too well.

Worldwide (something I read about 3 years ago and I doubt it has changed much) the return rate of students who go to the US ostensibly to study English is less than 2%....that includes folks from Western Europe in the entire mix...more than 75% wind up marrying their 'family friend' sponsor...which is a coincidence that is just too coincidental.

[thedude6752000 360]

How can she quit two jobs merely to study English?

Moreover, the ESL visa request is by far the most common route many people use to circumvent the K1 visa....so common that many young single applicants find it impossible to qualify because in real life, so few ever return (and not surprisingly wind up marrying their 'sponsor' for said studies, who of course turned out to be more than the 'family friend' claimed on their application).

Having parents and siblings are not realistically strong ties....she is an adult, and sooner or later (sounds like sooner) she will be leaving them permanently to live her own life...so these family members are not really a compelling reason for her to return home. And apparently she can easily abandon not one, but TWO jobs for an extended period merely to study English.....promises of future employment are equally without merit since such offers are totally non-enforceable and there are no penalties for failing to return to take said promised empployment.

And as I have said numerous times before, while 99.9% of people posting their version of 'intent', about 99.9% of those same posters whose BF/GF did get the visa also experience that amazing mind change about that intent moments after clearing baggage claim....a fact that VOs know only too well.

Worldwide (something I read about 3 years ago and I doubt it has changed much) the return rate of students who go to the US ostensibly to study English is less than 2%....that includes folks from Western Europe in the entire mix...more than 75% wind up marrying their 'family friend' sponsor...which is a coincidence that is just too coincidental.

I find your response patronizing and frankly quite a bit offensive. I went to school at FSU which has a very active ESL program and having known lots of the ESL students there (mostly young Saudi men but also plenty of people from Latin American countries) I can tell you for a fact that more than 2% of single ESL students return to their home country. Moreover this is a summer-long program and she will be staying at my place; it would be patently obvious to anyone that if we married we had used the F1 to circumvent the K1 and so for this reason alone we are not contemplating such a stupid and illegal move. I nor she wants to be found guilty of immigration fraud or become a criminal in anyway, and I find the accusation more than a bit insulting. Furthermore despite the lofty tone of your message you seem to fail to realize the reason WHY so many people want to circumvent the K1--being forced into separation for 8 months to a year (tends to be more if you're coming from a non-white developing country like my girlfriend is) is just ridiculous and unnecessary--to to mention hypocritical coming from the one country (the US) which has done more than any other to make sure the financial capital can flow freely and without delay from one country to another, the consequences to the people of those countries be damned. To move $100,000,000 from Delhi to New York takes not even a day.....to move your fiancee takes a year. Seems clear to me where this country's priorities lie..........

[Noah Lot 387]

I find your response patronizing and frankly quite a bit offensive. I went to school at FSU which has a very active ESL program and having known lots of the ESL students there (mostly young Saudi men but also plenty of people from Latin American countries) I can tell you for a fact that more than 2% of single ESL students return to their home country. Moreover this is a summer-long program and she will be staying at my place; it would be patently obvious to anyone that if we married we had used the F1 to circumvent the K1 and so for this reason alone we are not contemplating such a stupid and illegal move. I nor she wants to be found guilty of immigration fraud or become a criminal in anyway, and I find the accusation more than a bit insulting. Furthermore despite the lofty tone of your message you seem to fail to realize the reason WHY so many people want to circumvent the K1--being forced into separation for 8 months to a year (tends to be more if you're coming from a non-white developing country like my girlfriend is) is just ridiculous and unnecessary--to to mention hypocritical coming from the one country (the US) which has done more than any other to make sure the financial capital can flow freely and without delay from one country to another, the consequences to the people of those countries be damned. To move $100,000,000 from Delhi to New York takes not even a day.....to move your fiancee takes a year. Seems clear to me where this country's priorities lie..........

Just because my response was accurate, well, some people don't like to hear the truth...and rich Saudis have no reason to remain in the US...as to the lengthy processing time, well, how about if the processing fees were raised to, oh say, $10,000, in order to hire the increased numbers of ajudicators to process the avalanche of applications? As to this situation being ridiculous, well, how would YOU solve the problem? Rubber stamp every application? Work 24/7? Really?

I spent considerable time 'behind the line' in two different consular sections some years ago (in an intern program) and having observed the results of ESL visas, tourist visas to visit 'friends' etc, the abuse rate from developing countries is off the charts, whether you believe it or not.

And if you don't like the US of A (which it appears you don't), well, airplanes are departing for all those 'wonderful countries' around the globe constantly...

and like so many others, you apparently feel that it is OK to circumvent other legal processes...which only reinforces my belief about your true long term plans...

Edited April 9, 2012 by Noah Lot

[Noah Lot 387]

I find your response patronizing and frankly quite a bit offensive. I went to school at FSU which has a very active ESL program and having known lots of the ESL students there (mostly young Saudi men but also plenty of people from Latin American countries) I can tell you for a fact that more than 2% of single ESL students return to their home country. Moreover this is a summer-long program and she will be staying at my place; it would be patently obvious to anyone that if we married we had used the F1 to circumvent the K1 and so for this reason alone we are not contemplating such a stupid and illegal move. I nor she wants to be found guilty of immigration fraud or become a criminal in anyway, and I find the accusation more than a bit insulting. Furthermore despite the lofty tone of your message you seem to fail to realize the reason WHY so many people want to circumvent the K1--being forced into separation for 8 months to a year (tends to be more if you're coming from a non-white developing country like my girlfriend is) is just ridiculous and unnecessary--to to mention hypocritical coming from the one country (the US) which has done more than any other to make sure the financial capital can flow freely and without delay from one country to another, the consequences to the people of those countries be damned. To move $100,000,000 from Delhi to New York takes not even a day.....to move your fiancee takes a year. Seems clear to me where this country's priorities lie..........

the 2% figure was the average, when all ESL students were considered....the return rate to developing countries was virtually non existent. Which is why your GF will have her application put under a microscope.

[Harsh_77 716]

First coming from India to learn English sounds complete bogus, when English is one of common language in the country. Major portion of Govt and legal work is all done in English.

On top if it you sound like a hypocrite you want to live in this country, bring your GF to this country and you want to bad mouth this country.

Just coz you want your GF in US consulate does not have to grant her visa, if you are USC than also you don’t have any right to bring your GF and if you are on Visa you don’t even have room to talk.

If you don’t like the visa processing time, then there is always the option to stay in country of your choice where visa processing time s faster.

[thedude6752000 360]

Just because my response was accurate, well, some people don't like to hear the truth...and rich Saudis have no reason to remain in the US...as to the lengthy processing time, well, how about if the processing fees were raised to, oh say, $10,000, in order to hire the increased numbers of ajudicators to process the avalanche of applications? As to this situation being ridiculous, well, how would YOU solve the problem? Rubber stamp every application? Work 24/7? Really?

I spent considerable time 'behind the line' in two different consular sections some years ago (in an intern program) and having observed the results of ESL visas, tourist visas to visit 'friends' etc, the abuse rate from developing countries is off the charts, whether you believe it or not.

And if you don't like the US of A (which it appears you don't), well, airplanes are departing for all those 'wonderful countries' around the globe constantly...

and like so many others, you apparently feel that it is OK to circumvent other legal processes...which only reinforces my belief about your true long term plans...

Never mind the fact that all but four of the nineteen 9/11 hijackers were Saudis, if they have money the more the merrier, if not they can go just stay put in their "savage" countries......nice chain a reasoning there. I'm not going to debate the merits of the system here except to say that in my opinion it's obviously over complicated and clearly advantageous to rich people and people from white countries. And as for your ridiculous assertion that I don't "like the US of A" and I should leave because I disagree with its immigration and foreign policy I'm not about to justify this type of McCarthyite nonsense with any type of a credible response here. Despite your accusations we have no intent of doing anything fraudulent or illegal and I only want to know what evidence she can offer to strengthen her case. If you can't help me with that Noah I would appreciate if you left the conversation and let others who do know help out. Thank you.

[thedude6752000 360]

First coming from India to learn English sounds complete bogus, when English is one of common language in the country. Major portion of Govt and legal work is all done in English.

On top if it you sound like a hypocrite you want to live in this country, bring your GF to this country and you want to bad mouth this country.

Just coz you want your GF in US consulate does not have to grant her visa, if you are USC than also you don’t have any right to bring your GF and if you are on Visa you don’t even have room to talk.

If you don’t like the visa processing time, then there is always the option to stay in country of your choice where visa processing time s faster.

Honestly her English is good but it's very Indian. I talk to her in Hindi most of the time because I often have trouble understanding the things she says to me in English. Her writing is likewise good but extremely "regional." She has a job tutoring American children by Skype so she really could use to improve her accent and idioms (not to mention the fact that her major in the University was English and she has wanted to study in the West for a very long time). Also as for staying in another country I'm a recent college graduate with very little money, I don't have the luxury of just up and moving to any country I want to and neither does she......

[thedude6752000 360]

Also I'm not "badmouthing" this country I just disagree with its immigration policy. At least in my America I was taught that dissent which seeks to improve your country is patriotic, I however do not know what you have learned about the subject. I really only said what I did in response to Noah's rather (IMO) accusatory and holier-than-thou post in which he accused me of wanting to circumvent the immigration process (which is simply NOT true). God bless you and God bless the US of A

[Harsh_77 716]

Honestly her English is good but it's very Indian. I talk to her in Hindi most of the time because I often have trouble understanding the things she says to me in English. Her writing is likewise good but extremely "regional." She has a job tutoring American children by Skype so she really could use to improve her accent and idioms (not to mention the fact that her major in the University was English and she has wanted to study in the West for a very long time). Also as for staying in another country I'm a recent college graduate with very little money, I don't have the luxury of just up and moving to any country I want to and neither does she......

Most CO’s (embassy) is aware now days there are lot of places in India who would teach you, American English, with slangs and the American pronunciation, American way of constructing sentence etc.

How do you think call center folks pick up their English, companies don’t bring them to US – so they can go thru ESL class.

Major companies call center are setup in India and most of them speak very well English.

Unfortunately I don’t think just the pretext of learning English would fly, if she was applying for something like Masters or something then it would have been total different case.

Single, young, unmarried girl the chances of getting visa are very low, you can still try but to convince the CO she would return back would be very difficult.

Noah – is one of the major contributor on here lot of the time he comes hard and sometime ppl even tell me I come hard, but these are the facts.

[Harsh_77 716]

Also I'm not "badmouthing" this country I just disagree with its immigration policy. At least in my America I was taught that dissent which seeks to improve your country is patriotic, I however do not know what you have learned about the subject. I really only said what I did in response to Noah's rather (IMO) accusatory and holier-than-thou post in which he accused me of wanting to circumvent the immigration process (which is simply NOT true). God bless you and God bless the US of A

Unfortunately the countries immigration policy would do not work on individual preference, right now you want your GF to move with you and that is not happening hence you disagree with immigration policy.

There are thousands of ppl lined up to come to US, US cannot just open the gates and let any and everyone come to US.

You talking about Saudis, and they were major portion of 9/11 squad – you are right but you don’t know how difficult it is for them to come to US.

They are put in Administrative process for 6-8 months with no response to what is happening to their case. They are put in administrative process even when their visa is approved.

[thedude6752000 360]

Single, young, unmarried girl the chances of getting visa are very low, you can still try but to convince the CO she would return back would be very difficult.

How could we convince him? What proof could we show him?

[thedude6752000 360]

Unfortunately the countries immigration policy would do not work on individual preference, right now you want your GF to move with you and that is not happening hence you disagree with immigration policy.

There are thousands of ppl lined up to come to US, US cannot just open the gates and let any and everyone come to US.

You talking about Saudis, and they were major portion of 9/11 squad – you are right but you don’t know how difficult it is for them to come to US.

They are put in Administrative process for 6-8 months with no response to what is happening to their case. They are put in administrative process even when their visa is approved.

I know quite a few Saudis studying English here (and generally not doing a very good job of it, unlike my GF who has top marks in all of her classes....) and they did not face any significant wait time in getting their visa. They were also not turned away at their preliminary visa interview like she was, without even being told why (she got an email informing her one week after).

[Harsh_77 716]

How could we convince him? What proof could we show him?

You can show the family, family income and assest if she has any commitment in India and than you can show that.

Again would that be enough, no one on here can answer that.

[Divs 35]

Since she's so keen to do the program out there, why not go the K1 route and get her the visa so that she can join you there? She could always get into the program of her choice afterwards. The program ain't going anywhere, for sure!