What is the definition of a "fraudulent" fiance petition?

[wynterstail 0]

Does anyone know if there are actual regulations that definite fraud wtih any specificity? I've been reading the threat about a couple battling the embassy in Columbia because of insufficient evidence, that obviously had a great deal of evidence. Yet, i know many other couples who'd barely known each other and got the visa. Does fraud imply that the petitioner is not actually in a relationship with the beneficiary? Or that the petition is gaining something (money, or whatever) in exchange for filing the petition? Otherwise, how can they make a subjective decision on the legitimacy of any relationship?

[sarah and hicham 3]

Hmm that is a very good question. To be honest with you I think in some cases the Officer at the Consulate has pretty much made up their mind before the interview about what they will do. If you look in the ME/NA forum this is a struggle for a lot of the women who have had their petitions returned to USCIS. Sometimes people have tons of evidence but they do not show it, sometimes maybe the fiance(e) is nervous and forgets dates or names. Some cases have red flags such as age difference, lack of common knowledge, sending money to the foreign fiance(e) etc that alarm the officer. Sometimes I think it just depends on the Officer giving the interview, and if they haven't had their juice for the day they freak out and deny people. I wish I knew the answer to your question, those are just my thoughts and theories.

[Ladylethal 12]

Unfortunatelly, the consular has a very subjective way of deciding if the relationship is a true one or a fraud. So we'll see people that have known each other for 2 months filing for a K1 and getting it without any problems, and people going together for years and years full of evidence having trouble being approved.

We know that the amount of time one knows the other doesn't mean they are true or being fraudulent, and you may have a couple full of evidence who's actually in a fraudulent relationship.

[Mew 0]

This is interesting: 9 FAM 41.81 N6.7 Additional Factors That May Raise Questions in K-1 Cases - you can find it here: http://foia.state.gov/masterdocs/09fam/0941081N.pdf

[morocco4ever 63]

I think the reason they feel that way is because the man is usually the breadwinner and many times the woman doesnt work. Some men don't spend a dime on their women, and some lavish them with gifts. I think the man that is more willing to share everything including his money is indeed a sign of love. Also everyone is into showing off there, so when a women is wearing something her husband bought her, everyone is going to know that he bought it for her and its a sign of respect for her to be able to show off what he bought.

I remember when I got engaged, my fiance insisted on buying me gold. I told him I would prefer a diamond ring. Well in Jordan diamonds are not really popular and they don't really see them as valueable. However gold is very valueable. He bought me a huge set of gold, it was so heavy. He insisted because he said it would show everyone just how much he loved me, thats the way they see it there. A women is worth her weight in gold.

He does so many other things to show he loves me, but no one else can see or knows those things. So this is more so to show others. I guess if I went to someones home and the man was driving a mercedes and his wife was dressed poorly, then I would think he didn't really care enough about her to even let her feel good about herself.

Thats my 2 cents....

Unfortunatelly, the consular has a very subjective way of deciding if the relationship is a true one or a fraud. So we'll see people that have known each other for 2 months filing for a K1 and getting it without any problems, and people going together for years and years full of evidence having trouble being approved.

We know that the amount of time one knows the other doesn't mean they are true or being fraudulent, and you may have a couple full of evidence who's actually in a fraudulent relationship.

This may be true, but it would be nice if they would just look at the evidence before deciding. Maybe, just maybe what is in the evidence will address their concerns. The is a very volitile subject to some of us that are indeed in a true relationship, but they didn't give us the opportunity to prove our case.

[Mew 0]

Hmm that is a very good question. To be honest with you I think in some cases the Officer at the Consulate has pretty much made up their mind before the interview about what they will do. If you look in the ME/NA forum this is a struggle for a lot of the women who have had their petitions returned to USCIS. Sometimes people have tons of evidence but they do not show it, sometimes maybe the fiance(e) is nervous and forgets dates or names. Some cases have red flags such as age difference, lack of common knowledge, sending money to the foreign fiance(e) etc that alarm the officer. Sometimes I think it just depends on the Officer giving the interview, and if they haven't had their juice for the day they freak out and deny people. I wish I knew the answer to your question, those are just my thoughts and theories.

About red flags: http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...mp;hl=red+flags

[I'm Gone 60]

Otherwise, how can they make a subjective decision on the legitimacy of any relationship?

Because that's what they are paid to do and the burden is on you to prove to them things are on the level.

[Cassie 8]

Does anyone know if there are actual regulations that definite fraud wtih any specificity? I've been reading the threat about a couple battling the embassy in Columbia because of insufficient evidence, that obviously had a great deal of evidence. Yet, i know many other couples who'd barely known each other and got the visa. Does fraud imply that the petitioner is not actually in a relationship with the beneficiary? Or that the petition is gaining something (money, or whatever) in exchange for filing the petition? Otherwise, how can they make a subjective decision on the legitimacy of any relationship?

Just because you have a ton of evidence, does not mean you have the correct stuff that the consulate is looking for. Or, you could bring too much evidence -- evidence that causes the adjudicator to suspect things.

[sarah and hicham 3]

Does anyone know if there are actual regulations that definite fraud wtih any specificity? I've been reading the threat about a couple battling the embassy in Columbia because of insufficient evidence, that obviously had a great deal of evidence. Yet, i know many other couples who'd barely known each other and got the visa. Does fraud imply that the petitioner is not actually in a relationship with the beneficiary? Or that the petition is gaining something (money, or whatever) in exchange for filing the petition? Otherwise, how can they make a subjective decision on the legitimacy of any relationship?

Just because you have a ton of evidence, does not mean you have the correct stuff that the consulate is looking for. Or, you could bring too much evidence -- evidence that causes the adjudicator to suspect things.

Assuming that one has all the correct forms and documents needed by the Consulate then evidence is your only way to prove your case to them. It depends on the Consulate but I don't think it's possible to bring too much evidence. The Officer sees the case on paper and the reason they interview is to look at evidence and speak to the fiance(e) which can trigger an approval or denial.

[morocco4ever 63]

Otherwise, how can they make a subjective decision on the legitimacy of any relationship?

Because that's what they are paid to do and the burden is on you to prove to them things are on the level.

It is their job, but unfortunately they don't always do their job correctly. We had ours sent back to the CIS because they thought our relationship was fraud. They didn't look at any of our evidence other than our pictures.

They have now reaffirmed our case, and now I know what they based their denial on. Like I said, my husband was equiped with everything to prove our case. Indulge me and let me show you.

Denial reason 1:

Married shortly after they met.

Proof:

We had met a year prior, and we had the intitial contact with dates, as well as several e-mails to prove this.

Denial reason 2:

Marriage ceremony was small.

Proof:

I had 2 weeks and 5 days of vacation time. It took 2 weeks and 1 day to get the required approval to get married. Hardly enough time to prepare an elaborate wedding. Assuming we even wanted a large wedding. We had proof of that as well.

Denial reason 3:

There was no friends or family at the wedding.

Proof:

Pictures clearly showing his family and friends in attendance.

Just imagine what would have happened if the CO had just simply asked those three questions. My husband could have pulled out the proof and he would be with me here today, as well as save the tax payers dollars to do send this back. He refused to look at anything. So if the burden is up to us, how do you suggest we do that in this circumstance?

This has happened to a large amount of women on visa journey in Morocco. How many others has this happened too? How much money is spent on cases that are not processed properly? I don't even want to hear how they are back logged, making their job difficult. When I see ####### like this I see that they create their own work.

Edited October 1, 2006 by Morocco4ever

[wynterstail 0]

I'm not sure if that's accurate...I don't think in this case that the petitioner and beneficiary have to rebutt the presumption that the relationship is fraudulent unless you can prove otherwise.

Really, when you get down to it--what IS a fraudulent relationship for this purpose? I would think it's that the couple have no real intention to marry other than on paper, and that the US petitioner has some reason, something to gain, by petitioning for the foreign fiance to enter the US.Now I'm wonderig what due process rights the petitioner has if the visa is denied. After all, it's the petition of the US citizen that's being called fraudulent, not the actual visa application which is the same whether you apply for a visitor's visa, k-1 or whatever.

Any immigration attorney's out there???

Otherwise, how can they make a subjective decision on the legitimacy of any relationship?

Because that's what they are paid to do and the burden is on you to prove to them things are on the level.

[Yodrak 7]

wynterstail,

The petitioner must demonstrate that the beneficiary qualifies to apply for the visa, the benficiary must demonstrate that they qualify for the visa and are admissable.

Yodrak

I'm not sure if that's accurate...I don't think in this case that the petitioner and beneficiary have to rebutt the presumption that the relationship is fraudulent unless you can prove otherwise.

....

Otherwise, how can they make a subjective decision on the legitimacy of any relationship?

Because that's what they are paid to do and the burden is on you to prove to them things are on the level.

[Mew 0]

9 FAM 41.81 N6.5 Marriage Bona Fides

(CT:VISA-756; 07-27-2005)

a. If a consular officer finds that the fiance(e) or marital relationship is not bona fide but is a sham entered into solely for immigration benefits, post should return the K-1 or K-3 petition with a recommendation for revocation to the national visa center (NVC) under cover of a memorandum detailing the specific, objective facts giving rise to the posts conclusion.

b. All Immigrant and K-1/K-3 Visa revocation cases are to be returned to the following address:

National Visa Center 32 Rochester Ave. Portsmouth, NH 03801 Attn: Fraud Prevention Manager

http://foia.state.gov/masterdocs/09fam/0941081N.pdf

I would assume that after that some kind of notice is sent to the petitioner and I remember reading on VJ about a case like this. It's worth doing some research, if you're interested.