Attitudes towards Muslims in America

[Robert&Karen 264]

Where is your tolerance? You think things are black and white, but they are not.

Yea it's not black and white, it's more like black and dark gray.

[Golden Gate 530]

Yea it's not black and white, it's more like black and dark gray.

I am sorry you have suffered and lost many friends. It is tragic. Really the world is in a sad situation. However, I have friends who are Muslim, who are also suffering. I also had a friend in Liberia, whose entire family was massacred when he was a teenager. I don't condone violence at all in any form. It is just that I don't see people in terms of groupings like that. My friends come in all races and religions, and I look at people individually, and so I like to encourage the same. I know it can be hard, but hatred is a lethal thing, and we can only conquer these evils by sticking together, not dividing. I wish you all the best in your life and I hope you don't have to see such things again.

[san diego 407]

I am sorry you have suffered and lost many friends. It is tragic. Really the world is in a sad situation. However, I have friends who are Muslim, who are also suffering. I also had a friend in Liberia, whose entire family was massacred when he was a teenager. I don't condone violence at all in any form. It is just that I don't see people in terms of groupings like that. My friends come in all races and religions, and I look at people individually, and so I like to encourage the same. I know it can be hard, but hatred is a lethal thing, and we can only conquer these evils by sticking together, not dividing. I wish you all the best in your life and I hope you don't have to see such things again.

It is hard to be tolerant when muslims denounce any othre religion. It is hard to be tolerant when they destroy buddha statue and yet demand respect to their religion not respecting other religions. It is hard to be tolerant when they blow up buildings in US, buses with children in Israel and trains with peaceful people in Spain, and all in the name of the Allah. Why it is especially hard to be tolerant is while minority actually do terrorist acts, majority condone it and cheer. It is hard to tolerate palestinians that cheered on the streets when 9/11 happened. We were tolerant for waaay too long. We refuse to be tr4eated like ####### while treating the ones that treat us like this with respect. I do believe that there are nice muslims. They are just in minority and this is the fact.

[Golden Gate 530]

It is hard to be tolerant when muslims denounce any othre religion. It is hard to be tolerant when they destroy buddha statue and yet demand respect to their religion not respecting other religions. It is hard to be tolerant when they blow up buildings in US, buses with children in Israel and trains with peaceful people in Spain, and all in the name of the Allah. Why it is especially hard to be tolerant is while minority actually do terrorist acts, majority condone it and cheer. It is hard to tolerate palestinians that cheered on the streets when 9/11 happened. We were tolerant for waaay too long. We refuse to be tr4eated like ####### while treating the ones that treat us like this with respect. I do believe that there are nice muslims. They are just in minority and this is the fact.

Muslims don't denounce other religions - they are people of the book, just as the Jews and the Christians - we are all people of the book. These are governments and extremists who are destroying these statues. There are ignorant people and people with malicious intent. You are confusing people's actions with the concepts of Islam.

You can't say that a majority condone this, because that is a generalization not based on fact. You are pulling things out of context. I don't think a person can make generalizations about a religion, because of the actions of some countries. Believe me, Morocco isn't a hotbed of Democracy, and the people there suffer a lot. Many are illiterate, have no political power, will die from childbirth because of lack of medical care, will never be able to succeed to have a normal life, and are basically treated like insects by their government. So should we hate them because they are Muslim????

The USA has had it's share of meddling in the affairs of other countries and they have also contributed to the many factors involved in what creates the dynamics of the world: poverty, colonialism, oppression by governments, illiteracy, etcetera. Knowledge begins at home. There are so many factors that are creating the angst that exists in the world. How can you say we are tolerant??? Our government surely creates some of the problems, while it professes to spread democracy, it gives money to both sides, and trains some of these people who end up being the big killers. I don't see how being intolerant of all Muslims helps create peace in the world.

I have friends who are Jewish, Jews for Jesus, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheist, Agnostics...many within my own family. I don't see this constant conversation about putting Muslims on one side and the rest on the other as productive or healing in anyway. Recently I went to a lecture on Islam at Hope College - A Dutch Reformed University. I found the students there, most of whom are Christian, much more willing and inclined to listen and to try to understand what Islam is, rather than to condemn Muslims because of events that have taken place in the world. Their minds are open, not closed.

No one wants to be treated like #######, including the majority of the people who live in 3rd World countries and have no say in how their countries are run and have no power to change anything. That is what I mean by tolerance. Don't put all people in the same category, and perhaps spend some time with people who suffer much more greatly than we do here in America. Knowledge comes from within, not without, and no one is going to gain much by reading things in the media. Find out for yourself, get to know people yourself, to find out that most share similar sentiments, similar desires and similar needs as yourself.

These blanket statements and blanket sentiments do nothing but provoke negative feelings.

[san diego 407]

Muslims don't denounce other religions - they are people of the book, just as the Jews and the Christians - we are all people of the book. These are governments and extremists who are destroying these statues. There are ignorant people and people with malicious intent. You are confusing people's actions with the concepts of Islam.

You can't say that a majority condone this, because that is a generalization not based on fact. You are pulling things out of context. I don't think a person can make generalizations about a religion, because of the actions of some countries. Believe me, Morocco isn't a hotbed of Democracy, and the people there suffer a lot. Many are illiterate, have no political power, will die from childbirth because of lack of medical care, will never be able to succeed to have a normal life, and are basically treated like insects by their government. So should we hate them because they are Muslim????

The USA has had it's share of meddling in the affairs of other countries and they have also contributed to the many factors involved in what creates the dynamics of the world: poverty, colonialism, oppression by governments, illiteracy, etcetera. Knowledge begins at home. There are so many factors that are creating the angst that exists in the world. How can you say we are tolerant??? Our government surely creates some of the problems, while it professes to spread democracy, it gives money to both sides, and trains some of these people who end up being the big killers. I don't see how being intolerant of all Muslims helps create peace in the world.

I have friends who are Jewish, Jews for Jesus, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheist, Agnostics...many within my own family. I don't see this constant conversation about putting Muslims on one side and the rest on the other as productive or healing in anyway. Recently I went to a lecture on Islam at Hope College - A Dutch Reformed University. I found the students there, most of whom are Christian, much more willing and inclined to listen and to try to understand what Islam is, rather than to condemn Muslims because of events that have taken place in the world. Their minds are open, not closed.

No one wants to be treated like #######, including the majority of the people who live in 3rd World countries and have no say in how their countries are run and have no power to change anything. That is what I mean by tolerance. Don't put all people in the same category, and perhaps spend some time with people who suffer much more greatly than we do here in America. Knowledge comes from within, not without, and no one is going to gain much by reading things in the media. Find out for yourself, get to know people yourself, to find out that most share similar sentiments, similar desires and similar needs as yourself.

These blanket statements and blanket sentiments do nothing but provoke negative feelings.

I cannot agree more with your statements. However, this is not only US that suffers from such extremism. France, Spain, UK, Israel, Russia. You name it. How can you explain this? Obviously, if extremists did not have support of the population they would not be successful. Take another prospective: Joseph Marie de Maistre said: "Each country has the government it deserves". We, the citizens of the country to blame for our government. If you put a sole blame of the extremism and oppression on the governments of the Muslim countries, why don't you blame citizens for such governments? Why revolution in Iran lead to more extremist regime then shah's oppression? Why revolution in Afganistan when Najibullah communist regime was ousted lead to more extremists' Taliban coming to power? Why the moment Mubarak was ousted in Egypt radicals came to power and immediately severed their relationship with Israel and the West? Isn't this the people to blame for? Can you explain this? Again, I am not trying to stereotype but rather simply bring up facts. All my statements are supported by facts. Can you explain the facts? When Hitler came to power he was supported by the nation. He would never succeed if he did not have such support. Yes, there were people that did not support him. However, they were in minority. Same here.

[san diego 407]

Again, I am not saying that we should go to war. All I am saying is trying to explain why you cannot blame people for not automatically clicking "yes" on this poll..

[san diego 407]

Yet another question: if you go to the streets of let's say Iran or even Saudi Arabia and ask the above poll:

1) Do you like Americans?

2) Do you like Jews?

How many of the people on the streets will say "Yes"??

My guess is 1 out of 1000 for americans and 0 out of 1000 for jews...

[Golden Gate 530]

I cannot agree more with your statements. However, this is not only US that suffers from such extremism. France, Spain, UK, Israel, Russia. You name it. How can you explain this? Obviously, if extremists did not have support of the population they would not be successful. Take another prospective: Joseph Marie de Maistre said: "Each country has the government it deserves". We, the citizens of the country to blame for our government. If you put a sole blame of the extremism and oppression on the governments of the Muslim countries, why don't you blame citizens for such governments? Why revolution in Iran lead to more extremist regime then shah's oppression? Why revolution in Afganistan when Najibullah communist regime was ousted lead to more extremists' Taliban coming to power? Why the moment Mubarak was ousted in Egypt radicals came to power and immediately severed their relationship with Israel and the West? Isn't this the people to blame for? Can you explain this? Again, I am not trying to stereotype but rather simply bring up facts. All my statements are supported by facts. Can you explain the facts? When Hitler came to power he was supported by the nation. He would never succeed if he did not have such support. Yes, there were people that did not support him. However, they were in minority. Same here.

Well, when your population is oppressed for so long, it is hard for them to organize and rise up - many of the people are ignorant - and I think it is difficult for us, in America, to understand the limitations that ordinary citizens in such countries have - they just don't have the tools. I mean, we basically came to a new country and started our own government.

Well, look, we now have the Arab Spring. Let me give you the example of Morocco, again, as that is what I have a little more incite into - about 40% of the population is illiterate. The youth 25 and under are the majority now. Many have lived miserable childhoods - poverty, poor living conditions - they have accumulated a lot of frustration. Those who have degrees, many are doctors, have advanced degrees, but can't get a job, have been stymied in their livelihood - they can't get married, can't have children, can't live their own lives, and they have been given a lot of false education because of their government. They have lived in such a corrupt environment for so long, just finding their way out of such a maze will take a long time. You know, the government, after many protests this spring, promised the teachers a raise in their salary. (The average income is $400 per month. When I was there, I spent $1000 in one month just eating, renting and getting around.) They can't even afford a car. Well, they never followed through. Yet, the US always praises the King and his measures, blah, blah, blah... and in the meantime, people continue to suffer and die. If a woman gives birth, starts bleeding, she has no way to get to a hospital, and probably there is no hospital near her nor can she afford to pay. She will just die. I guess what I am saying is that the King proclaims he is a descendant of Mohammed, which I think is a bunch of bunk, but look at what he does to his people? He has a monopoly on many businesses there, and only finally that is changing a little. The change in thinking of the people will take time - even once these protests started - first many of the people just wanted to defend the king, but eventually people started coming around to the ideas of the young people. You know, they can't even read the ballots to vote, so they base their decision on the media, which is controlled by the King. Yet, that doesn't discourage me from being Muslim, only to try to understand better the difference between such a person and my beliefs. He doesn't represent my beliefs at all and never will.

You have to look at the dynamics of that area - Egypt/Israel - there is a long history. There isn't one side is right, the other is wrong. The people who have lived in Egypt, where I believe the income has been even less than in Morocco, maybe less than a $100 per month - they are much more frustrated with how things have been - and you know, Mubarak was supported by the U.S., so the people there obviously don't have good feelings about the U.S. I can't imagine that the average Egyptian has a great deal of education. Why were so many Germans so easily led by Hitler? That is a good question. We have to look at the nature of their economics at the time, what was happening to create such a vacuum that Hitler was able to gain the upper hand. Listen, I am not a scholar and there are people much more capable of providing this type of information to you, than I am. I would never justify such people coming to power who will do the same things that have already been done to the people - oppress them. However, I am just trying to understand, as you are, why such things happen, that is all, and I prefer to try not to put people into categories.

I will give you a little example of my friend, who is Palestinian. His family was removed from their home and their home was taken by Israelis. His family lives now in the West Bank. He has finally obtained a visa to get his PhD in Canada in Economics. He has bad memories of Orthodox Jews in his city (Hebron) chasing after him and throwing things at him, when he was a child, when he was doing nothing. His desire is for peace, for Palestine to develop it's economy, to live without hatred. He is a very intelligent person, and not violent, at all.

The minute he stepped off the plane in Canada, he was confronted by an airport person who asked him: When are you going back to Palestine? He explained that he had his visa for three years to study in Canada. This woman insisted: When are you going back? She was not asking for an answer, she was trying to intimidate him. He has done nothing to her. He is not a supporter of Hamas, he does not believe in terrorism. However, he has a much closer view of what actually happens there, than we do.

People can not deny what is happening to the Palestinians, anymore than they can deny the Holocaust. Iran, which is Persian, by the way, and it's government are fanatical. Unfortunately, you have extreme situations of war going on there and all the casualties of war It is easy to be a couch critic, as we are from here and say, well why don't they do this or that, when you aren't a part of the history or experience of these people. It is much harder to be in their situation.

I know people from Iran - they were my students. They are not fanatics. Fortunately, they were able to get out of there. I have a friend, who is Sunni Muslim in Iran. She said she is not free to practice her religion there and she is treated like a second-class citizen.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Golden Gate

[Robert&Karen 264]

If you are treated like insects by your government, maybe it is time that you install a new government. The USA did it in 1776. I think that's one of the problems, the USA wants to help but these countries are not ready for help or even prefer to be enslaved for the sake of simplicity.

When you have had enough, start a revolution and join the modern world.

[Golden Gate 530]

If you are treated like insects by your government, maybe it is time that you install a new government. The USA did it in 1776. I think that's one of the problems, the USA wants to help but these countries are not ready for help or even prefer to be enslaved for the sake of simplicity.

When you have had enough, start a revolution and join the modern world.

I think your attitude comes across condescending. They were colonized by the French, and therefore the previous generation never learned to read and write. When you are subsisting and you have so little tools, it is hard to create a revolution. By the way, the young have been revolting, but when you have little money, it is hard to revolt against a regime that has the military power to stop you. Oh, and by the way, if they set bombs to revolt, well you know, the U.S. government is right in there to help the government stop it. I am sorry, but that attitude of simply revolting like the USA did is very simplistic and not realistic in this day and age of weapons.

Oh yeah, and the US wants to help these countries - not - they are helping their government.

You are talking apples to oranges.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Golden Gate

[Robert&Karen 264]

I think your attitude comes across condescending. They were colonized by the French, and therefore the previous generation never learned to read and write. When you are subsisting and you have so little tools, it is hard to create a revolution. By the way, the young have been revolting, but when you have little money, it is hard to revolt against a regime that has the military power to stop you. Oh, and by the way, if they set bombs to revolt, well you know, the U.S. government is right in there to help the government stop it. I am sorry, but that attitude of simply revolting like the USA did is very simplistic and not realistic in this day and age of weapons.

Oh yeah, and the US wants to help these countries - not - they are helping their government.

You are talking apples to oranges.

There is apparently enough weapons for muslims to wage wars all over the world, yet you cannot wage it on your oppressors? If someone wants to fly a plane into a building, why not do it internally to free yourself rather than to start a war? Didn't you see Libya in the news these last few months, revolting against the government?

You are giving up before you even start.

[Golden Gate 530]

There is apparently enough weapons for muslims to wage wars all over the world, yet you cannot wage it on your oppressors? If someone wants to fly a plane into a building, why not do it internally to free yourself rather than to start a war? Didn't you see Libya in the news these last few months, revolting against the government?

You are giving up before you even start.

Who is giving up what? Do it internally? What does that mean? How is flying a plane into a building in Morocco going to solve their problems? Why don't you go there and help these people do these things you think are the key to their problems?

Edited October 6, 2011 by Golden Gate

[Robert&Karen 264]

Who is giving up what? Do it internally? What does that mean? How is flying a plane into a building in Morocco going to solve their problems? Why don't you go there and help these people do these things you think are the key to their problems?

-Who is giving up what? Muslims who apparently want to be free are not fighting for it, so they are either giving up or don't care to be free.

-Internally, yes, like when the US went into Iraq and tore down Saddam's statue, why did WE have to do it? Can't you handle your own affairs?

-I was not specifying Morocco but the muslim attitude of those wanting peace and freedom that you say exist somewhere.

-I have been there. I am in the Army and went through two deployments back to back from 2005 to 2008. Why don't YOU pick up a rifle?

[Golden Gate 530]

-Who is giving up what? Muslims who apparently want to be free are not fighting for it, so they are either giving up or don't care to be free.

-Internally, yes, like when the US went into Iraq and tore down Saddam's statue, why did WE have to do it? Can't you handle your own affairs?

-I was not specifying Morocco but the muslim attitude of those wanting peace and freedom that you say exist somewhere.

-I have been there. I am in the Army and went through two deployments back to back from 2005 to 2008. Why don't YOU pick up a rifle?

Good for you. That was your choice. It was the choice of the US to go to Iraq. I am tired of this conversation. There will never be any resolution as far as I see, because I feel that you think picking up arms is the solution. I don't agree with that. Muslims are standing up and fighting - that is why there is the Arab Spring.

[Robert&Karen 264]

Good for you. That was your choice. It was the choice of the US to go to Iraq. I am tired of this conversation. There will never be any resolution as far as I see, because I feel that you think picking up arms is the solution. I don't agree with that. Muslims are standing up and fighting - that is why there is the Arab Spring.

Then it's about freakin' time.