Thailand Specifi K1 question

[Steve and Poy 4]

I get the impression that tiny differences can create problems so I thought I'd ask this simple question:

The K1, Part B (Information about Alien Fiance) Line 10, Name of Prior Spouse and Date marriage ended.

There was no recording of the marriage, there was no "Monk wedding," simply two people who moved in together, had a child, and then, as is common in Thailand the male moved on to another woman who he now lives with and who has had a child.

In Thailand, if I understand the law, since the marriage was not recorded, well, then there is no "spouse."

On the other hand, to not put down the name of the child's father might be construed as misleading.

Also, there is no real "date marriage ended" as there is with my prior marriage which has a date of divorce decree. In her case, he simply left and over time it became apparent to her that their relationship ended.

For those in the know about Thailand, would you please suggest how to best fill this out, to minimize any future problem. Fill in the father's name? Put a month/year or year, since there was no specific date that the prior marriage ended.

Thanks

[Kang Lang 7]

sawasdee ka snp...

welcome and good luck on your journey. there is nothing to fill out in terms of marriage for your fiancee. she was not married. when you get her cenomar it will reflect as such. as for her child's father you will of course name him as such. it's not an uncommon thing in thailand to have children outside of a paper marriage. hopefully that makes sense and helps for your petition.

good luck!

Edited July 14, 2011 by Kang Lang

[Ning 619]

I get the impression that tiny differences can create problems so I thought I'd ask this simple question:

The K1, Part B (Information about Alien Fiance) Line 10, Name of Prior Spouse and Date marriage ended.

There was no recording of the marriage, there was no "Monk wedding," simply two people who moved in together, had a child, and then, as is common in Thailand the male moved on to another woman who he now lives with and who has had a child.

In Thailand, if I understand the law, since the marriage was not recorded, well, then there is no "spouse."

On the other hand, to not put down the name of the child's father might be construed as misleading.

Also, there is no real "date marriage ended" as there is with my prior marriage which has a date of divorce decree. In her case, he simply left and over time it became apparent to her that their relationship ended.

For those in the know about Thailand, would you please suggest how to best fill this out, to minimize any future problem. Fill in the father's name? Put a month/year or year, since there was no specific date that the prior marriage ended.

Thanks

Many times the women dont want to marry legally because the laws then allow the man to access she & her families property. Also because Thai men are famous or infamous for expecting it to be acceptable to have these G friends.

I assume you will want to bring her child to the USA with her or at a later date ( to follow ). The child must have a B C which will indicate the fathers name.

The fathers name will need to be on the form. They understand there was no marrige in most of these cases. I suggest using the date she knows that he left as the end date.

The embassy will later require a document signed by the father that will allow the child to immigrate. The end of relationship date may become important at that time.

[pushbrk 12,093]

I get the impression that tiny differences can create problems so I thought I'd ask this simple question:

The K1, Part B (Information about Alien Fiance) Line 10, Name of Prior Spouse and Date marriage ended.

There was no recording of the marriage, there was no "Monk wedding," simply two people who moved in together, had a child, and then, as is common in Thailand the male moved on to another woman who he now lives with and who has had a child.

In Thailand, if I understand the law, since the marriage was not recorded, well, then there is no "spouse."

On the other hand, to not put down the name of the child's father might be construed as misleading.

Also, there is no real "date marriage ended" as there is with my prior marriage which has a date of divorce decree. In her case, he simply left and over time it became apparent to her that their relationship ended.

For those in the know about Thailand, would you please suggest how to best fill this out, to minimize any future problem. Fill in the father's name? Put a month/year or year, since there was no specific date that the prior marriage ended.

Thanks

K1 is a visa. You are asking about a section of the petition for fiancee. There is no prior spouse. The name of the child's father is not asked for on the petition. It will be asked for on a later visa application(s). Just answer it accurately. The parents were not married. Simple stuff when you simply focus on answering direct questions truthfully.

[Virginian61 1]

The question on the form is only about prior marriages. If they were not married, just living together, it's the same as in the states. So saying no prior marriages would be the honest answer.

Child custody is another thing. That relies on Thai law. I think Ning is the expert on that.

[Ning 619]

The question on the form is only about prior marriages. If they were not married, just living together, it's the same as in the states. So saying no prior marriages would be the honest answer.

Child custody is another thing. That relies on Thai law. I think Ning is the expert on that.

I thought the O P was more familer with the form than I am so the questions was valid about the need for the fathers name. I was wrong on that point. Of course you & the other members are correct in your responces.

To be clear about the matter of child custody in Thailand I would offer some info. In Thailand we have custody laws simlar to the USA. However for immigration purposes the legal custody of the child dictated by a Thai court doesnt matter to the embassy. They follow American laws, policies & procedures. This has become paramount in these visa situations. I think the Elian Gonzalas & Haiti events caused a change in the way these matters are handled but I am not certian about that.

[Steve and Poy 4]

Thank you for your answers.

Though a child is involved here, at this time the mother wishes to leave the child with her parents and continue the child's schooling in Thailand, at least for the first few years of our relationship, intending to go back to Thailand for a month or two, once a year (or twice a year for a month each time, if that suits her more).

Though that might seem anathema to Western thought about proper parent/child relationships, my fiancee's birth sister has done this for many years while she is off working in another country, so a sort of precedent has been set. Also, some years back my fiancee did the same for a few years.

Further, the child, who is ten seems comfortable with the arrangement. The child's birth father as well as the parents are ok with this also. So there is no legal issue to worry about.

I find the mother/child relationship interesting to observe actually, since being apart for a few years earlier has changed the child-parent relationship in a subtle and interesting way. The child appears (to my Western point of view, of course) to relate to the mother as though she was a significantly older sister, and less as a mother figure.

[Ning 619]

Thank you for your answers.

Though a child is involved here, at this time the mother wishes to leave the child with her parents and continue the child's schooling in Thailand, at least for the first few years of our relationship, intending to go back to Thailand for a month or two, once a year (or twice a year for a month each time, if that suits her more).

Though that might seem anathema to Western thought about proper parent/child relationships, my fiancee's birth sister has done this for many years while she is off working in another country, so a sort of precedent has been set. Also, some years back my fiancee did the same for a few years.

Further, the child, who is ten seems comfortable with the arrangement. The child's birth father as well as the parents are ok with this also. So there is no legal issue to worry about.

I find the mother/child relationship interesting to observe actually, since being apart for a few years earlier has changed the child-parent relationship in a subtle and interesting way. The child appears (to my Western point of view, of course) to relate to the mother as though she was a significantly older sister, and less as a mother figure.

You have done well to understand how these things can work in Thailand. Its up to each couple to determin what is best now & in the future as these relationships evolve. Some Thais feel its good insurance to leave the children in case the new life isnt what they hoped or percieved it would be.

In my opinion based on my own experiances it is a mistake to think a child should be educated in Thailand rather than here. I thought the same but my husband talked me into bringing my daughter here to be educated. I cant tell you how much this has meant to me as a mother & to our family here. It would have been a huge mistake to leave her there & she has become an excellent student.

Children grow up accepting a situation that is very different than in American. You are also correct in the observation of how the child relates to the mother as a sister. So many of us are raised by our grandparents from a very young age we do feel exactly as you say. I was determined not to let this happen to me as a mother.

A friend is in Thailand visiting her daughter right now. At 16 the daughter now wants to come to the USA to live with her mother. After 3 years of separation this has proven to be almost impossible to get done.

[Steve and Poy 4]

Children grow up accepting a situation that is very different than in American. You are also correct in the observation of how the child relates to the mother as a sister. So many of us are raised by our grandparents from a very young age we do feel exactly as you say. I was determined not to let this happen to me as a mother.

A friend is in Thailand visiting her daughter right now. At 16 the daughter now wants to come to the USA to live with her mother. After 3 years of separation this has proven to be almost impossible to get done.

What I sense here is that you believe that such an arrangement is a negative one. I'm curious, do you believe that it's harmful? I suspect that it is nowhere near as common as is in the Philippines with so many working overseas, yet there I've never heard much negativity.

Why would, after three years of partly living in America and visiting at least annually now create an impossible situation? My guess is that the birth father is denying permission. It seems so odd that American law, in each state looks to the desires of the child first, and yet it seems that in immigration cases, the entire concept of what is best for the child first falls by the wayside.

I'm surprised that there have not been challenges in Federal Court since the Embassy's point of view is not shared by any tenant of American law. There is no state (that I know of) where one parent can absolutely deny where the child goes without investigation into what is best for the child. This being said though, the doctrine of Sovereign Immunity may preclude such actions, essentially placing the "people" at the Embassy in the position of a demigod.

I think that you are correct, and that much of this is simply a knee jerk over-reaction from the Haitian situation resulting in an ostrich like "head in the sand," "if we ignore it, it'll go away," mentality. It's sad because it flies in the face of American law and in the face of Thai law. But sad or not, the decision for a mother to separate from the child will commonly go this way due to the perception (which I think is true, though it is changing slowly) that a woman has more opportunity in America.

My fiancee who is 38 simply cannot fathom that she could get a job as a clerk without discrimination due to her age. In Thailand most places will not hire even a 35 year old woman, they are simply perceived as "too old," yet if that sort of discrimination exists in America it is a tiny fraction of what exists in Thailand or the Philippines.

I can see that the concept of financial security for the child in a Thai mind can easily override the Western concept that mother and child must live together. Many Westerners simply cannot fathom how deeply economic security is of over-riding concern. I find it refreshing actually. While Westerners look for wealth for wealth's sake, a Thai women often looks at wealth simply as a tool for the survival of her family. Though I see this changing too, and find it sad to see how so many Thais put so much emphasis upon owning a nice car even if they really cannot afford it.

Thailand to me seems to be disconnected with its history but that is to be expected since almost all Thai people over the age of 50 or 60 came from agrarian origins. It seems that the only common historical thread is Buddhism, and though that runs deeply in the Buddhist culture it seems to be degrading into a cultural veneer.

When in Chiang Mai, I asked numerous people and was rather astounded that not a single one had ever heard of the story of Queen Suriyothai the wife of King Maha Chakraphat of Ayutthaya who reigned from 1549 to 1569 (2111 to 2112 B.E.) She went to battle on a war elephant against the invading Burmese and essentially sacrificed herself to protect her husband, the King.

(Note: There exists only three lines of writing that chronicles the story so the exact story is not known, and is certainly not what is portrayed in the popular Thai movie which apparently was never very popular. To me that seems like an American that cannot telly you who George Washington, or Abraham Lincon was, or what the Battle of the Alamo, or the Boston Tea Party was.)

I would imagine that in two more years the child no longer is a child and then can come to live with the mother. I've seen women who have given up their birth child at birth reconnect later in life when the child reaches the age of majority and have seen good relationships form even after a lifetime of absence. Today when mother and child can communicate so easily and for free, over the internet, this throws an entirely new tool into the situation. Frankly, if I were the birth parent denying permission for the 16 year old who wanted to go and live with the mother, I would suspect that my relationship with the child would decay seriously.

Thai children may accept the situation with a smile, but underneath that famous smile can stew an enormous amount of resentment. Still, it seems that the Thai male often is "all-knowing" (i.e. "knows what's best). From what I have seen, as in the Philippines, though the father is the head of the house, often the society is actually more matriarchal. Further if the birth father is denying permission to this 16 year old girl to go and live with the mother, I would suspect that, for whatever reason, that there is familial pressure behind his decision, perhaps a possessive grandmother?

Sorry for being so wordy, but Thai culture fascinates me.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Steve and Poy

[pushbrk 12,093]

It seems so odd that American law, in each state looks to the desires of the child first, and yet it seems that in immigration cases, the entire concept of what is best for the child first falls by the wayside.

US Consular Officers must abide by the laws of the country in which they operated, with regard to child custody. They don't get to decide what's best for the child. They simply obey the law. If the non-custodial parent has rights in Thailand, US Consular officers have no authority or power to ignore or circumvent those rights. What you need to know is what Thailand law says about the father's rights in this case.

[Adi&Pim 6]

I get the impression that tiny differences can create problems so I thought I'd ask this simple question:

The K1, Part B (Information about Alien Fiance) Line 10, Name of Prior Spouse and Date marriage ended.

There was no recording of the marriage, there was no "Monk wedding," simply two people who moved in together, had a child, and then, as is common in Thailand the male moved on to another woman who he now lives with and who has had a child.

In Thailand, if I understand the law, since the marriage was not recorded, well, then there is no "spouse."

On the other hand, to not put down the name of the child's father might be construed as misleading.

Also, there is no real "date marriage ended" as there is with my prior marriage which has a date of divorce decree. In her case, he simply left and over time it became apparent to her that their relationship ended.

For those in the know about Thailand, would you please suggest how to best fill this out, to minimize any future problem. Fill in the father's name? Put a month/year or year, since there was no specific date that the prior marriage ended.

Thanks

My cas is similar.

I sent out a letter (with all other documents) that I know about her doughter and thatcurrently she will stay with her grandmother in Thailand.

The reason for the letter is that no one thinks she is hiding something from me (I also added pictures of all of us together).