Russia demands punishment for Ukrainian nationalists

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20110510/163958434.html

Moscow said on Tuesday it expected Kiev to punish the Ukrainian nationalists who disrupted Victory Day celebrations in Lvov and attacked Russian diplomats.

Members of the Ukrainian Svoboda (Freedom) nationalist organization on May 9 engaged in a brawl with WWII veterans, tore and burnt Soviet flags, and trod on a wreath that the Russian consul general in Lvov, Oleg Astakhov, planned to lay at the tombs of Soviet soldiers who died while liberating Ukraine from Nazi Germany.

Ukrainian nationalists claim that Ukraine suffered identically from both Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Soviet Union.

"We expect that those guilty will be found by local law enforcement agencies and receive the punishment that they deserve, and that similar situations will be excluded from the practice of bilateral relations," Russian Foreign Ministry's spokesman Alexander Lukashevich said.

"It is a crude violation of basic human rights, including those stipulated by the European Human Rights Convention," the official said.

Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych warned nationalists on Monday against attempts to sow discord in society and said that the government would "respond" to such actions.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

A Victory Day Parade in Lviv...lol. Not a bright move imo. This reminds me of the time that KGB/FSB agent Patriarch Kiril went to speak in Lviv and the people rioted in the streets. He needed extra police protection just to make it to the airport. The commies butchered thousands in Lviv in the most brutal ways imaginable and they wonder why they aren't liked here?

Edited May 11, 2011 by Why_Me

[Ban Hammer 12,836]

engaged in a brawl with WWII veterans

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

It was a Russian article so it was full of ####### as usual. There might have been a handful of WW2 vets there if even that. A lot of former Soviet solders who were in the army well after the war go to these events.

Just a little background. When the Soviets learned that the Germans were just a few days march outside of Lviv they took it upon themselves to butcher over 4000 people. From bayoneting them in the stomach to throwing hand grenades in over packed cells were they kept the so called "political prisoners". When they started to run out of bullets they told the ones left alive that they could leave. As soon as they marched them outside of the prison walls they machine gunned them down with a tanks.

A lot of those peeps that bit it had relatives who fought against the Soviets... OUN.

[Blake and Jeanie 4]

it's none of our business to be the judges for anybody...ANYBODY

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

it's none of our business to be the judges for anybody...ANYBODY

I'm not understanding that post of yours. What do you mean by it?

[ONA 133]

A lot of Ukrainian people are ashamed of what happened. A lot of people from Lviv are ashamed too. None of them supports the Nazi party called "Svoboda" though.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Svoboda is a nut case party who's support doesn't reach outside of Galacia.

The part of that article I posted that got me was this...; "planned to lay at the tombs of Soviet soldiers who died while liberating Ukraine from Nazi Germany."

There was no "Liberating" going on. It was one form of occupation being removed for another. That's not "Liberating" it's "Occupying".

[ONA 133]

Svoboda is a nut case party who's support doesn't reach outside of Galacia.

The part of that article I posted that got me was this...; "planned to lay at the tombs of Soviet soldiers who died while liberating Ukraine from Nazi Germany."

There was no "Liberating" going on. It was one form of occupation being removed for another. That's not "Liberating" it's "Occupying".

You can call it whatever you want. But if those people didn't fight back then, people in Lviv might be Nazi's slaves right now... When I say slaves, I don't mean deprived of some kind of freedom, I actually mean slaves.

And they did not have any right to offend those old people, who have lived in Lviv their whole life and who fought not for Soviet government, but to save their own lives and lives of those little idiots, who want to play Nazis nowadays.

[eekee 182]

What do you think "fighting against the Soviets" means? Anti-Russian Ukrainians spin it differently, and Belarusians abroad do as well--I don't know much about anti-Russian sentiment within Belarus, just Belarusian-Americans--but when it comes down to it, well, that's collaboration.

My mom frames it as both sides wanting to kill them so what do you do so your family survives, but there's no real way to sugarcoat it. Our parish priest was deported from the US in the 80s and sent to Germany (where they were in DP camps), yet my mom is named after my grandmother's best friend who was shot by Nazis while pregnant. It's a very complicated subject, I think.

Edited May 11, 2011 by eekee

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

You can call it whatever you want. But if those people didn't fight back then, people in Lviv might be Nazi's slaves right now... When I say slaves, I don't mean deprived of some kind of freedom, I actually mean slaves.

And they did not have any right to offend those old people, who have lived in Lviv their whole life and who fought not for Soviet government, but to save their own lives and lives of those little idiots, who want to play Nazis nowadays.

Instead those people became Soviet slaves. And not many people from Lviv sided with the Soviets. They fought with the Germans, and then the proceeded to fight against the Germans, and then fought both the Germans and Soviets at the same time.

But I agree that they shouldn't have done what they did with the Victory Day celebration. On the other hand Lviv might not be such a good choice to have such a celebration. Further east would make more sense imo.

What do you think "fighting against the Soviets" means? Anti-Russian Ukrainians spin it differently, and Belarusians abroad do as well--I don't know much about anti-Russian sentiment within Belarus, just Belarusian-Americans--but when it comes down to it, well, that's collaboration.

My mom frames it as both sides wanting to kill them so what do you do so your family survives, but there's no real way to sugarcoat it. Our parish priest was deported from the US in the 80s and sent to Germany (where they were in DP camps), yet my mom is named after my grandmother's best friend who was shot by Nazis while pregnant. It's a very complicated subject, I think.

Very complicated. But the thing here is revision of history. Two genocidal maniacs (Hitler and Stalin), and both ally's and then after 1941 became enemy's.

It's when people change the meaning of "Occupiers" to "Liberators" is when the revision of history takes over. It's 2011 and there's no reason to lie about anything anymore. It's time to be honest and tell the truth. Occupation is Occupation and not Liberation. Liberators ...Liberate, and Occupiers ...Occupy. That much is black and white...with no grey area.

[eekee 182]

I am pretty sure that Victory Day celebrations are all across the FSU with the exception of maybe the Baltics. It wouldn't just be a celebration in Lviv; it'd be a celebration in every city in Ukraine.

But I prefer Soviets to Nazis in any case.

Edited May 11, 2011 by eekee

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I am pretty sure that Victory Day celebrations are all across the FSU with the exception of maybe the Baltics. It wouldn't just be a celebration in Lviv; it'd be a celebration in every city in Ukraine.

But I prefer Soviets to Nazis in any case.

If it were only that simple. In case you missed it, the people of Western Ukraine fought against the Soviets, not with them. Western Ukraine was seeking independence from Poland, then later the Soviets, then the Germans, and then the Soviets again. They fought pretty much everybody for the fact they are an independent minded people who don't want to be anyones wh0res. They just want to be Ukrainians who speak and write Ukrainian in an independent Ukraine.

Now your mom is Belarusian yes ? Ask your mom why most Belarusians living in Belarus don't speak Belarusian anymore but speak Russian instead. Do you think Belarusians and Ukrainians willingly gave up their language, history and heritage ? Not hardly.

They weren't allowed to speak Belarusian at work, school, and in the government for many a year. Same with Ukraine. It would be the equivalent if the Chinese were to take over the US and ban English.

Many Ukrainians and Belarusians first saw the Germans as liberators. It wasn't until the SS became involved that they learned what the NAZI's were all about. But before the SS they wanted the Russians out so bad they could taste it. Millions of Ukrainians died because of the Soviets. Starvation, deportation, etc... So yes, not a lot of Western Ukrainians see the Soviets as liberators. They only remember them as the ones who replaced the NAZI's and then proceeded to repress them by all means possible including their religion which happens to be the Greek Orthodox Catholic Church. Those churches were taken over by the Russian Orthodox Church and they were forced to practice their religion in private. Fields, barns, forest, etc..

Some of those people witnessed their relatives and priest being strung up on tree's and skinned alive by Soviet soldiers and NKVD. Hard feelings still remain and they aren't going to go away anytime soon. It's the same with in the Baltics.

[eekee 182]

I know all of those things, Why Me. You don't need to type all that to explain to someone who grew up in a Russian-hating Belarusian family where all of the old people were sitting around waiting for the end of Communism so that they could go back to Belarus because it would be so awesome.

I am techinically Greek Orthodox but there's a Slavonic mass and I wouldn't want to go to a Greek church. "Greek Orthodox" in this case means they don't want to follow the Moscow patriarch. And also I am not sure how the churches were taken over by the Russian Orthodox Church if the Soviet state was atheist? I haven't really done much work on religion in Soviet times. I mean, yes, the ROC is an extension of the state now, but 1945 is a different story. I had thought that the Soviets, after they kicked out the Nazis, didn't allow religion. When I read weird diaspora texts that deemphasize the fact that the Germans were actually Nazis, they make a big deal about being able to worship under the Germans.

Germans also did all of those things. Watch Come and See.

Edited May 12, 2011 by eekee

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I know all of those things, Why Me. You don't need to type all that to explain to someone who grew up in a Russian-hating Belarusian family where all of the old people were sitting around waiting for the end of Communism so that they could go back to Belarus because it would be so awesome.

I am techinically Greek Orthodox but there's a Slavonic mass and I wouldn't want to go to a Greek church. "Greek Orthodox" in this case means they don't want to follow the Moscow patriarch. And also I am not sure how the churches were taken over by the Russian Orthodox Church if the Soviet state was atheist? I haven't really done much work on religion in Soviet times. I mean, yes, the ROC is an extension of the state now, but 1945 is a different story. I had thought that the Soviets, after they kicked out the Nazis, didn't allow religion. When I read weird diaspora texts that deemphasize the fact that the Germans were actually Nazis, they make a big deal about being able to worship under the Germans.

Germans also did all of those things. Watch Come and See.

I know what the Germans did. My wife lost a lot of family on her moms side in the war. Her grandma saw her mom, brother and a sister get gunned down in the camp right before the Soviets came.

On my side I had a relative taken by the Germans for slave labor. The first time we went to Europe I asked my dad why we were flying into Frankfurt and not Amsterdam and he told me about his (second uncle?), taken by the krauts and after the war married a German gal and made a family there. Granted he didn't have it near as bad as my wifes family.

The Soviets were anti religion but the were more so "pro Russian" and they knew that Western Ukrainians were deeply religious. So how better to "Russify a people" than to convert them from Catholic to Russian Orthodox. The Russians still haven't changed much in that manner. Ukraine has been trying for years now to get it's own Patriarch (which it should be allowed btw) and to break free of the KGB/FSB Russian Orthodox Church. The KGB/FSB ROC Patriarch has so far used extortion to keep the Ukrainian church from having it's own so to say.

Why do you think that every time Medvedev and/or Tsar Putin give a formal speech, or even attend a formal event that the ROC Patriarch is right there with them ? It's called "Derzheva". It's one KGB boss working with another in order to "control".

Edited May 12, 2011 by Why_Me