K-1 Social Security Disability

[jofoto10 0]

I am concerned about qualifying for the I-134 affidavit of support. I am receiving Social Security disability in the amount of $21,000 per year, I have been for several years now. I have no other income and own nothing. My questions are: will the US. Embassy in Bangkok view me as a public charge and refuse our petition, and might Bangkok not consider or refuse a co-sponsorship? My sister and husband may be willing to co-sponsor us, they own the home where we will be living, have no debt, and have a very good retirement income. They have written a personal letter supporting our life with them. Please help.

Thank you for your time. Joseph & Sukanda

Service Center: California Service Center

Consulate: Bangkok, Thailand

I-129F Sent: 2010-05-25

I-129F NOA1: 2010-06-01

I-129F NOA2: 2010-10-29

[payxibka 10,044]

I am concerned about qualifying for the I-134 affidavit of support. I am receiving Social Security disability in the amount of $21,000 per year, I have been for several years now. I have no other income and own nothing. My questions are: will the US. Embassy in Bangkok view me as a public charge and refuse our petition, and might Bangkok not consider or refuse a co-sponsorship? My sister and husband may be willing to co-sponsor us, they own the home where we will be living, have no debt, and have a very good retirement income. They have written a personal letter supporting our life with them. Please help.

Thank you for your time. Joseph & Sukanda

Service Center: California Service Center

Consulate: Bangkok, Thailand

I-129F Sent: 2010-05-25

I-129F NOA1: 2010-06-01

I-129F NOA2: 2010-10-29

The Consulate will not view you as a public charge but will utilize information provided by you to make a decision whether they believe the ALIEN could become a public charge. BKK does NOT accept CO sponsorships. This is specifically mentioned on the BKK website.

moving to consulate forum

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

I am concerned about qualifying for the I-134 affidavit of support. I am receiving Social Security disability in the amount of $21,000 per year, I have been for several years now. I have no other income and own nothing. My questions are: will the US. Embassy in Bangkok view me as a public charge and refuse our petition, and might Bangkok not consider or refuse a co-sponsorship? My sister and husband may be willing to co-sponsor us, they own the home where we will be living, have no debt, and have a very good retirement income. They have written a personal letter supporting our life with them. Please help.

Thank you for your time. Joseph & Sukanda

Service Center: California Service Center

Consulate: Bangkok, Thailand

I-129F Sent: 2010-05-25

I-129F NOA1: 2010-06-01

I-129F NOA2: 2010-10-29

It's hard to say. If you're receiving SSDI and not SSI then it's not a means tested benefit. It's supposed to be qualifying income for an affidavit of support. However, I've seen people post on VJ that their affidavits weren't accepted as sufficient because the consular officer or immigration officer wasn't willing to consider the SSDI income because it wasn't taxable. People have posted that this has happened with both the I-134 at the consulate, and the I-864 at USCIS.

The risk of an affidavit being denied as insufficient is higher with an I-134 than with an I-864, mainly because the consular officer has a lot more discretion. They can look only at the evidence they want to look at. If they see insufficient income on the most recent tax return, and no evidence of higher current income or substantial assets, that's enough reason for them to deny the affidavit.

The embassy in Bangkok is not going to view you as a public charge, but they may deny your affidavit as insufficient because your taxable income (line 22 on the 1040) isn't high enough, and you have no assets. I'm pretty sure the consulate in Bangkok doesn't accept joint sponsors with a K visa. If that's the case then you might have to get married since they can't refuse a joint sponsor with an I-864.

[jofoto10 0]

The Consulate will not view you as a public charge but will utilize information provided by you to make a decision whether they believe the ALIEN could become a public charge. BKK does NOT accept CO sponsorships. This is specifically mentioned on the BKK website.

moving to consulate forum

Thank you for moving my questions to the proper place on the forum. Would you advise me on what information I could provide the Consulate with to get my fiancee approved? She is 35 years old in good health and is a hard worker. We have been working on her family farm for the last 3 years, her English is difficult to understand, she has little concept of life in the USA and no real education or job skills. Our plan has been to enroll her in English classes and beauty school so that she can acquire a license to be a hairdresser and manicurist. Do you know of anything significant that we could do to demonstrate that she would not become a public charge, given the short time that we have left before the interview? Thank you for your time and consideration.

[jofoto10 0]

It's hard to say. If you're receiving SSDI and not SSI then it's not a means tested benefit. It's supposed to be qualifying income for an affidavit of support. However, I've seen people post on VJ that their affidavits weren't accepted as sufficient because the consular officer or immigration officer wasn't willing to consider the SSDI income because it wasn't taxable. People have posted that this has happened with both the I-134 at the consulate, and the I-864 at USCIS.

The risk of an affidavit being denied as insufficient is higher with an I-134 than with an I-864, mainly because the consular officer has a lot more discretion. They can look only at the evidence they want to look at. If they see insufficient income on the most recent tax return, and no evidence of higher current income or substantial assets, that's enough reason for them to deny the affidavit.

The embassy in Bangkok is not going to view you as a public charge, but they may deny your affidavit as insufficient because your taxable income (line 22 on the 1040) isn't high enough, and you have no assets. I'm pretty sure the consulate in Bangkok doesn't accept joint sponsors with a K visa. If that's the case then you might have to get married since they can't refuse a joint sponsor with an I-864.

Thank you for your thoughtful response. USCIS has already approved our petition and forwarded it to NVC, if we were to marry now here in Bangkok, would we have to re-apply with the USCIS? To date I have not been asked to supply them with the I-134 or the I-864, does the request come in one of the packets?

Would you consider my reply to the post from payxibka and reply to it?

It seems from what I have read so far on VJ that the Consulates rulings are varied from different locations and their attitude. I recently read on VJ "some are bastards and some are easy". I considered an appeal when we were denied a tourist visa 5 years ago until I read that you could re-apply but the Consulate's decision is final. Is this true with the K-1 visa petition as well? Do you have any advice on anything that we could do to improve our chances of aproval?

Again, thank you for your consideration. Joseph & Sukanda.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Thank you for your thoughtful response. USCIS has already approved our petition and forwarded it to NVC, if we were to marry now here in Bangkok, would we have to re-apply with the USCIS? To date I have not been asked to supply them with the I-134 or the I-864, does the request come in one of the packets?

If you marry then the K1 visa petition becomes invalid. A K1 visa is only for an unmarried fiancee of a US citizen. Yes, you would have to submit a new petition to USCIS, this time for a CR1 visa.

She will have to submit an I-134 at the interview. Both packets from the consulate usually describe this requirement. You must fill out the I-134 with your personal information, your financial information, and you must sign it. You must also include evidence to validate the income and assets claims you make on the I-134. At a minimum, most consulates require the most recent year's tax return, or an IRS transcript of that tax return. Some will ask for three years of tax returns or transcripts. Some will ask for pay stubs or letters of employment. If you declare any assets that you wish to use to offset a shortage of income then you must also provide proof you own the assets, and proof of their value.

Would you consider my reply to the post from payxibka and reply to it?

Ok, the consulate is allowed to consider the health, age, education, and work history of the immigrant when making the public charge determination. However, they don't generally ask for any documentation or evidence of those things beyond the information on the forms she'll be required to submit. What they do insist on is a financially sufficient affidavit of support. Since you signed the petition, you must submit an affidavit of support. Some consulates will accept a joint sponsor; e.g., someone else who will also submit an affidavit of support if your income/assets aren't enough to qualify. However, the consulate in Bangkok usually does not accept joint sponsors for K visas.

It seems from what I have read so far on VJ that the Consulates rulings are varied from different locations and their attitude. I recently read on VJ "some are bastards and some are easy". I considered an appeal when we were denied a tourist visa 5 years ago until I read that you could re-apply but the Consulate's decision is final. Is this true with the K-1 visa petition as well? Do you have any advice on anything that we could do to improve our chances of aproval?

Again, thank you for your consideration. Joseph & Sukanda.

With a tourist visa, you are dealing only with the consulate and the Department of State. With a K visa, you are dealing with two government agencies - USCIS and a US consulate, and two departments of the government - Department of State and Department of Homeland Security. This is because a K visa ends with an alien immigrating to the US, whereas a tourist visa does not. Each agency has it's own role to play in this process. USCIS has complete authority over the approval of the petition. The consulate has complete authority over the approval of the visa. This separation of authority means that USCIS cannot compel the consulate to issue a visa, and the consulate cannot compel USCIS to revoke the approval of the petition.

And therein lies the quandary...

The consulate can certainly deny the visa, but then they're left with an approved petition which apparently gives the beneficiary the opportunity to apply for a visa. In order to resolve this, the consulate sends the petition back to USCIS with a recommendation that the approval be revoked. The petition is returned to the USCIS service center that originally approved it. Each service center has it's own tactic, which we won't go into detail here. You won't need that information unless your fiancee is denied a visa. You may or may not get a chance to rebut the consular officers accusations with USCIS. It's not really an appeal, but more of a last ditch effort to stop USCIS from revoking the approval of the petition. Revoking the approval of the petition is generally a bad thing. It usually results in your fiancee being considered guilty of fraud, which will make it substantially more difficult to get a visa in the future. If your fiancee's visa is denied then come back here and you'll get advice on your options moving forward.

Much of what you could have done to improve your chances would need to have been done before you sent the petition. At high fraud consulates (I believe Bangkok qualifies here) the consular officers put a LOT of weight on the "bona fides" of the relationship. Much of the information they get about this comes from reviewing the documents they receive before the interview starts. This is why people frequently recommend that you 'frontload' your petition with evidence to help bolster your case about your relationship or address anything the consular officer might consider to be a red flag (these vary from one consulate to another). For example, if you only made one trip to visit your fiancee before filing the petition, but made two more trips since then, there's not much you can do before the interview to make the consular officer aware of the additional trips. Fixing something like this in advance would have required you to wait until you'd made a couple more trips before sending your petition.

Ok, so you can't change now what is included in your petition package. You just need to know what a consular officer in Bangkok considers to be the important elements of a 'bonafide relationship', compare your relationship with those requirements (in light of what will be apparent to the consular officer when reading your petition package), prepare your fiancee to provide the consular officer with answers to questions about your relationship, and just hope the consular officer gives her a chance to explain any shortcomings at the interview.

Some time spent in the Asia: East and Pacific regional forum will help you understand what the consular officers in Bangkok consider to be important factors in a relationship.

It also wouldn't hurt if you sent an email to the consulate and asked if they will consider SSDI as qualifying income with an I-134 for a K visa. They may dodge your question with "discretion of the consular officer", but it's worth a shot. It's not really the sort of thing they would need to keep to themselves as a tool to root out fraud.

[jofoto10 0]

If you marry then the K1 visa petition becomes invalid. A K1 visa is only for an unmarried fiancee of a US citizen. Yes, you would have to submit a new petition to USCIS, this time for a CR1 visa.

She will have to submit an I-134 at the interview. Both packets from the consulate usually describe this requirement. You must fill out the I-134 with your personal information, your financial information, and you must sign it. You must also include evidence to validate the income and assets claims you make on the I-134. At a minimum, most consulates require the most recent year's tax return, or an IRS transcript of that tax return. Some will ask for three years of tax returns or transcripts. Some will ask for pay stubs or letters of employment. If you declare any assets that you wish to use to offset a shortage of income then you must also provide proof you own the assets, and proof of their value.

Ok, the consulate is allowed to consider the health, age, education, and work history of the immigrant when making the public charge determination. However, they don't generally ask for any documentation or evidence of those things beyond the information on the forms she'll be required to submit. What they do insist on is a financially sufficient affidavit of support. Since you signed the petition, you must submit an affidavit of support. Some consulates will accept a joint sponsor; e.g., someone else who will also submit an affidavit of support if your income/assets aren't enough to qualify. However, the consulate in Bangkok usually does not accept joint sponsors for K visas.

With a tourist visa, you are dealing only with the consulate and the Department of State. With a K visa, you are dealing with two government agencies - USCIS and a US consulate, and two departments of the government - Department of State and Department of Homeland Security. This is because a K visa ends with an alien immigrating to the US, whereas a tourist visa does not. Each agency has it's own role to play in this process. USCIS has complete authority over the approval of the petition. The consulate has complete authority over the approval of the visa. This separation of authority means that USCIS cannot compel the consulate to issue a visa, and the consulate cannot compel USCIS to revoke the approval of the petition.

And therein lies the quandary...

The consulate can certainly deny the visa, but then they're left with an approved petition which apparently gives the beneficiary the opportunity to apply for a visa. In order to resolve this, the consulate sends the petition back to USCIS with a recommendation that the approval be revoked. The petition is returned to the USCIS service center that originally approved it. Each service center has it's own tactic, which we won't go into detail here. You won't need that information unless your fiancee is denied a visa. You may or may not get a chance to rebut the consular officers accusations with USCIS. It's not really an appeal, but more of a last ditch effort to stop USCIS from revoking the approval of the petition. Revoking the approval of the petition is generally a bad thing. It usually results in your fiancee being considered guilty of fraud, which will make it substantially more difficult to get a visa in the future. If your fiancee's visa is denied then come back here and you'll get advice on your options moving forward.

Much of what you could have done to improve your chances would need to have been done before you sent the petition. At high fraud consulates (I believe Bangkok qualifies here) the consular officers put a LOT of weight on the "bona fides" of the relationship. Much of the information they get about this comes from reviewing the documents they receive before the interview starts. This is why people frequently recommend that you 'frontload' your petition with evidence to help bolster your case about your relationship or address anything the consular officer might consider to be a red flag (these vary from one consulate to another). For example, if you only made one trip to visit your fiancee before filing the petition, but made two more trips since then, there's not much you can do before the interview to make the consular officer aware of the additional trips. Fixing something like this in advance would have required you to wait until you'd made a couple more trips before sending your petition.

Ok, so you can't change now what is included in your petition package. You just need to know what a consular officer in Bangkok considers to be the important elements of a 'bonafide relationship', compare your relationship with those requirements (in light of what will be apparent to the consular officer when reading your petition package), prepare your fiancee to provide the consular officer with answers to questions about your relationship, and just hope the consular officer gives her a chance to explain any shortcomings at the interview.

Some time spent in the Asia: East and Pacific regional forum will help you understand what the consular officers in Bangkok consider to be important factors in a relationship.

It also wouldn't hurt if you sent an email to the consulate and asked if they will consider SSDI as qualifying income with an I-134 for a K visa. They may dodge your question with "discretion of the consular officer", but it's worth a shot. It's not really the sort of thing they would need to keep to themselves as a tool to root out fraud.

Thank you for your reply, it is so thoughtful of you to give me such detailed and informed information, I do very much appreciate your time and energy.

I understand that our only option at this point is for me to submit the I-134 with my tax returns and see if they accept the SSDI as income.

I think I covered the question of a 'bonafide relationship' in our I-129F application with pictures of, O-A visa stamps in my passport, and photos of us together starting in 2003. I mentioned in that statement, attached to the I-129F, that we were denied a tourist visa for Sukanda in 2004. I still have a letter on my company letterhead, of my sponsorship of her proposed trip, and a letter from her employer at the time.

Will the consulate notify us if the petition has been sent back to USCIS with a recommendation that their approval be revoked?

If we have met the relationship requirements and our petition is revoked by USCIS, would it then be an issue of insufficient income not fraud? I ask this question because I am wondering if we submit a new petition to USCIS for a CR1 visa, if it would then be a matter of having a co-sponsor to obtain the visa?

I will email the consulate asking if they consider SSDI as qualifying income with an I-134 for a K visa. I will post the answer upon their reply.

Again, thank you. Joseph

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Will the consulate notify us if the petition has been sent back to USCIS with a recommendation that their approval be revoked?

If we have met the relationship requirements and our petition is revoked by USCIS, would it then be an issue of insufficient income not fraud? I ask this question because I am wondering if we submit a new petition to USCIS for a CR1 visa, if it would then be a matter of having a co-sponsor to obtain the visa?

I will email the consulate asking if they consider SSDI as qualifying income with an I-134 for a K visa. I will post the answer upon their reply.

Again, thank you. Joseph

Yes, the consulate will tell you if the petition is being sent back to USCIS. If the visa is denied at the interview then your fiancee will have the notice in her hand when she leaves.

If the petition approval is revoked by USCIS then everything depends on which section of the INA was cited by the consular officer when the petition was returned. If they cite only section 212(a)(4) for the public charge requirement, then there would be no finding of fraud. If they cite section 212(a)(6)(c ) for misrepresentation, then there may be a finding of fraud. When a consular officer denies a visa because they're just not convinced that the relationship is genuine then they usually cite section 212(a)(6)(c ). You won't know for sure which section they cited on their recommendation to USCIS because you won't get a copy of that document. The letter your fiancee gets will be more general in nature, and may only cite section 221(g), which just means you didn't submit all of the documents and/or evidence needed for an approval. If the letter contains any phrase like "The consulate believes this relationship is a sham for the purpose of securing an immigration benefit" then you can bet that the CO cited 212(a)(6)(c ) in their recommendation to USCIS.

Ok, I said before that the petition is returned to the USCIS service center that originally approved it.

VSC will usually readjudicate the petition, taking into consideration the consular officers findings. If they disagree with the consular officer, they'll reaffirm the approval and send the petition back to the consulate. This can take anywhere from a few months to a couple of years. If they agree with the consular officer, then they'll send you a Notice Of Intent to Revoke (NOIR) or Notice Of Intent to Deny (NOID), and give you a limited amount of time to rebut their findings. The contents of this notice will inform you whether the consular officer has accused your fiancee of being in a sham relationship. If you can successfully convince them that the consular officer was wrong then they'll reaffirm the petition approval. If you can't then they'll revoke the approval, and the accusation of fraud will become a fact.

CSC usually doesn't bother readjudicating returned K1 petitions. They just let them expire, and send you a notice that you're free to file another petition. What happens after that depends on what you do. Lately, CSC has been employing a new tactic. If you submit another K1 petition then they send you a NOID, and they cite the reasons the CO denied the visa for the first petition. Again, if you don't successfully rebut the NOID then they'll deny the petition, and the accusation of fraud will become a fact.

It's unclear what will happen if the service center closes the first petition without making a decision on the consular officer's accusations, which is what might happen if you withdraw the first petition after the visa has been denied and/or file a second K1 petition. There is a P6C marker in the beneficiary's file, but no final decision on that marker. Some consulates will refuse to schedule an interview for a subsequent K1 visa until they get a decision on the first returned petition, which leaves the second petition hanging in limbo at the consulate until it expires.

If you get married and file a CR1 then the first K1 petition becomes largely irrelevant. However, if the K1 petition approval was revoked then your fiancee has a finding of fraud in her file. That would affect any visa she applies for in the future. A finding of fraud means she's not admissible to the US. You'd need to submit an I-601 hardship waiver to the consulate after the next visa is denied in order to overcome the ban.

This is probably way too much information because none of this stuff has happened yet. If the consulate tells you that they won't consider SSDI as qualifying income then you have the option of withdrawing the petition, getting married, and starting over with a CR1. This would pretty much guarantee you the opportunity to have a joint sponsor.

[jofoto10 0]

Yes, the consulate will tell you if the petition is being sent back to USCIS. If the visa is denied at the interview then your fiancee will have the notice in her hand when she leaves.

If the petition approval is revoked by USCIS then everything depends on which section of the INA was cited by the consular officer when the petition was returned. If they cite only section 212(a)(4) for the public charge requirement, then there would be no finding of fraud. If they cite section 212(a)(6)(c ) for misrepresentation, then there may be a finding of fraud. When a consular officer denies a visa because they're just not convinced that the relationship is genuine then they usually cite section 212(a)(6)(c ). You won't know for sure which section they cited on their recommendation to USCIS because you won't get a copy of that document. The letter your fiancee gets will be more general in nature, and may only cite section 221(g), which just means you didn't submit all of the documents and/or evidence needed for an approval. If the letter contains any phrase like "The consulate believes this relationship is a sham for the purpose of securing an immigration benefit" then you can bet that the CO cited 212(a)(6)(c ) in their recommendation to USCIS.

Ok, I said before that the petition is returned to the USCIS service center that originally approved it.

VSC will usually readjudicate the petition, taking into consideration the consular officers findings. If they disagree with the consular officer, they'll reaffirm the approval and send the petition back to the consulate. This can take anywhere from a few months to a couple of years. If they agree with the consular officer, then they'll send you a Notice Of Intent to Revoke (NOIR) or Notice Of Intent to Deny (NOID), and give you a limited amount of time to rebut their findings. The contents of this notice will inform you whether the consular officer has accused your fiancee of being in a sham relationship. If you can successfully convince them that the consular officer was wrong then they'll reaffirm the petition approval. If you can't then they'll revoke the approval, and the accusation of fraud will become a fact.

CSC usually doesn't bother readjudicating returned K1 petitions. They just let them expire, and send you a notice that you're free to file another petition. What happens after that depends on what you do. Lately, CSC has been employing a new tactic. If you submit another K1 petition then they send you a NOID, and they cite the reasons the CO denied the visa for the first petition. Again, if you don't successfully rebut the NOID then they'll deny the petition, and the accusation of fraud will become a fact.

It's unclear what will happen if the service center closes the first petition without making a decision on the consular officer's accusations, which is what might happen if you withdraw the first petition after the visa has been denied and/or file a second K1 petition. There is a P6C marker in the beneficiary's file, but no final decision on that marker. Some consulates will refuse to schedule an interview for a subsequent K1 visa until they get a decision on the first returned petition, which leaves the second petition hanging in limbo at the consulate until it expires.

If you get married and file a CR1 then the first K1 petition becomes largely irrelevant. However, if the K1 petition approval was revoked then your fiancee has a finding of fraud in her file. That would affect any visa she applies for in the future. A finding of fraud means she's not admissible to the US. You'd need to submit an I-601 hardship waiver to the consulate after the next visa is denied in order to overcome the ban.

This is probably way too much information because none of this stuff has happened yet. If the consulate tells you that they won't consider SSDI as qualifying income then you have the option of withdrawing the petition, getting married, and starting over with a CR1. This would pretty much guarantee you the opportunity to have a joint sponsor.

Thank you for the information, it is good to understand the facts and know of the hypotheticals for future reference. The next step is to email the consulate in Bangkok, I have found 3 addresses on VJ, visasbkk@state.gov ; visasbkk2@state.gov and http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/embassy/contactus/ I will try the first one first and see if they respond. Thank you for your time and energy. I will keep you posted.

[SimplyMacy 4]

Thank you for the information, it is good to understand the facts and know of the hypotheticals for future reference. The next step is to email the consulate in Bangkok, I have found 3 addresses on VJ, visasbkk@state.gov ; visasbkk2@state.gov and http://bangkok.usemb...assy/contactus/ I will try the first one first and see if they respond. Thank you for your time and energy. I will keep you posted.

I really hope they will accept the SSDI. My fiancee is on SSDI too. I have read in many posts that SSDI is acceptable income for I-134. Goodluck on your journey! I still have to ask the USE here in Dubai if they will consider it.

Edited November 23, 2010 by SimplyMacy

[jofoto10 0]

I really hope they will accept the SSDI. My fiancee is on SSDI too. I have read in many posts that SSDI is acceptable income for I-134. Goodluck on your journey! I still have to ask the USE here in Dubai if they will consider it.

Thank you for your post, it is encouraging to hear that SSDI has been accepted before. I will post the information from Bangkok when I receive an answer.

Good luck to you and yours.