Sending money to your wife's family for hospital expenses

[Gilles 4]

the fact that compared to her family back home, she's a bit better off is not an excuse to give you all this stress. she needs to stop acting like everything needs to revolve around her. she is sooo lucky to have found a guy as patient and as nice as you...pero nilalapastangan ka nya my friend. and guys like you don't deserve to be treated the way your wife is treating you.

maybe you're better off not having a child yet as of this time...given your situation and your wife's selfish attitude. at least until your wife starts to get her act together. your wife needs to be taught a good hard lesson when it comes to finances and being married.

I've asked my wife if she had X dollars and it were extra money, would she prefer to put it away for having a child or send it to the Philippines. She repeatedly avoided the question, but after about the 10th time I asked it, she finally said she would send half to her family and save half for a baby fund.

She wants me to use our bill paying account to send money (we'll call it xxx dollars) to her family. It would put a strain on the budget by using that account (or any of our accounts) to send xxx dollars to her family. She has her own account which she uses to pay for groceries and personal expenses, but she said she had only about 25% of xxx dollars in the account. I asked her if she had xxx dollars in her account, would she send it to her family. She repeatedly (perhaps about 5 times) avoided the question. Then the following day, slightly over xxx dollars showed up in her account (it was obviously not a deposit from her part time job) and it immediately went out as a transfer to her family in the Philippines. I've asked her where the money came from and she completely avoids the question. I'm not very happy about this :-(

[Maxx121 14]

Love is a two way street man, and just my observation, you sound like you are on a one way. I wish you much luck.

[thelastpetitioner 218]

gilles,i finished reading the thread,you still think you lover her?and youe still keeing up with her games?

i dont think you need couple counseling,i think you need individual counseling to be honest

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

A family is a wonderful thing. Structurally, it's a small community that provides support for its members. All are in "one boat."

In the "old" days -- and these old days are to a large part still lived in Hispanic and Asian communities -- families with members from 3, often 4 generations live under one roof. Once Grandma and Grandpa are too old to work, the younger members of the community take care of them. These can be quite big boats, especially if they pop out babies like rabbits in order to enlarge their support system.

In modern western societies, and the US American society is part of it, these huge families are a thing of the past. With the rise of social security and pension and retirement funds, we nowadays prefer smaller boats.

Once a daughter from a large family is being given away to a man from another family and gets married, they have their own boat and, like in this case, the boat is sailing to a place thousands of miles away. The umbilical cord is cut and a new family is founded.

At this time, man and wife need to take care of their own family. I defies Western thought to send money to the old family. But even if you apply the nexus of morality (sorry, I'm a "studied" philosopher), Kant's categorical imperative, then morally you would only be obligated to provide what you would expect to get in return.

So here are the two questions to ask yourself and your wife: will her old family send money to you, to help you out, should the need arise, and would you expect them to send you money? Depending on your answers, you can deduct the extent of your moral obligation to them. Kant in layman's terms is like this: do to others what you expect them to do to you, or, in the negative, don't do to others what you wouldn't want to be done to you.

I only hope that you and your wife are not only physically, but also morally in the same boat. If not, one has to leave. Most likely, that's the person who can swim back to the big boat and feels like that boat is still somewhat the boat she belongs to.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Just Bob

[Maxx121 14]

A family is a wonderful thing. Structurally, it's a small community that provides support for its members. All are in "one boat."

In the "old" days -- and these old days are to a large part still lived in Hispanic and Asian communities -- families with members from 3, often 4 generations live under one roof. Once Grandma and Grandpa are too old to work, the younger members of the community take care of them. These can be quite big boats, especially if they pop out babies like rabbits in order to enlarge their support system.

In modern western societies, and the US American society is part of it, these huge families are a thing of the past. With the rise of social security and pension and retirement funds, we nowadays prefer smaller boats.

Once a daughter from a large family is being given away to a man from another family and gets married, they have their own boat and, like in this case, the boat is sailing to a place thousands of miles away. The umbilical cord is cut and a new family is founded.

At this time, man and wife need to take care of their own family. I defies Western thought to send money to the old family. But even if you apply the nexus of morality (sorry, I'm a "studied" philosopher), Kant's categorical imperative, then morally you would only be obligated to provide what you would expect to get in return.

So here are the two questions to ask yourself and your wife: will her old family send money to you, to help you out, should the need arise, and would you expect them to send you money? Depending on your answers, you can deduct the extent of your moral obligation to them. Kant in layman's terms is like this: do to others what you expect them to do to you, or, in the negative, don't do to others what you wouldn't want to be done to you.

I only hope that you and your wife are not only physically, but also morally in the same boat. If not, one has to leave. Most likely, that's the person who can swim back to the big boat and feels like that boat is still somewhat the boat she belongs to.

Great post, hehe i cant say that Kant doesnt apply to my family because it does hehe. And thats why i feel sooo lucky to have my wife and her family and my kids will spend almost every summer of their lives in teh phils learning those same values my wife was raised on so they dont become spoiled american bratz

@ Gilles think it was YGR who said this first, but yeah you need counselling. My suggestion is find a philipina marriage counselor and send her there if you want to try to give your marriage a shot. if not, you will put yourself in a very early grave or she will eventually leave you.

Food for thought, i know a guy from california that married a young filipina and she came here and left him after a few years to be with someone else who had less issues than he. he wasnt perfect but she didnt believe int eh for better or worse and when and found better.

sucks, fix your problems now or be alone later

[Gilles 4]

Great post, hehe i cant say that Kant doesnt apply to my family because it does hehe. And thats why i feel sooo lucky to have my wife and her family and my kids will spend almost every summer of their lives in teh phils learning those same values my wife was raised on so they dont become spoiled american bratz

@ Gilles think it was YGR who said this first, but yeah you need counselling. My suggestion is find a philipina marriage counselor and send her there if you want to try to give your marriage a shot. if not, you will put yourself in a very early grave or she will eventually leave you.

Food for thought, i know a guy from california that married a young filipina and she came here and left him after a few years to be with someone else who had less issues than he. he wasnt perfect but she didnt believe int eh for better or worse and when and found better.

sucks, fix your problems now or be alone later

I just found out that she sent an additional amount to her family in the Philippines that was equivalent to half a month's income for her. And she failed to consult with me ahead of time. Now she wants to go to school so she can work full-time and make a higher hourly wage. I can't imagine why I shouldn't insist that she save up her money and pay the initial tuition fees herself.

[Maxx121 14]

I just found out that she sent an additional amount to her family in the Philippines that was equivalent to half a month's income for her. And she failed to consult with me ahead of time. Now she wants to go to school so she can work full-time and make a higher hourly wage. I can't imagine why I shouldn't insist that she save up her money and pay the initial tuition fees herself.

Honestly, if money is as big an issue for you as it seems, then maybe you should stay single. Cause in any marriage there will always be money problems. Im guessing your wife sent around $600 bucks home ($10*30 hours*4weeks/2) you can live of that for a month in the phils. So if she is taking care or them and not your home, at this point, if she isnt getting it, i would call it a day before she gets her GC and leaves you.

Cause to hear you tell it, it seems like she is here to work and send money back home and nothing else.

If you feel used then do what you have to do to send her back home, love turns smart people int fools.

If you are overreacting, then relax.

[rlogan 2,036]

I just found out that she sent an additional amount to her family in the Philippines that was equivalent to half a month's income for her. And she failed to consult with me ahead of time. Now she wants to go to school so she can work full-time and make a higher hourly wage. I can't imagine why I shouldn't insist that she save up her money and pay the initial tuition fees herself.

Hi Gilles.

As you know I kept up with the thread on her manipulative behavior.

What she is doing now is called the "double bind" and it's a pretty cruel, cold calculating tactic of a manipulator.

She's borrowed the money and not told you about doing so, because of course you would not approve. The intention is coming to you later with the debt and saying that you either pay the debt or else the consequences of loss of face to the lender etc. are your fault.

A double bind is where you lose no matter what you do. If you don't pay the debt then there are bad consequences. If you pay the debt you have been blackmailed, which is a bad consequence too. You lose no matter what you do.

Manipulative people are experts at this tactic. The important thing for you to see is how savage this kind of behavior is. She knows exactly what she is doing. The secrecy is critical. Without the decepetion she cannot put you in the double bind.

There is a feeling of anguish and hopelessness with the double bind. An expert manipulator puts you on an endless conveyor belt of double binds in order to wear you down, break your will, and make you easier to dominate and control.

The very best of them also know that a good parasite does not kill its host. So when it looks like you are going to divorce them or do something really serious to threaten their gravy train then they know just how much false hope to instill in you by pretending to become reasonable, shedding tears, making false promises, etc.

The most clever manipulators will not actually tell you about the debt when it comes due. They will act like something is obviously wrong, cry, and force you to pry it out of them that they borrowed money and oh gosh they feel so horrible about it boo hoo hoo. They'll get their victim feeling so sorry for them that the victim is actually comforting their ruthless tormentor.

It is quite true that some hospitals will not let you out unless you pay. I told my wife that was preposterous once, but sure enough when she was admitted and I wanted to leave, a guy with a shotgun would not let us off the grounds until we paid in full.

I had wanted to leave because we could not find the administrators to pay the bill, but if we stayed they would charge us for another day. Talk about blackmail! Good Lord was it a nightmare just paying them. We never went there again.

But this does not make it your obligation to pay. I recently had to say no to our family for that exact same thing - and it was not extended family. It was my wife's mother.

We have been sending money, but the rule is that's all they get. Medical expenses are not an emergency. Nor is a funeral, a wedding, or a typhoon. These are events to be expected in the course of life. If you are not saving for them then that means your plan was to come to us for them.

We do not agree to that plan. The answer is no.

I am so grateful for my wife. My God how wonderful life has been with her, standing together as a team. Communicating honestly and openly. Saying the difficult but truthful things to her family.

They have respected us for it, and things are just fine between us.

I've lived how you are too with a black-hearted manipulators that were capable of insufferable cruelty. I wouldn't wish that life on anyone.

I would leave her. You mentioned children. My God, you think it's bad now - just wait until you have children.

If she had agreed to counselling and was serious about admitting her destructive behavior and throwing a lot of effort into changing - that would be one thing. But that is not the situation.

I wish you well. My life sure is wonderful now, being free of manipulative people.

[Atencio 43]

I have a bunch of Filipino employees, born and married in the Philippines and they all, everyone of them sends money and goods back home. This is something that I think every USC should make sure is discussed early on with his new Filipino spouse/fiancee. I am not referring to your case so much Gilles since you seem to have other issues going on.

[Loolie 56]

I just found out that she sent an additional amount to her family in the Philippines that was equivalent to half a month's income for her. And she failed to consult with me ahead of time. Now she wants to go to school so she can work full-time and make a higher hourly wage. I can't imagine why I shouldn't insist that she save up her money and pay the initial tuition fees herself.

I wonder when are you gonna take action about whats shes been doing? are you just gonna keep on posting the same issue here on vj?

[Gilles 4]

Hi Gilles.

As you know I kept up with the thread on her manipulative behavior.

What she is doing now is called the "double bind" and it's a pretty cruel, cold calculating tactic of a manipulator.

She's borrowed the money and not told you about doing so, because of course you would not approve. The intention is coming to you later with the debt and saying that you either pay the debt or else the consequences of loss of face to the lender etc. are your fault.

While she won't tell me who she borrowed the money from, it's clear to me she borrowed it from a friend. When my wife says it's time to pay the friend back, I'll pick up the phone, call the friend and tell him/her that my wife will pay out of her paychecks.

A double bind is where you lose no matter what you do. If you don't pay the debt then there are bad consequences. If you pay the debt you have been blackmailed, which is a bad consequence too. You lose no matter what you do.

Manipulative people are experts at this tactic. The important thing for you to see is how savage this kind of behavior is. She knows exactly what she is doing. The secrecy is critical. Without the decepetion she cannot put you in the double bind.

There is a feeling of anguish and hopelessness with the double bind. An expert manipulator puts you on an endless conveyor belt of double binds in order to wear you down, break your will, and make you easier to dominate and control.

The very best of them also know that a good parasite does not kill its host. So when it looks like you are going to divorce them or do something really serious to threaten their gravy train then they know just how much false hope to instill in you by pretending to become reasonable, shedding tears, making false promises, etc.

The most clever manipulators will not actually tell you about the debt when it comes due. They will act like something is obviously wrong, cry, and force you to pry it out of them that they borrowed money and oh gosh they feel so horrible about it boo hoo hoo. They'll get their victim feeling so sorry for them that the victim is actually comforting their ruthless tormentor.

She wants to go to school and is inevitably going to want me to pay for her schooling. I haven't yet told her, but I won't do that unless she turns over complete control of her income to me. (with her income, she could save up enough for the first part of her schooling in less than six months) Although she's been paying some household bills and has been taking care of a good portion of the household expenses (primarily groceries), she hasn't been responsible with the remainder of her money and hasn't been accountable either. She hasn't saved up any money and has sent practically 100% of her excess to her family in the Philippines. She'll inevitably throw a fit when I tell her she's going to have to pay for her schooling herself, but once she settles down, she'll either have to give up the idea of schooling or turn over her entire income so I can manage it with our best interests in mind.

It is quite true that some hospitals will not let you out unless you pay. I told my wife that was preposterous once, but sure enough when she was admitted and I wanted to leave, a guy with a shotgun would not let us off the grounds until we paid in full.

I find that difficult to understand, as if it were true, the hospitals would be overrun with people who received treatment but couldn't pay their bill. It would essentially turn the hospital into a prison. Someone in this thread said they'll eventually let you go after 7-10 days, as they just cannot hold that many people in the hospital.

I had wanted to leave because we could not find the administrators to pay the bill, but if we stayed they would charge us for another day. Talk about blackmail! Good Lord was it a nightmare just paying them. We never went there again.

But this does not make it your obligation to pay. I recently had to say no to our family for that exact same thing - and it was not extended family. It was my wife's mother.

We have been sending money, but the rule is that's all they get. Medical expenses are not an emergency. Nor is a funeral, a wedding, or a typhoon. These are events to be expected in the course of life. If you are not saving for them then that means your plan was to come to us for them.

We do not agree to that plan. The answer is no.

I am so grateful for my wife. My God how wonderful life has been with her, standing together as a team. Communicating honestly and openly. Saying the difficult but truthful things to her family.

They have respected us for it, and things are just fine between us.

I've lived how you are too with a black-hearted manipulators that were capable of insufferable cruelty. I wouldn't wish that life on anyone.

I would leave her. You mentioned children. My God, you think it's bad now - just wait until you have children.

She has said she wants to have children and I've asked her to put her money in a baby fund instead of sending money to her family. She insists that it doesn't cost any extra money to have a baby. I've asked her if she had X extra dollars to either put in a baby fund or send to her family, what would she do with it and she refused to answer. I had to ask her some 5 or 6 times before she finally said she'd send half and put half in the baby fund. If she really wanted to evade the question and/or manipulate me, then why didn't she say, "I'd give you the money and let you decide"?

If she had agreed to counselling and was serious about admitting her destructive behavior and throwing a lot of effort into changing - that would be one thing. But that is not the situation.

I wish you well. My life sure is wonderful now, being free of manipulative people.

She has made progress in the last six months and I am hopeful that this recent uprising is the crossroads our relationship has to reach so that she gets her head in gear. I think she knows I'm far more comfortable saying "no" now then I was earlier.

[adiiann 163]

Hi Giles!

I happened to pass by to your thread.... so while I am resting in front of my computer.... I would give my one-fourth cent.... LoL

About your situation in hospital bills, you wife can help them but probably to a certain extent only that your financial side will not suffer. My one-eighth cent on this, she probably not the only family member and shouldn't be paying all the bills. Her other relatives could contribute in paying hospital bills as hospital bills are really expensive. Like for instance, I have uncle-grandpa that doesn't have kids, so when he got hospitalized, I gave money for the bills but I only gave what I really can afford to give (which mean the extra money that we usually have to buy some non-necessities stuff). The rest of my family members contributed to help paid his bills.

This is just my mere observation and I don't intend to insult anybody nor hurt feelings by addressing this. Most Filipinas have this so-called "kayabangan" and sending money to their family implicate progress to their family. It will give their neighbors the notion that they are getting rich and they would be above them in terms of status in life (esp. if they came from a poor way of living). So no matter how much money they will send to their family in the Philippines, it will never be enough.

My one-eighth cent of your situation, did she marry you in order to get here and work to earn money for her family? or did she marry you in order to build a family of your own? and which reason weighs more?

You said you asked your wife about the future of your kids(if you already have), my husband asked me that too because we're comparing the way of living here and in the Philippines. I told him that we will save for our kids education and probably send them to Philippines for college if the quality of education is the same.

I am probably bias on my opinion or probably I am addressing some truth, I don't send money to my family in the Philippines like how most of the Filipinas regularly do because for me, helping is necessary but it always have boundaries. I have family here to take care of (though, just my husband and our little pup only for now). I have to think ahead of my family's future. I sound probably selfish, but come think of it, I didn't go in this foreign land to earn money for people that probably not thinking of my future but only what their present, I went here to build a family that I will call my own and have them until I could work no more.

[rlogan 2,036]

One of the things that you learn to do Gilles is to watch what people do instead of listening to what they say.

I was deficient that way. It was a personal weakness of mine. Too trusting. Naiive. Gullible.

It isn't worth anguishing over what she says and what it means. The only thing you can go by is what she does.

I can tell you what else she is doing: She's sending out feelers with other men. Dropping little hints, making allusions, turning on the charm and then turning it off. She's evaluating how they are responding. Lining up candidates. Eliminating others.

All of her actions - whether it is work or school & etc. have that component figured into it. I am not saying that she is actively pursuing an affair. What she is doing is keeping that option available in subtle ways, always covered in plausible deniability. By the looks of things, she will dump you if she can engineer the opportunity, rather than vice-versa.

You can talk about what you are going to do when the debt comes due, and how you are going to take full control of her income - but you can't plan with manipulators. You did not plan for her borrowing money in secret and against your will, and you can't plan for whatever she does next.

About the only thing you can count on is that like now, she will treat you as an enemy: do it behind your back and lie about it.

Like a lot of men, all she's got to do is charm you in bed and the most aggregious kinds of acts are forgotten. But what you have to remember is manipulative people are not capable of love and empathy. They can just as easily snuggle up to a rotting corpse as they can with you.

She's going to paint you in the eyes of other people in the manner that best suits her objectives. With potential lovers you are the manipulative, controlling, abusive ogre. They'll be set up to play the hero, rescuing her from your clutches. That is an irresistable role for a lot of men.

A person who demonstrates such brutal infidelity about money wouldn't think twice about other forms of infidelity. Your feelings are immaterial. People are objects to attain ends. The things that matter to her are cold calculations like where she is on permanent residency, what options she has available - not marriage vows.

When the next infidelity comes, and the next one after - I am not one to gloat with "I told you so". It's a sad thing.

So many beautiful, kind, and giving Filipinas out there pining away for a man. That's who I think about in these situations. The nice girls that would knock themselves out to take her place.

But Hey! I could be totally wrong and tomorrow she shows up with two of her scorching-hot younger friends and says "honey, I want to make this up to you..." Might be a game-changer in the offing, y'know?

Best of luck.

[Kevin- 13]

Gilles, I'm praying for you and your wife.

I hope she is not a purely evil manipulator as Bob suspects. I hope she will realize that she is in error, and that the good part of her will feel guilty for the way she is acting.

I don't know if I've read your other threads, but in this one you present evidence that can be seen two ways. She may be fighting conflicting emotions, including guilt, because she feels overwhelmingly obligated to help her family, but also knows she should be responsible with you, "her new family". It could also be what Bob says. I hope what he said about her behavior around other men is purely speculation extending from the financial infidelities, and isn't actually happening.

Does she believe in God? If she does, then a simple pair of questions can and should be applied to her actions. Ask her: Do you believe in God? (rhetorical to remind her) Does God approve of this? Explain the consequences of her actions as they pertain to you and her. You could include the comparison Bob made about her acting like the enemy, going behind your back and lying about it.

I imagine the further away people are from enforcement of that new law, the more likely the hospitals will not release you if you don't pay. I know Bel's sister was held for several days when their baby was hospitalized. We helped, but we couldn't afford to pay the whole thing, and Bel does not want everyone relying on us for every need, just as Bob mentioned:

Medical expenses are not an emergency. Nor is a funeral, a wedding, or a typhoon. These are events to be expected in the course of life. If you are not saving for them then that means your plan was to come to us for them.

And Adiiann mentioned:

I have to think ahead of my family's future. I sound probably selfish, but come think of it, I didn't go in this foreign land to earn money for people that probably not thinking of my future but only what their present, I went here to build a family that I will call my own

I have a personal "weakness" in that if we can afford it, I'm tempted to help her family there with every thing they need. But this is not good for them. People need to support themselves, especially the siblings who are more than capable of supporting themselves. We've decided to help her mother, because most likely the siblings will stop supporting mom because there's a 'kano in the family now. But we are going to be careful about that, so that it's only for mom, and strongly encourage the younger siblings to get out on their own and live in their own means. Most people who are given a free ride through life become irresponsible and selfish people. Working for a living tends to teach a respectful attitude, and a healthy level of humility.

If you seek counseling BE CAREFUL!!! Not all counselors are equal, and not all counselors actually want to help marriages, even if they are using the Marriage Counselor title. Some female marriage counselors are actually stout anti-male feminists who want to carefully dismantle the marriages of the women who come to them for help. I imagine this is not common, but it definitely does happen. I personally know people who have had this happen to them. Imagine a marriage counselor telling the woman to do this: One night the husband is cooking dinner. When he's almost done she gathers the kids and goes to pick up some fast food. They bring it right back home and eat it at the kitchen table, all without her saying anything to him. She's been informed that if he gets angry about this, then he's an evil, terrible man and she should consider leaving him.

Finally, your patience is a virtue. Don't let anyone tell you to stop being patient.

[Atencio 43]

Hi Gilles.

Medical expenses are not an emergency. Nor is a funeral, a wedding, or a typhoon. These are events to be expected in the course of life. If you are not saving for them then that means your plan was to come to us for them.

Sorry I can agree with a wedding or funeral but medical expenses or a typhoon? Things happen in life that are way out of your control. My wife has a great job and PhilHealth but even she is living a month to month existence without any luxuries.