Oklahoma City - 15 Years Later | Waco - 17 Years Later

[Obama 2012 1,714]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/04/19/okc.bombing.anniversary/

(CNN) -- Fifteen years ago, a bomb ripped through a federal building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, in the worst homegrown terrorist attack on U.S. soil.

The April 19, 1995, attack killed 168 people, shattering the notion of many that America was largely immune to domestic terrorism.

Fifteen years later, its impact still reverberates with those who lived through it.

Don Gordon, 37, who was about seven miles away from the Alfred P. Murrah federal building at the time of the blast, remembers feeling the force of the explosion as he was backing out of a parking spot at a grocery store.

"It felt like I'd hit a car," he said of the concussion from the blast. "I looked and saw a ton of smoke pouring from downtown."

The tragedy became readily apparent as the day went on when he saw the damage to the building and bodies being pulled from it.

"It was absolutely horrifying," said Gordon, a fourth-generation jeweler whose family's presence in Oklahoma predates statehood. "It was horror in real life."

Army veteran Timothy McVeigh was eventually convicted on federal murder charges in connection with the bombing and executed in 2001.

McVeigh said he set off the bomb in front of the Murrah building at 9:01 a.m. CT in part to seek revenge against the U.S. government for its raid on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, on April 19, 1993.

On Monday, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano will travel to Oklahoma City to commemorate the 15th anniversary of the bombing. There, she will talk about the steps her office is taking to combat the evolving threats of terrorism.

Of the people killed in the attack, 19 were children who were at a day care center in the facility. Miraculously, six children survived and are now teenagers and young adults.

P.J. Allen, now 16, was 18 months old when the bomb brought the building down on top of him, forcing him to inhale hot air and smoke.

"His lungs were severely damaged," said Deloris Watson, Allen's grandmother. "It was touch and go for P.J. for a long time."

Now in high school, Allen works with a tutor every week and hopes to study mechanical engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

He also loves sports, but his damaged lungs keep him from taking part competitively.

"My asthma stops me from running all the time," said Allen, who speaks with a hint of a rasp in his voice between quick pauses to catch his breath. "Sometimes, coaches wouldn't want to play me because I might get hurt."

Despite the hardships and years of surgeries, including numerous tracheotomies, Allen said he hardly ever asks, "Why me?"

"Because to me, this is normal," Allen explained. "As far as I remember, this has been what my life has been like."

Brother and sister Brandon and Rebecca Denny were hurt in the attack, although it was the older brother who received the more permanent injuries.

While then 2-year-old Rebecca Denny required 240 stitches to patch her up, her brother -- then 3 -- suffered severe brain injuries, leaving the right side of his body weak.

"First of all, they said he might not live, and second of all, if he does live, he will never walk or talk again," said mother Claudia Denny.

But Brandon Denny proved doctors wrong. He not only survived but he is now a junior in high school with his sister.

"When you go through something like this, it just doesn't go away, like the next day or the next year. It affects you for your whole life," said Rebecca Gordon, who still wonders why she was lucky enough to survive.

"I wonder," she said, "but I don't know, I guess I have something important to do."

That sense of destiny is shared by another childhood survivor: Chris Nguyen, now a sophomore at the University of Oklahoma in nearby Norman.

"I've been given like a gift, you might say, and if I don't make something of my life to succeed and make a difference of some kind, then I would have wasted my life," Nguyen said.

"I think about the other parents -- all the other day care children and families -- who've lost someone ... but I feel guilty almost that Brandon, Rebecca, P.J. and I, we get to live our lives ... and the other people, they don't get that opportunity," he said.

If anything good came out of the bombing, Gordon said, it was that Oklahoma City forged a common bond.

"It was horrible, but so much good came out of it," he said. "This whole city pulled it together. It was phenomenal."

Edited April 19, 2010 by Paul and Vanessa

[tallcoolone 102]

The ATF murdered all those at Waco, it was unreal to watch them all burn, Very tragic event

[lostinblue 1,989]

The ATF murdered all those at Waco, it was unreal to watch them all burn, Very tragic event

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978182316

Former President Bill Clinton, speaking at the Center for American Progress, expounded on the relation between rhetoric and terrorism. Oddly enough Clinton was not talking about—say—a Mullah calling for jihad, inspiring suicide bombers.

Clinton was instead referring to Tea Party protesters. In so doing, he invoked the only terrorist bomber the Left likes to talk about, Timothy McVeigh, who killed hundreds by blowing up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995.

If anyone has become "unhinged" by Tea Party anti tax and anti big government rhetoric, it has been the Left. The Tea Partiers have been accused by left wing politicians and pundit of being everything from Klansmen without the sheets to a bunch of angry, old white men. By actually ascribing violent motives to Tea Party protesters, Bill Clinton does not seem to be choosing his words with a view of not inciting.

Rush Limbaugh, who was once accused by Bill Clinton of inspiring Timothy McVeigh, was having none of it. "Why do you think the tea party people are so reviled? Why is it that we can sit there and accuse nonviolent tea party people of committing terrorist acts? I mean that's what Clinton's doing. He's predicting that tea party people are going to blow up a federal building again, and in the process.... I'm going to state right now: If there is a future incident such as Oklahoma City, the blame is squarely Clinton's on the shoulders of Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, who I'm sure is coordinating Clinton's appearance on this."

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/FTRIALS/mcveigh/mcveighwaco.html

February 28, 1993

The U. S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF), using about 80 armed agents, attempts to execute a search and arrest warrant (for possession of illegal weapons) against the Branch Davidians, a religious community headed by David Koresh and based in central Texas, near the city of Waco. The raid ends unsuccessfully and badly, with six Branch Davidians and four agents killed. What will turn out to be a 51-day stand-off begins at the Mount Carmel compound.

March 1993

McVeigh, incensed by reports of the siege at Mount Carmel, travels to Texas to visit the site. He is blocked at a checkpoint three miles from the Branch Davidian's compound. On March 30, an interview with McVeigh about the siege and his feelings toward the government, including the photo shown above, runs in the S.M.U. college newspaper.

April 19, 1993

The FBI and army attack the Mount Carmel compound of the Branch Davidians. Tanks ram holes in the building and CS gas is pumped inside. Pyrotechnic devices are fired into the building, igniting a fire that soon becomes an inferno. Seventy-four men, women, and children are found dead inside the building. McVeigh watches reports on the dramatic events from the Nichols family farm in Michigan.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

RIP

[Nagishkaw 510]

[Saddle Bronc 124]

The ATF murdered all those at Waco, it was unreal to watch them all burn, Very tragic event

Worst of it was that Reno had info available of India's 1988 "Operation Black Thunder" (which had been published in magazines, easily available from public libraries or Library-of-Congress--the operation was successful) which she could have used as a model. Instead, she used Philadelphia's 1985 approach of handling "MOVE" which burnt down quite a few row-houses.

[Ali G. 37]

Have you guys heard the video's released today? He sounds an awful lot like a handful of anti government people you here speak today.

[CDAgirlMI 51]

Have you guys heard the video's released today? He sounds an awful lot like a handful of anti government people you here speak today.

Yea, but how many people who speak "anti-government" commit acts of violence because of it?

[Ali G. 37]

Yea, but how many people who speak "anti-government" commit acts of violence because of it?

Evidently quite a few in this country. Various people have a bizarre sense of government and democracy here. Many falsely assume every differing opinion on how to run things should be implemented, otherwise that gives you the right to 'bear arms' to get your point. Yes, even when the majority of voters disagree with you. That is not how civilized first world countries work. Over there, you have to convince others that your way is better, further, win over the majority of the people - the voters. Elections here are pointless as regardless of who wins, those not elected feel they should still have their way. Happened under Bush and it's now happening under Obama.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Ali G.

[lostinblue 1,989]

Have you guys heard the video's released today? He sounds an awful lot like a handful of anti government people you here speak today.

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/252374-obamas-good-friend-banned-from-speaking/

I did post this about obama's good neighbor and friend Bill Ayers. Has their been other bombers of federal property mentioned on Visa Journey in the last few months?

[lostinblue 1,989]

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/252374-obamas-good-friend-banned-from-speaking/

I did post this about obama's good neighbor and friend Bill Ayers. Has their been other bombers of federal property mentioned on Visa Journey in the last few months?

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/11/books/no-regrets-for-love-explosives-memoir-sorts-war-protester-talks-life-with.html?pagewanted=all

No Regrets for a Love Of Explosives; In a Memoir of Sorts, a War Protester Talks of Life With the Weathermen

By DINITIA SMITH

Published: September 11, 2001

''I don't regret setting bombs,'' Bill Ayers said. ''I feel we didn't do enough.'' Mr. Ayers, who spent the 1970's as a fugitive in the Weather Underground, was sitting in the kitchen of his big turn-of-the-19th-century stone house in the Hyde Park district of Chicago. The long curly locks in his Wanted poster are shorn, though he wears earrings. He still has tattooed on his neck the rainbow-and-lightning Weathermen logo that appeared on letters taking responsibility for bombings. And he still has the ebullient, ingratiating manner, the apparently intense interest in other people, that made him a charismatic figure in the radical student movement.

Now he has written a book, ''Fugitive Days'' (Beacon Press, September). Mr. Ayers, who is 56, calls it a memoir, somewhat coyly perhaps, since he also says some of it is fiction. He writes that he participated in the bombings of New York City Police Headquarters in 1970, of the Capitol building in 1971, the Pentagon in 1972. But Mr. Ayers also seems to want to have it both ways, taking responsibility for daring acts in his youth, then deflecting it.

''Is this, then, the truth?,'' he writes. ''Not exactly. Although it feels entirely honest to me.''

But why would someone want to read a memoir parts of which are admittedly not true? Mr. Ayers was asked.

''Obviously, the point is it's a reflection on memory,'' he answered. ''It's true as I remember it.''

Mr. Ayers is probably safe from prosecution anyway. A spokeswoman for the Justice Department said there was a five-year statute of limitations on Federal crimes except in cases of murder or when a person has been indicted.

Mr. Ayers, who in 1970 was said to have summed up the Weatherman philosophy as: ''Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at,'' is today distinguished professor of education at the University of Illinois at Chicago. And he says he doesn't actually remember suggesting that rich people be killed or that people kill their parents, but ''it's been quoted so many times I'm beginning to think I did,'' he said. ''It was a joke about the distribution of wealth.''

[alienlovechild 75]

Evidently quite a few in this country. Yes, even when the majority of voters disagree with you. That is not how civilized first world countries work. Over there, you have to convince others that your way is better, further, win over the majority of the people - the voters.

Not buying your assertion that a lot of anti-government people are committing acts of violence. Given that a lot of Americans are armed, there should as many political killings going on as often as "ordinary" crimes. Most of it is just talk and shouldn't be confused with the far more numerous who want to significant reforms in government without any violence at all.

People abroad get the impression there are hordes of miltias out there controlling large sections of the country based on reporting the same ten guys running around in camouflage.

[Ali G. 37]

Not buying your assertion that a lot of anti-government people are committing acts of violence. Given that a lot of Americans are armed, there should as many political killings going on as often as "ordinary" crimes. Most of it is just talk and shouldn't be confused with the far more numerous who want to significant reforms in government without any violence at all.

People abroad get the impression there are hordes of miltias out there controlling large sections of the country based on reporting the same ten guys running around in camouflage.

If people overseas saw half of the loonies that are present here, they would have a 100 fold worse impression. For folks who have lived in this country all of their life, it may seem to be the norm. Hillbillies and those in ghettos owning guns is certainly not strange to you guys; so why would anything else be.

While I am not saying it's an epidemic, America definitely has the largest ratio of political loonies amongst first world countries. Your short history is full of examples of it.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Evidently quite a few in this country. Various people have a bizarre sense of government and democracy here. Many falsely assume every differing opinion on how to run things should be implemented, otherwise that gives you the right to 'bear arms' to get your point. Yes, even when the majority of voters disagree with you. That is not how civilized first world countries work. Over there, you have to convince others that your way is better, further, win over the majority of the people - the voters. Elections here are pointless as regardless of who wins, those not elected feel they should still have their way. Happened under Bush and it's now happening under Obama.

That's because we are NOT supposed to be a 'Democracy' like that.

We are supposed to be a representative republic. As I point out time and time again though, that is what we have gotten completely away from.

[Ali G. 37]

That's because we are NOT supposed to be a 'Democracy' like that.

We are supposed to be a representative republic. As I point out time and time again though, that is what we have gotten completely away from.

I looked into what the heck you are talking about and learned a thing or two. I never studied civics or learned about other forms of government. Interestingly enough, we are both right. Though, my point about not accepting who is in office still stands.

You are right in saying that currently the United States is basically a Direct democracy. On the federal level, the United States is a constitutional republic; however, on the state level, numerous states like CA are direct democracies. Where people get to vote on things like pro 8. Something I am not used to under the parliamentary system. This has its benefits but also has a lot of cons like prop 13, hence California's huge budget deficit. No sh-t, people are going to vote against taxes.

Here is the real kicker. You and I have in a sense been supporting each others views regarding government. One guess which system uses a 'representative democracy' - the parliamentary system.

Representative democracy is a form of government founded on the principle of elected individuals representing the people, as opposed to either autocracy or direct democracy.[1]

The representatives form an independent ruling body (for an election period) charged with the responsibility of acting in the people's interest, but not as their proxy representatives; that is, not necessarily always according to their wishes, but with enough authority to exercise swift and resolute initiative in the face of changing circumstances. It is often contrasted with direct democracy, where representatives are absent or are limited in power as proxy representatives.

Also, representatives sometimes hold the power to select other representatives, presidents, or other officers of government (indirect representation).

Edited April 20, 2010 by Ali G.