Our Founders Were Not Fundamentalists

[trillium13 84]

How many people told you that? Which groups did they want you to join? I don't I've experienced that.

Maybe I should phrase it differently. There are plenty of places where you're alienated if you don't believe what everyone else around you does. Is that my problem that I feel that way? Probably. But it happens.

[Ali G. 37]

I can't disagree with you when it comes to private property. I guess it comes down to the fact that there will always be people who feel they have to force their ideas onto others. A large number of people are just looking for reasons to be offended. Just because you believe differently than I do doesn't make you wrong. I guess there is a fine line there-but I really don't care what you put on your lawn. Just leave mine alone.

Government property is another story. It's not up to any government to decide what religion it supports and what ones it doesn't. Our government represents everyone (in theory) and therefore should remain neutral on the subject of religion.

Neutral is still supporting a particular belief though, as that is what atheism advocates. Like most from other first world countries, I see nothing wrong with the government celebrating along with the belief of its constituents. After all, the government is not some independent foreign body, it's there to present the people. I see nothing wrong with a local government having a Christmas, Hanukkah, Ramadan or Diwali event, if that is what its constituents believe.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Booyah

[Niels Bohr 72]

The founding fathers wanted children not be forced into religion. Instead, they wanted them to decide on their own according to Declaring Rights by Jack Racove.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Niels Bohr

[trillium13 84]

Neutral is still supporting a particular belief though, as that is what atheism advocates. Like most from other first world countries, I see nothing wrong with the government celebrating along with the belief of its constituents. After all, the government is not some independent foreign body, it's there to present the people. Therefor I see nothing wrong with a local government having a Christmas, Hanukkah, Ramadan or Diwali event, if that what its constituents believe.

There are millions of Americans with a large number of religious beliefs. By this logic, you would have the government support and celebrate all of them? If not, the government is not representing all of its constituents.

[Ali G. 37]

There are millions of Americans with a large number of religious beliefs. By this logic, you would have the government support and celebrate all of them? If not, the government is not representing all of its constituents.

There are also a handful of important days shared by hundreds of millions of people.

[Danno 1,228]

See if you can find the Preamble to your State and take note what they all have in common.

Alabama 1901 We, the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution...

Alaska 1956 We the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land...

Arizona 1911 We the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

Arkansas 1874 We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

California 1879 We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom...

Colorado 1876 We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe...

Connecticut 1818 The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy...

Delaware 1897 Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences...

Florida 1885 We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty... establish this Constitution...

Georgia 1777 We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Hawaii 1959 We, the people of Hawaii, grateful for Divine Guidance... establish this Constitution...

Idaho 1889 We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings...

Illinois 1870 We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil l, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors...

Indiana 1851 We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to choose our form of government...

Iowa 1857 We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings... establish this Constitution...

Kansas 1859 We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges... establish this Constitution...

Kentucky 1891 We, the people of the Commonwealth of Kentucky, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

Louisiana 1921 We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy...

Maine 1820 We the People of Maine... acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity ... and imploring God's aid and direction...

Maryland 1776 We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...

Massachusetts 1780 We... the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the goodness of the great Legislator of the Universe, in affording us, in the course of His Providence, an opportunity... and devoutly imploring His direction...

Michigan 1908 We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom... establish this Constitution...

Minnesota 1857

We, the people of the state of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings and secure the same to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Mississippi 1890

We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and involving his blessing on our work, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Missouri 1845 We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness, do establish this Constitution...

Montana 1889 We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty... establish this Constitution...

Nebraska 1875 We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom... establish this Constitution...

Nevada 1864 We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom... establish this Constitution...

New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience...

New Jersey 1844 We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors...

New Mexico 1911 We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty...

New York 1846 We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings...

North Carolina 1868 We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for... our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those...

North Dakota 1889 We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

Ohio 1852 We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common...

Oklahoma 1907 Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty... establish this Constitution...

Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences...

Pennsylvania 1776 We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance...

Rhode Island 1842 We the People of the State of Rhode Island... grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing...

South Carolina 1778 We, the people of the State of South Carolina... grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

South Dakota 1889 We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties... establish this Constitution...

Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience...

Texas 1845 We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God...

Utah 1896 Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we... establish this Constitution...

Vermont 1777 Whereas all government ought to... enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man...

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator... can be directed only by Reason... and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other...

Washington 1889 We, the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

West Virginia 1872 Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia... reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God...

Wisconsin 1848 We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility...

Wyoming 1890 We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties... establish this Constitution...

[scandal 951]

See if you can find the Preamble to your State and take note what they all have in common.

Alabama 1901 We, the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution...

...

Deist. One who believes in God.

Christian. One who believes in the Doctrine that Jesus Christ is the Savior of Man, is the Son of God, and was resurrected following the Crucifixion.

Danno --- did you by chance see any references to this Jesus Christ fella in all those state constitutions? No? What a shame.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Deist. One who believes in God.

Christian. One who believes in the Doctrine that Jesus Christ is the Savior of Man, is the Son of God, and was resurrected following the Crucifixion.

Danno --- did you by chance see any references to this Jesus Christ fella in all those state constitutions? No? What a shame.

Doh!

[Danno 1,228]

Deist. One who believes in God.

Christian. One who believes in the Doctrine that Jesus Christ is the Savior of Man, is the Son of God, and was resurrected following the Crucifixion.

Danno --- did you by chance see any references to this Jesus Christ fella in all those state constitutions? No? What a shame.

I think you are assuming my thoughts or intentions, I posted that in response to those who assume we do have.. or should have a government which is divorced from the spiritual.

Since you bring up Christ, we do have "history in that regard as well.

Mayflower Compact

First governing document

"Modern" version

In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, defender of the Faith, etc.:

Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith, and the honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one another; covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic; for our better ordering, and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience.

In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the 11th of November, in the year of the reign of our Sovereign Lord King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth, 1620.

Signers

John Alden

Isaac Allerton

John Allerton

John Billington

Richard Bitteridge

William Bradford

William Brewster

Peter Brown

John Carver

James Chilton

Richard Clark

Francis Cooke

John Craxton

Edward Doten

Francis Eaton

Thomas English

Moses Fletcher

Edward Fuller

Samuel Fuller

Richard Gardiner

John Goodman

Stephen Hopkins

John Howland

Edward Leister

Edmund Margeson

Christopher Martin

William Mullins

Digery Priest

John Rigdale

Thomas Rogers

George Soule

Miles Standish

Edward Tilly

John Tilly

Thomas Tinker

John Turner

Richard Warren

William White

Thomas Williams

Edward Winslow

Gilbert Winslow

--------

Original version as recorded by William Bradford

In ye name of God Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by ye Grace of God, of great Britaine, Franc, & Yreland, King, defender of ye Faith, &c.

Haveing undertaken, for ye Glorie of God, and advancements of ye Christian faith, and the honour of our King & countrie, a voyage to plant ye first colonie in ye Northern parts of Virginia; Doe by these presents, solemnly & mutualy, in ye presence of God, and one of another; covenant & combine ourselves together into a Civill body politick; for our better ordering, & preservation & furtherance of ye ends aforesaid; and by vertue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just & equal Lawes, ordinances, Acts, constitutions, & offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meete and convenient for ye generall good of ye Colonie; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience.

In witnes wherof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cap-Codd ye 11 of November, in ye year of ye raigne of our soveraigne Lord King James, of England, France, & Yreland, ye eighteenth, and of Scotland ye fiftie fourth, Ano: Dom. 1620.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

The Puritans are now the Founders of this country?

[Danno 1,228]

The Puritans are now the Founders of this country?

Do you have "country" and "nation" confused".

Check on that.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Do you have "country" and "nation" confused".

Check on that.

Right. Let's now disregard the actual Founders and refer back to the Puritans because they were here first. No wait...there were some natives here before...uh oh. Whose voice counts above others here? Hmmm...

[Danno 1,228]

Right. Let's now disregard the actual Founders and refer back to the Puritans because they were here first. No wait...there were some natives here before...uh oh. Whose voice counts above others here? Hmmm...

Okay, okay lets jump forward a few years shall we?

“This is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation… we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth… These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.”

— Supreme Court Decision, 1892 Church of the Holy Trinity Decision v United States

[Niels Bohr 72]

Hmmm....The Mayflower Compact was an English colony and has nothing to do with the USA since England ruled then.

[Niels Bohr 72]

Let me post the complete article Danno took from

[edit] 1885 Act

Contracts to import labor were forbidden by the U.S. Code, and specifically by an 1885 law prohibiting "the importation and migration of foreigners and aliens under contract or agreement to perform labor in the United States, its territories, and the District of Columbia."[1] The court held that a minister was not a foreign laborer under the statute even though he was a foreigner.

[edit] Court Decision

“This is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation… we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth… These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.”

— Supreme Court Decision, 1892 Church of the Holy Trinity Decision v United States

The court used the soft plain meaning rule to interpret the statute in this case. Justice David Josiah Brewer made a principle of statutory construction that "It is a familiar rule that a thing may be within the letter of the statute and yet not within the statute, because not within its spirit nor within the intention of its makers." Its decision stated that "the circuit court did err when it held that the contract hiring an English rector was within the prohibition of the statute, which disallowed a "...person, company, partnership, or corporation, in any manner whatsoever to prepay the transportation, or in any way assist or encourage the importation or migration, of any alien or aliens, any foreigner or foreigners, into the United States ... under contract or agreement ... to perform labor or service of any kind in the United States..."

[edit] Common Misattribution

The following text is often attributed to this decision by various sources, both for and against the concept of the USA as an explicitly Christian nation:

“Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of The Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian….”

This text is not from the Church of the Holy Trinity case nor from any other United States Supreme Court case, but is instead from the Illinois State Supreme Court’s Richmond v. Moore case of 1883.[2][3]

[edit] Posterior interpretations

This case is cited most often for its determination of how legislative intent can be determined. Justice Antonin Scalia has denounced the Holy Trinity decision as the "prototypical case" in which a judge follows the intent of the legislature rather than the text of the statute, and thus as being in opposition to his judicial philosophy of textualism. The textualist position holds that courts should follow the text of a law rather than attempt to read exceptions into the law in accordance with the legislative intent. Scalia has thus criticized the principle of the Holy Trinity case as "nothing but an invitation to judicial lawmaking."[4]

The case is also famous for Justice Brewer's statements that America is a "Christian nation." While this case was not specifically about religion, the court considered America's Christian identity to be a strong support for its conclusion. Almost half of the text of the opinion is spent demonstrating America's Christian identity, in order to show that congress could not have intended to prohibit foreign ministers. Referring back to this case in Public Citizen v. Department of Justice, 491 U.S. 440 (1989),[2] Justice Kennedy, joined by Chief Justice Rehnquist and Justice O'Connor, wrote:

"The central support for the Court's ultimate conclusion that Congress did not intend the law to cover Christian ministers is its lengthy review of the 'unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation,' and which were taken to prove that it could not 'be believed that a Congress of the United States intended to make it a misdemeanor for a church of this country to contract for the services of a Christian minister residing in another nation.'" Id., at 471.