Christianity has its nutbags too

[chri'stina 190]

One piece of wisdom I find precious among the Native Americans is their spiritual connection to nature. The notion 'worldly' should not be confused with nature, but of humankind's propensity to sin. So to be in this world, but not of this world doesn't mean to be disconnected to God's presence in all of creation.

Well again, that is your belief/opinion...I agree that by seeing nature we see the beauty and work of God but I don't personally think nature has a spirit or anything like that. JMO.

Christians believe that God is present EVERYWHERE (omnipresent), yes?

Everywhere is different than inside of everything. If I put water into a bowl, and then drop in solid pieces of plastic...the water is everywhere surrounding the plastic, but the water does not get inside solid pieces of plastic.

I know, I come up with the weirdest analogies!

Edited July 26, 2006 by stina&suj

[PsychoKat 0]

This is fact..

There was no canon of scripture in the early Church; there was no Bible. The Bible is the book of the Church; she is not the Church of the Bible. It was the Church--her leadership, faithful people--guided by the authority of the Spirit of Truth which discovered the books inspired by God in their writing. The Church did not create the canon; she discerned the canon. Fixed canons of the Old and New Testaments, hence the Bible, were not known much before the end of the 2nd and early 3rd century.

http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap030700.htm

I'm guessing then, that you don't believe the Bible is inspired by God? We have the original manuscripts, thousands of them. Are you saying the Catholic church is translating them their own way instead of actually taking those trained in the field of Greek, Arabic, and Hebrew languages? Or that they translated them way back in the day and never bothered to re-translate them correctly and therefore, the Bible isn't God-inspired?

I never understand why people make this argument, because WE HAVE THE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS. And those manuscripts say For God so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Some of those "original manuscripts" were put down in writing up to 100 years after the crucifixion.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

If I put water into a bowl, and then drop in solid pieces of plastic...the water is everywhere surrounding the plastic, but the water does not get inside solid pieces of plastic.

That depends on what kind of plastic you use.

[chri'stina 190]

It's been an interesting discussion and maybe later I can add more...but I have to go out for now. Just wanted to post this so people wouldn't think I'm disappearing from this convo on purpose.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I'm guessing then, that you don't believe the Bible is inspired by God? We have the original manuscripts, thousands of them. Are you saying the Catholic church is translating them their own way instead of actually taking those trained in the field of Greek, Arabic, and Hebrew languages? Or that they translated them way back in the day and never bothered to re-translate them correctly and therefore, the Bible isn't God-inspired?

I never understand why people make this argument, because WE HAVE THE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS. And those manuscripts say For God so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

No. Catholics do believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. But it was nevertheless written by humans and is full of human error. You have to discern God's Truth within the text without taking all of it in as God's word. Even the most fundamental Christians don't follow the Bible, word for word. And it wasn't a book until the early Church (Catholic) made it one almost 300 years after Jesus. Many Christians today forget that fact and have since put their entire faith in the Bible when that was NOT the original structure of the early Christian Church. The Bible is not the only source of revelation to God's truth. That's hard for many fundamental Christians to understand but if you look back in history you will see that is the fact.

[chri'stina 190]

If I put water into a bowl, and then drop in solid pieces of plastic...the water is everywhere surrounding the plastic, but the water does not get inside solid pieces of plastic.

That depends on what kind of plastic you use.

I knew someone would get technical. I should have said, non porous solid plastic.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

If I put water into a bowl, and then drop in solid pieces of plastic...the water is everywhere surrounding the plastic, but the water does not get inside solid pieces of plastic.

That depends on what kind of plastic you use.

I knew someone would get technical. I should have said, non porous solid plastic.

Let me ask you this. The jug is full of water. Water is God for the purposes of this analogy.

Now, I drop a piece of plastic into the jug. The plastic is surrounded by God. So far so good.

Now start dropping more plastic into it until you fill the jug. The water has spilled out. Does God no longer exist inside the jug?

[incanada1234 0]

No. Catholics do believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. But it was nevertheless written by humans and is full of human error. You have to discern God's Truth within the text without taking all of it in as God's word.

So essentially, you get to pick and choose what you believe.

[chri'stina 190]

If I put water into a bowl, and then drop in solid pieces of plastic...the water is everywhere surrounding the plastic, but the water does not get inside solid pieces of plastic.

That depends on what kind of plastic you use.

I knew someone would get technical. I should have said, non porous solid plastic.

Let me ask you this. The jug is full of water. Water is God for the purposes of this analogy.

Now, I drop a piece of plastic into the jug. The plastic is surrounded by God. So far so good.

Now start dropping more plastic into it until you fill the jug. The water has spilled out. Does God no longer exist inside the jug?

Mr. Gupta, I was just trying to use this for the analogy of something being everywhere yet not inside it...about the water spilling out...I believe a tiny amount of water would still be left inside trapped in small empty spaces. But I don't intend that the universe is like a jug of water, unless it was an infinite jug, never filled up.

I really have to go now.

Edited July 26, 2006 by stina&suj

[Sister Fracas 5]

Let me ask you this. The jug is full of water. Water is God for the purposes of this analogy.

Now, I drop a piece of plastic into the jug. The plastic is surrounded by God. So far so good.

Now start dropping more plastic into it until you fill the jug. The water has spilled out. Does God no longer exist inside the jug?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, very good....

[incanada1234 0]

I really have to go now.

Hurry back!

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

No. Catholics do believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. But it was nevertheless written by humans and is full of human error. You have to discern God's Truth within the text without taking all of it in as God's word.

So essentially, you get to pick and choose what you believe.

Don't we all get to believe what we want? You know, free will and all that. Sure, you may think we believe wrong and I may do the same. But we all get to believe as we please.

I happen to believe that the universe is a jug of water and we are just amoeba floating inside it. Except for stina&suj, who is a non-porous piece of plastic.

[chri'stina 190]

I really have to go now.

Hurry back!

I'll try...

[Karen_L 1]

Reminds me of a joke . . .

A recent arrival to heaven is getting the grand tour with St. Peter. As they stroll past the pearly gates, there is this huge wall that stretches up as far as the eye can see along along one side of heaven. Peter shows the new arrival all of the sights, introduces him to the different angels, takes him to Cloud 9 - all of the usual highlights, but never mentions anything about this tall wall. Finally, the new arrival asks St. Peter 'What is it with this wall?? "Oh that!" says St. Peter. "That is where all of the fundamentalist are - they were so convinced they would be the only ones to reach heaven - and we just didn't have the heart to disappoint them".

Christianity has its mad bastards too. Representative? I doubt it...

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=265144

"Something inside me is exploding to get out, and I don't know what it is. Its kind of like I want to do cartwheels around the neighborhood."

"Got that dancing feeling on the inside of me."

"I have been having rapture dreams and I can't believe that this is really it! We are on the edge of eternity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

"Whoa! I can sure feel the glory bumps..."

"I too am soooo excited!! I get goose bumps, literally, when I watch what's going on in the M.E.!!"

"I am excited beyond words that the struggle of this life may be over soon and I can finally be FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!"

I must have missed the spot in the Bible where Jesus tells us to rejoice in the suffering of others... Probably in the same place as the mythical 72 virgins.

What a bunch of evil-hearted, hate-mongering, incompassionate arseholes.

I LOVE how this person just assumes they will NOT be among the damned if the world were to end soon! Like it's a given that they would be chosen for Heaven if such circumstances were to unfold because they're just SO good and SO Godly and righteous Yeah, anyone who gets all happy and excited to see innocent people getting killed deserves eternal happiness alright! ...

Something very bad happened to Christianity about a hundred years ago. I think it was the Calvinists who came up with the misguided idea that a Christian is 'saved' (meaning they have a one-way ticket to heaven) if they simply ask Jesus into their heart. You can't have faith without works or works without faith. Many Christians today believe they belong to the exclusive club of heaven and that they're the only ones with valid memberships. They're in for a big surprise in the afterlife.

Agreed. There is most definitely a lunatic fringe of fundamentalist christianity plagueing certain areas of the United States. It's hardly new of course - the KKK were "doing God's work" for quite a long time.

But is it representative? From the majority of people I've met and spoken to both on and off VJ, I'd say no.

Of course, it won't be long before someone brings up the 'christians don't blow stuff up'. I'd agree. But I guess you have to ask - do citizens of a wealthy first world country really have any need to?

I'd say our (modern civilization) biggest battle is against fundamental thought (it effects even such things as science and public policy). The notion that there is only one right answer, that truth exists in absolutes. I think it is fair to say that a large number of Christians fall into that category. What's worse is they reject anything they deem as 'secular', no matter how much wealth of wisdom can be found in the literary works of a William Faulkner or James Joyce. If it's not the Holy Bible, it ain't from God...what a silly and infantile notion about truth and knowledge.

Completely true -- fundamentalism in all its forms is very dangerous. And I've always had to wonder -- if there is a supreme being that created everything and gave human beings a particular capacity to question and mold the world around them and the ability to desire knowledge, why that same God would make pursuing knowledge a "sin" and expect us to live around and obtain ALL our understanding of the world/life/creation from one single text, written hundreds/thousands of years ago for a society very different from the one we live in. I mean, why would God endow us with such intelligence and then expect us not to really use it?

Re Calvinism: I figured that this person was probably following Calvinist ideas regarding salvation/damnation. It's a philosophy/belief that I've NEVER agreed with. I'm not a devout Catholic, but as someone whose Catholic upbringing informs my religious/spiritual beliefs, I never could understand how superficially accepting a particular doctrine would be the only thing determining one's admittance into Heaven and actual actions/attitudes in life and towards others wouldn't count for anything. It ALWAYS makes me laugh because anytime I've ever spoken with someone with these beliefs they are 1) ALWAYS talking about Heaven and Hell 2) ALWAYS assuming they will go to Heaven and me, the dirty nonbeliever, to Hell 3) ALWAYS so ready to point out the fact that I will go to Hell. LOL -- it's a given, impossible to argue and if you DO argue it, you get a collection of Bible verses quoted back at you, like a text can be used to justify itself in a discussion.

Ah, well, whatcha gonna do?

Edited July 26, 2006 by Karen_L

[chri'stina 190]

No. Catholics do believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. But it was nevertheless written by humans and is full of human error. You have to discern God's Truth within the text without taking all of it in as God's word.

So essentially, you get to pick and choose what you believe.

Don't we all get to believe what we want? You know, free will and all that. Sure, you may think we believe wrong and I may do the same. But we all get to believe as we please.

I happen to believe that the universe is a jug of water and we are just amoeba floating inside it. Except for stina&suj, who is a non-porous piece of plastic.

ooh ooh to make it even more complicated...I don't believe I am non porous...I believe when you ask God to be part of your life he does dwell in you as well. I believe nature is non porous but that people can be porous if they want to be.

bye for now people....

Edited July 26, 2006 by stina&suj