The cat rant and rave

[visaveteran 0]

Mox, I do remember some angry comments from you about your ex American wife who cheated on you as I recall...and cheated a lot. You must have felt compelled to dredge up this old stuff and vent. So, are you so clean on this issue?

I think a lot of American men are angry about the state of gender relationships in the USA and that anger takes voice on this forum from time to time...often in a humorous vein as Why_Me has done. I don't see that as a bad thing. And you of all people should appreciate some jokes and snide comments here and there aimed at some subgroup of society.

Personally, I've never had an angry word to say abut my ex American wife and we are still very good friends to this day. I don't think I've ever mentioned her on here as there is no reason to. I don't need to vent.

But like many men, I find American women to be off putting in many ways and at many levels. I have some anger over some dating situations I had, and my general observations are that American women have lost their feminine mystique...and are more in touch with their "inner masculine."

I also think the more exposure I've had with Russian women, the less I've felt good about American women...they simply don't compare well to Russian women in most areas. And, frankly, Russian women have very few hang ups about sex (men's favorite subject!). They don't merely accept it, but seek it out aggressively and open-minded. Whereas American women walk around with a 3-inch think "rulebook" about sex, Russian women walk around with a one page "menu."

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

I honestly don't understand this need (not just you why_me, it's been a running theme in this forum for as long as I can remember) to run American or any other women down. Isn't it enough that we found somebody who makes us happy and leave it at that? Nobody's ever asked me to justify my decision to marry either the American woman from my starter marriage or the FSU woman from my current marriage, and I've never felt the need to justify it.

we differ on this Mox. If I receive bad service from a business, for example, I feel it is only fair to tell them that I will no longer be using that business "because...." It is a service to them to inform them that they are losing money "because..." If I say nothing and go on to another business, how does that business ever have the opportunity to correct its problems. It frustrates me to no end when I must deal with the gvernment's poor service and have no choice where to go after that.

Yes, my first marriage was to an American woman (this is my second marriage, for the record) I was young and didn't know any better and heck, they are everywhere, so what do you expect? Long story short we divorced after a relatively long marriage and I ended up taking a job assignment in Ukraine to get WAY away from that. This ultimately led to my meeting Alla by chance, though not in Ukraine for what it's worth. neither of us was looking for a foreign spouse, I met her completely by chance in the course of normal life.

That said, after two years in Ukraine there just was no way I would ever be interested in an American woman again. I mean, for me, it is an absolute deal breaker, or would be. I simply wouldn't take the chance, the odds are way to against it. Actually it took about 30 seconds to realize there was some huge differences which I liked very much. It is not that I feel a need to "bash" anyone, but it is a service to them to inform them why I would never have anything to do with one again. Maybe they will eventually change and realize the power they have lost. Maybe not and it is just gloating. Ok with me either way.

I do not feel I am "justifying" because I really couldn't possibly care less what someone else thinks about my marriage.

[visaveteran 0]

You recall correctly. I don't recall how much ranting I did about her here on VJ, and it's even conceivable that in my anger I might have even made disparaging remarks about "American women." I'm not perfect and sometimes impulsive in my posts. But one of the things that we're all here for is to provide support to other people, based on our own experiences. Based on my experiences, disparaging an entire gender in order to justify our own choices just creates negative energy. It is imho unhelpful. Better to concentrate on the positives.

Humor is good. I often partake in the humor myself, sometimes parodying some of the more misogynistic posting I see. But when the fun turns to nastiness towards an entire gender, it just creates a feedback loop of bitterness. We're all at various stages of starting a "new life" here, so why bring that kind of baggage?

This "baggage" costs men tens of thousands of dollars and long and difficult trips to distant lands...just to find a decent wife. When, ideally, we should find good women in our local neighborhoods. This is the pink elephant in the living room, IMO.

And Russia is only the tip of the iceberg...there are Chinese women, and Thai women, and Filipino women, and Colombian women. And on and on. American men are scouring the world for acceptable wives. Should we look to American women of today for some answers as to why men are undertaking long and difficult and expensive visa journeys?

Of course.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Humor is good. I often partake in the humor myself, sometimes parodying some of the more misogynistic posting I see. But when the fun turns to nastiness towards an entire gender, it just creates a feedback loop of bitterness. We're all at various stages of starting a "new life" here, so why bring that kind of baggage?

Agreed. It's just that it's difficult to keep my cool when I read post on here such as her's (HannahP). I mean some of the assumptions and generalizations from people...especially women on here that are made on this forum are too much to swallow. But then again I posted some broad generalizations in regards...and in my responses in regards to American women. I believe I did it for effect. From now on I'm going to try to bite the bullet and refrain from posting sarcastic reply's.

ah who am I kidding....of course I'm going to keep being sarcastic to posters such as her.....j/k

[SuperDuper! 230]

Technoviking says, Don't mess with the Mox.

[visaveteran 0]

It's about intentionality. If a man randomly meets a Russian woman and marries her, then who cares? Boy meets girl...end of story.

But when droves of American men shell out large sums of time, energy and money to intentionally look outside the USA for a wife, then we need to look at cause and effect. What social milieu exists within the USA to cause so many men to forsake American women? We all well know the hell we go through dealing with K-1 and CR-1 visas...the costs, the awful waiting, the difficult transition, the cultural differences, the language issues.

Why do we do it?

There can only be one obvious reason...those men keenly don't want an American wife. So any discussion of this phenomena is understandable. I don't think we can ever talk about ALL women, but we can talk about a preponderance of women. We can talk about trends. We can talk about social data and see what that tells us.

The emotional tone of some of these conversations--the anger or snide humor--is flowing out of wounds and hurt feelings and bad experiences. It is not unlike how so many men on the forum trash Russian men. Can we condemn all Russian men...no. Can we speak of trends with drinking, cheating, not caring for children...yes.

The topic of the US "gender wars" has been discussed for decades and many books have been written about it. It is still a topical issue.

[visaveteran 0]

You need a history lesson.

The internet dating scene did not exist in 1990 when American men started the movement to marry Russian women. I've heard about the magazines and newspapers devoted to match-making in Russia and here in the USA. And there were match-making agencies located in key spots in the FSU. And the first big US/Russian collaborative initiative to match American men to Russian women were the travel tours like "A Foreign Affair." Very expensive yet filled to capacity. Not exactly like shooting off emails to a dozen Russian women and hope you hit it lucky.

SAs to the data in the USA. The number of first time marriages between an American man and an American woman are the vast majority. Even second time marriages are most frequently between an American couple. But then you start to see more and more men marrying outside the US population. I doubt very few men marry a foreign wife the first go around. Yet that may be changing as the word of mouth reports about how great Russian women are spreads, we may see a bigger shift.

But this is nothing new...our grandfathers married many Japanese and other Asian women after the WWII.

[baron555 934]

But when droves of American men shell out large sums of time, energy and money to intentionally look outside the USA for a wife, then we need to look at cause and effect. What social milieu exists within the USA to cause so many men to forsake American women? We all well know the hell we go through dealing with K-1 and CR-1 visas...the costs, the awful waiting, the difficult transition, the cultural differences, the language issues.

Why do we do it?

VV, it sounds as if you are spending too much time reading and agreeing to the "hype" that these MOB agencies spew.

Large sums of time? YES

Large sums of money? YES

Large amounts of energy? (I'll take that to mean actually getting on the plane and then all the energy that comes after that.) NO

Very few men actually get on the plane; less than 5% by most folks who know about the real numbers.

So, why do we do it? I can't speak for them. Probably for all the "good" reasons.....unavailability of "adequate" women in their circle, poor luck with the locals, lure of foreign culture, lure of family values, lure of education, lure that these women will value them higher for their qualities then the locals, young hot & sexy.

I don't see the huge numbers of foreign women coming over to the US like many would like to see. We all are a very small minority.

[visaveteran 0]

Baron, I think you're pretty much right on the money.

I don't see an overwhelming influx of foreign brides...the numbers I found were around 12,000 foreign brides each year. In 1997 the number was 4,000, so it is growing but not really making a huge dent.

My thoughts on "the gender wars" is that this is just one manifestation...one symptom...of a decline in good relations between American men and women. The divorce rate might be another symptom or the growing number of women who cheat on their husbands. This is a newer phenomena. Now cheating is about equal between husbands and wives.

There is the growing tension at the work place as sexual harassment issues divide men and women, and create anger and resentment issues on both sides.

There is, IMO, universal confusion as to what is expected of a man and of a woman in these times? There are the bitter custody battles in court. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I think some of my reasons for turning to a Russian wife was a desire to get back to a more simple style of marriage and relationship.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Baron, I think you're pretty much right on the money.

I don't see an overwhelming influx of foreign brides...the numbers I found were around 12,000 foreign brides each year. In 1997 the number was 4,000, so it is growing but not really making a huge dent.

My thoughts on "the gender wars" is that this is just one manifestation...one symptom...of a decline in good relations between American men and women. The divorce rate might be another symptom or the growing number of women who cheat on their husbands. This is a newer phenomena. Now cheating is about equal between husbands and wives.

There is the growing tension at the work place as sexual harassment issues divide men and women, and create anger and resentment issues on both sides.

There is, IMO, universal confusion as to what is expected of a man and of a woman in these times? There are the bitter custody battles in court. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I think some of my reasons for turning to a Russian wife was a desire to get back to a more simple style of marriage and relationship.

As far as the "cheating is about equal between husbands and wives" quote in your post...negative. I read about this...in fact it was on the yahoo main page, and they did a study and the results of that study showed women were more prone (likely) to cheat then men. Of course I knew this for years, but now Iv'e read it.

[SMR 368]

The fact is vv, there are no hard numbers to say either way. I'm not going to get into a guessing game about something that has no measurable basis. If you want to believe that there's some kind of gender war going on in the US and that men are getting sick and tired of nasty controlling overweight harpies en masse, then believe away. I think it's a fiction borne of misdirected bitterness.

In any case, I stand by my original point: there's no reason to run down an entire gender population in order to justify our choices. It smacks of insecurity, and it only serves to empower those who would label our relationships anything but the serious endeavors that they are. You didn't marry your wife because of who she's not, you married her because of who she is. Celebrate that and be happy. I really don't have anything else to say on the subject.

I think Mox has a very strong point here. I guess I'm in the smaller contingent (according to VV) whose first marriage is to a Russian. I didn't marry her because she was Russian or because of what people said about Russians. I met her and liked her and after considerable effort convinced her to marry me.

The FSU woman/American man marriages are simply a matter of numbers. In the USA, there are more young men than young women. In the FSU, there are more young women than young men. I know that not only young people get married, but things are driven by these demographics.

I find the whole section of this thread about wife beating to be ridiculous. In every country and culture there are women who put up with being beaten. Domestic abuse is also a leading cause of divorce. I spent a couple years in the FSU and met many women who left their husbands who beat them, including my MIL. It didn't give them a sense of security or love.

[HannahP 119]

Finally, I don't recall any explanation about why your personal life is off limits...maybe you need to refresh my memory. You seem fine dishing it out but put up a wall to protect yourself when someone returns fire. Not the gentlemanly thing to do.

I hate to be that American ###### but I wasn't stereotyping you earlier. In the past, you've posted about your prior girlfriends in numerous countries. Your conclusions about what makes a 'successful' marriage are drawn upon your numerous relationships, remember? Women aren't retarded, despite what you might think.

[SMR 368]

I've read the "women cheat more than men" studies too, and I call bullshit. What these studies fail to take into account are the single men who are cheating with married women. (one study I read said that the percentage of men who don't know the woman is married is almost insignificant, so ignorant men don't really come into play) If you are having sex with a person you know to be married, you are cheating too, even if you're not married. It's a moral thing, and you are by no means excused from being a cheating scumbag just because you're the half of the cheating scumbag team that's not cheating on their spouse. By that definition, cheating is almost exactly 50/50. It takes two to tango.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but it doesn't have to be 50/50. The situation where women are more likely to cheat just means that multiple women are cheating with the same man. So the percentage of women that are cheating in that case would be higher.

I find these studies to be bogus simply because with sensitive subjects, such as cheating, I doubt you are likely to get honesty, even in a "anonymous" study. In order for the study to be scientific, it must involve the studier contacting people and not vice-versa. That means either calling or going door to door. Internet surveys wouldn't be scientific. If you tried to have people come to you, you will be limited and biased by the demographic that comes. In either situation, I think a lot of people would be hesitant to own up to cheating because even if they are promised anonymity, they know the studier has contact info.

That's a man's perspective. Would women be equally skeptical?

[visaveteran 0]

I think Mox has a very strong point here. I guess I'm in the smaller contingent (according to VV) whose first marriage is to a Russian. I didn't marry her because she was Russian or because of what people said about Russians. I met her and liked her and after considerable effort convinced her to marry me.

The FSU woman/American man marriages are simply a matter of numbers. In the USA, there are more young men than young women. In the FSU, there are more young women than young men. I know that not only young people get married, but things are driven by these demographics.

I find the whole section of this thread about wife beating to be ridiculous. In every country and culture there are women who put up with being beaten. Domestic abuse is also a leading cause of divorce. I spent a couple years in the FSU and met many women who left their husbands who beat them, including my MIL. It didn't give them a sense of security or love.

Many people in Russia never actually get married so it makes data on such things almost meaningless. I'd like your data source on abuse being the leading cause of divorce...I assume you mean legal divorce, not just walking out the door on a common law type arrangement. I doubt too many Russian men sweat divorce because there are no real consequences and they'll find a replacement "wife" the next day. I'd be more inclined to bet cheating is the bigger cause of divorce....or drinking too much.

[visaveteran 0]

Found an interesting article on Russia wife beating. Sorry, its a bit long.

Domestic violence in peasant Russia is well-documented. In fact, physical abuse was expected and accepted in the Russian peasant household.

Domestic Violence in Peasant Russia – The Culture of Wife-Beating

Wife-beating in peasant Russia was the most prevalent form of domestic violence, although other members of the household could abuse their son's bride, and the children produced by any marriage were often punished physically. Culturally, wife-beating was seen as natural, healthy, and necessary. Peasants even exchanged adages about the advantages of beating their wives, which described how physical abuse would make a woman work harder, speak less, and tolerate more from her husband. Moreover, during the Russian peasant wedding ceremony, the groom often held a whip to symbolize the wife-beatings that were to come after he brought his bride home to his family.

Domestic Violence in Peasant Russia – Alcoholism and Wife-Beating

In peasant Russia, vodka was a staple, especially among peasant men. This alcoholic beverage was so highly valued that it was often used as payment for goods and services. The consumption of vodka, however, increased the instances of domestic violence in peasant Russia. Beatings were often expected by wives upon the arrival of a husband who had just stumbled home from the village tavern. These beatings could be even more relentless than when the man was sober, and a woman could “trigger” a beating for any minor or imagined trespass.

Domestic Violence in Peasant Russia – Punishment and Escape

Most peasant women bore the abuse of their husbands as a matter of course. Some women ran away from their husbands, secured divorce, or sought aid from relatives. Relatives could intervene if the abuse was too excessive – clergymen or local officials might be petitioned in order to gain reprieve for the abused woman. Unfortunately, these cases were rare. The husband's family could then succeed in filing a counter-suit against his wife's family in such an instance, whereby the bride might be returned to her husband only to bear the abuse indefinitely.

Domestic Violence in Peasant Russia – Wives Beating Husbands

While wife-beating was the more common form of domestic violence in peasant Russia, peasant women were not completely free of blame. Wives beating their husbands was not unheard of. A peasant women was also equally able to became drunk and unruly or take advantage of the weaknesses of her spouse.

Read more at Suite101: Domestic Violence - Peasant Russia: Wife-Beating Was a Common Form of Physical Abuse in Rural Villages http://russian-ukrainian-belarus-history.s...a#ixzz0bgNldaSg