Engagement or Wedding???

[WeatherEmperor 21]

Hey guys,

Thu and I have been going back and forth the last couple of weeks because she wants to do a wedding party but I want to do an engagement ceremony. She wants to do the wedding party, everything without signing the marriage certificate to make it a legal marriage. I want to do the K1 just like the VJ Guides instruct you to do and I worry that if we do a wedding party, that even if we do not make the marriage legal by not signing the marriage certificate, that HCMC will not like it and suspect us of fraud. Should I just let Thu have her way and do the wedding party, or should I try harder to convince her that the engagement ceremony is what we need to do to just to play it safe for the K1?? Guys I will be honest here. I want to do the K1 by the book. I don't like ripples in the water if you know what I mean and I worry that this wedding party will screw up my K1.

<CARRICK>

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Explain to her that everyone who walks into the visa unit at the US consulate is presumed to be a fraud, and they are obligated to try to find a reason to deny the visa. If the CO has any suspicion at all that a K1 applicant is already married, then the visa is going to be denied. Arguing that the marriage is not legally binding is pointless - you don't want to try to play semantic games with this consulate. You'll lose every time.

If it's really that important for her to get married in Vietnam, then go the whole 9 yards and have a legal wedding, and file for a CR1. Otherwise, if you file for a K1 then have a Dam Hoi, and don't do anything that even remotely smells like a wedding. All it would take is one photograph of a wedding ceremony, or one phone call to a relative that says they attended your wedding ceremony, and the CO has everything they need to kick the petition back to USCIS for revocation.

You're absolutely right in wanting to do this "by the book". That is the only way she'll get a visa from consulate in HCM.

[Dai. 7]

Do the CR-1 and when she gets to the United States she gets her Green Card and her Social Security Card right away. Only think you need to file is Adjustment of Status which is 2 years when the green card expires.

[BinhJerome 14]

Let her have her way, it will not affect the K1 visa, also it will be nice for her family as most of them will not be able to actually attend the real wedding. Do not worry about the visa it will be fine, and if you have the wedding ceremony at the same time some people bring money for gifts. Our gifts almost paid for our party, and we did not have a small one. It was a 6 course meal for 100 people at the Van Thanh Tourist Center, it was very professional and nice. Jerome

[BinhJerome 14]

Explain to her that everyone who walks into the visa unit at the US consulate is presumed to be a fraud, and they are obligated to try to find a reason to deny the visa. If the CO has any suspicion at all that a K1 applicant is already married, then the visa is going to be denied. Arguing that the marriage is not legally binding is pointless - you don't want to try to play semantic games with this consulate. You'll lose every time.

If it's really that important for her to get married in Vietnam, then go the whole 9 yards and have a legal wedding, and file for a CR1. Otherwise, if you file for a K1 then have a Dam Hoi, and don't do anything that even remotely smells like a wedding. All it would take is one photograph of a wedding ceremony, or one phone call to a relative that says they attended your wedding ceremony, and the CO has everything they need to kick the petition back to USCIS for revocation.

You're absolutely right in wanting to do this "by the book". That is the only way she'll get a visa from consulate in HCM.

Jim, I disagree, if there is no paperwork then it is not a real wedding. She has to have paperwork that says that she is able to be married from authorities in VN, so this shows that she is NOT married. Also all she has to do if asked is tell them I have so many family members that would not be able to come to America for a wedding, besides most people that have a Dam Hoi have the "wedding" ceremony for the family. If we get denied for our visa and this is the reason I will be the first to post that was why. Binh took all of our photos and in these photos there were photos of our "wedding ceremony." Binh also said that the CO looked at every photo very carefully, the photos were the only real things that the CO looked at carefully during the interview. Carrick I truly feel you will be fine to let her have her way, within a month hopefully within the next week we should have our answer and I will post the reason or the approval asap. Jerome

[vietazn 1]

Engagement ceremony can only help. Wedding ceremony cannot help. Not the best time and place to be creative. So you know what you should do. Keep in mind if there is a wedding ceremony, in her mind and her relatives minds there might already be a marriage, so that everyone will start using words like chong. Therefore, words like that might accidentally be used in the interview. Perhaps compromise and do the dam hoi before getting the visa, and do the wedding ceremony in vietnam after getting the visa and that way you can pick her up and go together to the usa.

Personally, I think having a wedding ceremony when there is not a wedding yet is in itself a staged event. Don't know if the consulate people think the same way.

Edited October 22, 2009 by vietazn

[Kevin and 10]

Explain to her that everyone who walks into the visa unit at the US consulate is presumed to be a fraud, and they are obligated to try to find a reason to deny the visa. If the CO has any suspicion at all that a K1 applicant is already married, then the visa is going to be denied. Arguing that the marriage is not legally binding is pointless - you don't want to try to play semantic games with this consulate. You'll lose every time.

If it's really that important for her to get married in Vietnam, then go the whole 9 yards and have a legal wedding, and file for a CR1. Otherwise, if you file for a K1 then have a Dam Hoi, and don't do anything that even remotely smells like a wedding. All it would take is one photograph of a wedding ceremony, or one phone call to a relative that says they attended your wedding ceremony, and the CO has everything they need to kick the petition back to USCIS for revocation.

You're absolutely right in wanting to do this "by the book". That is the only way she'll get a visa from consulate in HCM.

I'm with Jim on this one. You don't want to start playing technicality games with the Consulate. They deny visas over clothes people wear in photos.

Don't have a marriage ceremony without filing for the marriage cert. And don't refer to her as your wife when speaking to the consulate if you don't have a marriage cert.

[lindal24 1]

In you're situation, I would highly recommend you DON'T start ANY petitions until you fully research the route you want to go.

It's going to be difficult since you're going through HCMC Consulate which srutinizes all cases. Instead of being denied for being guilty of fraud, you must prove your case in all aspects of anything the CO may find fradulent in order to be approved for the visa.

I would recommend that you don't go through with a marriage ceremony (even if you don't register)--unless you end up filing a CR-1--as it sends mixed signals. If you do this and file for a K-1, you will most likely get denied immediately for filing the wrong type of visa (in the minds of the CO...).

If your fiancee wants to do a marriage ceremony, give her what she wants but do things the right way. Work on getting everything prepared for the marriage registration first. After that, you can do the engagement ceremony and marriage ceremony together--that is customary and what I did...If you go this route, you can file for CR-1 and it will be easier and cheaper in the end. Still a lot of scrutiny, but worth it in the end when she's by your side in the states and you don't have to worry about anymore paperwork for another 2 years...

[hniHnitsuJ 8]

Do the CR-1 and when she gets to the United States she gets her Green Card and her Social Security Card right away. Only think you need to file is Adjustment of Status which is 2 years when the green card expires.

Go for CR1 is much better, cause K1 is pain in the (0-0). hihihi.. CR1 is much cheaper, and less headache when she in US.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Explain to her that everyone who walks into the visa unit at the US consulate is presumed to be a fraud, and they are obligated to try to find a reason to deny the visa. If the CO has any suspicion at all that a K1 applicant is already married, then the visa is going to be denied. Arguing that the marriage is not legally binding is pointless - you don't want to try to play semantic games with this consulate. You'll lose every time.

If it's really that important for her to get married in Vietnam, then go the whole 9 yards and have a legal wedding, and file for a CR1. Otherwise, if you file for a K1 then have a Dam Hoi, and don't do anything that even remotely smells like a wedding. All it would take is one photograph of a wedding ceremony, or one phone call to a relative that says they attended your wedding ceremony, and the CO has everything they need to kick the petition back to USCIS for revocation.

You're absolutely right in wanting to do this "by the book". That is the only way she'll get a visa from consulate in HCM.

Jim, I disagree, if there is no paperwork then it is not a real wedding. She has to have paperwork that says that she is able to be married from authorities in VN, so this shows that she is NOT married. Also all she has to do if asked is tell them I have so many family members that would not be able to come to America for a wedding, besides most people that have a Dam Hoi have the "wedding" ceremony for the family. If we get denied for our visa and this is the reason I will be the first to post that was why. Binh took all of our photos and in these photos there were photos of our "wedding ceremony." Binh also said that the CO looked at every photo very carefully, the photos were the only real things that the CO looked at carefully during the interview. Carrick I truly feel you will be fine to let her have her way, within a month hopefully within the next week we should have our answer and I will post the reason or the approval asap. Jerome

Yes, I know that you are technically correct. There have also been plenty of people on this forum who have said they had a wedding ceremony and it didn't cause any problems with the consulate. There are even people who have written emails to the consulate asking about this, and the consulate said that as long as the wedding wasn't legally binding then it wouldn't count as a wedding.

There are also people who said that the CO discovered pictures of both a Dam Hoi and Dam Cuoi in their collection of photos, and grilled the beneficiary about the wedding ceremony, who ended up in AP while the consulate investigated if a wedding actually took place. There are also people who said that the CBP discovered pictures of their wedding ceremony in their luggage when they arrived on a K1, and spent hours in a secondary interview. There was even one I recall (not from Vietnam) who was turned back by CBP because they had evidence a wedding took place. Prior to that, there was one (with a fiancee to Vietnam) who was stalled at USCIS for an extra four months because of an RFE they got as a result of including wedding photos with the petition - USCIS wanted an explanation and sworn statement that the wedding wasn't legal.

In my humble opinion, this is testing fate. If you have a choice, I don't see any benefit of choosing to do something that even remotely has a chance of causing problems. A Dam Hoi (or Le Dinh Hon) celebration serves the same purpose for the family and friends in Vietnam as an actual wedding ceremony. Aside from the fact that a couple are not expected to actually live together after a Dam Hoi, Vietnamese culture considers the couple to be married (as in committed to each other), but there won't be any doubt at the consulate that they are merely engaged.

I ripped into the poor photographer who took the pictures and video at our Dinh Hon ceremony and celebration. The photography and video were superb, but he wrote on the DVD case "Le Dinh Hon" across the top, and "Our Wedding" down the side! I apologized to him later.

There was also one member in a post last year that said that "everyone" who has a Dam Hoi also has a wedding ceremony in Vietnam. I don't know what most people do, but I do know that Phuong and I did not have a wedding ceremony. I've also met two other people in real life (not members of this forum) since I began traveling to Vietnam who have fiancees there, and they also did not have a wedding ceremony. They made the choice for the same reason we did - the consulate in HCM is difficult enough without trying to push the envelope of what you can get away with.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

[WeatherEmperor 21]

Thank you guys. Thank you so much. I do understand now that I should not take any chances especially since I will be dealing with the HCMC consulate. I will have to make Thu understand this. For all we know the wedding ceremony will not hurt us if we do not sign the marriage certificate. But, now I understand that I should not take that chance. I don't want our destiny left to chance. What I may do is, if we get the K1 approved and she can come to the US, we may go back to VN for 1 year anniversary thing so we can have a wedding ceremony there, just the ceremony nothing else.

[lindal24 1]

Let her have her way, it will not affect the K1 visa, also it will be nice for her family as most of them will not be able to actually attend the real wedding. Do not worry about the visa it will be fine, and if you have the wedding ceremony at the same time some people bring money for gifts. Our gifts almost paid for our party, and we did not have a small one. It was a 6 course meal for 100 people at the Van Thanh Tourist Center, it was very professional and nice. Jerome

JeromeBinh - Did you guys have a wedding reception where Binh wore a white dress and everything???

IMO-In Vietnam, you are technically considered married if you did (technically). The only reason I say that is because lots of times in Vietnam, people don't care about paperwork with the Dept of Justice there. You're not officially married because you didn't register, but you are technically married by VN standards.

Example: My brother and sister-in-law who both live in Vietnam got married over 10 years ago and started their family, etc. Well, when my dad went and petitioned for his son and son's family to come over earlier this year, they had to go register with the Dept of Justice to get the marriage registered for it to be accepted by USCIS.

There was also one member in a post last year that said that "everyone" who has a Dam Hoi also has a wedding ceremony in Vietnam. I don't know what most people do, but I do know that Phuong and I did not have a wedding ceremony. I've also met two other people in real life (not members of this forum) since I began traveling to Vietnam who have fiancees there, and they also did not have a wedding ceremony. They made the choice for the same reason we did - the consulate in HCM is difficult enough without trying to push the envelope of what you can get away with.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

We had a engagement ceremony right before our wedding ceremony. It is not uncommon practice for this to occur. Typically, the parents talk to each other to approve of the relationship first (not engagement). After some time, then they start talking about marriage (approximately 6 months to 1 year before the wedding...). At this point, you can choose to do the engagement ceremony then to make it official and have some waiting period before the wedding, OR you can choose to do the engagement ceremony right before the wedding.

Thank you guys. Thank you so much. I do understand now that I should not take any chances especially since I will be dealing with the HCMC consulate. I will have to make Thu understand this. For all we know the wedding ceremony will not hurt us if we do not sign the marriage certificate. But, now I understand that I should not take that chance. I don't want our destiny left to chance. What I may do is, if we get the K1 approved and she can come to the US, we may go back to VN for 1 year anniversary thing so we can have a wedding ceremony there, just the ceremony nothing else.

IMO-you may be better off getting married over there. It's cheaper and it'll satisfy more people (including your financee and her family!)

[Bernie C 24]

Doan and I had the full blown picture day (before sun up to after sun down). We also had a ceremony and reception. However this was all before we submitted our original K-1 petition. I clearly definde and stated in the original document submittal that we are engaged and plan to marry when she arrives to the US. We received no RFE's and nothing was questioned. This provides background and evidence that would conflict with an alternate determination at the consulate.

Again, in my time line and all our documents and proofs, we never use the words marriage, married, spouse etc...always refer to engamenment and engagement party even though it was the other. We will have to see what happens when we have Doan's interview (just sending DS-230 and DS-2001 now). We can only hope that all will be well. If it comes down to legality of the issue, there is no factual and objective evidence that supports a claim that we are married within the lawful jurisdiction of either country. If it causes us AP then so be it. We cannot recall the package we already submitted to the USICS as our original petition. Its in the books and approved. I have a number of valid and factual points to defend our position.

Now if these activities took place more recently there may be more burden to prove your status, but as we already submitted this up front for petition approval we have already estabished our case to be factual.

Anyway, I'll let everyone know when we get our interview scheduled and how we make out!

[BinhJerome 14]

Doan and I had the full blown picture day (before sun up to after sun down). We also had a ceremony and reception. However this was all before we submitted our original K-1 petition. I clearly definde and stated in the original document submittal that we are engaged and plan to marry when she arrives to the US. We received no RFE's and nothing was questioned. This provides background and evidence that would conflict with an alternate determination at the consulate.

Again, in my time line and all our documents and proofs, we never use the words marriage, married, spouse etc...always refer to engamenment and engagement party even though it was the other. We will have to see what happens when we have Doan's interview (just sending DS-230 and DS-2001 now). We can only hope that all will be well. If it comes down to legality of the issue, there is no factual and objective evidence that supports a claim that we are married within the lawful jurisdiction of either country. If it causes us AP then so be it. We cannot recall the package we already submitted to the USICS as our original petition. Its in the books and approved. I have a number of valid and factual points to defend our position.

Now if these activities took place more recently there may be more burden to prove your status, but as we already submitted this up front for petition approval we have already estabished our case to be factual.

Anyway, I'll let everyone know when we get our interview scheduled and how we make out!

We are the exact same as you. We both wrote sworn statements that say we are legally able to marry, and we are going to do this within 90 days of her arrival. Yes we had the wedding ceremony, the full blown thing, this was for her family, we do not call each other husband and wife, this was all done BEFORE we filed for a K1 visa. We had a Vietnamese wedding without the paperwork. Many people have been fine doing this and I am sure that some have had problems because of this. Everyone that is going through this process is not made of money or lottery winners, some people can not get back to take their fiancé or fiancée home with them once they get the visa. Most people can not afford to take off more than 2 weeks a year. I knew all this before I filed for our K1 visa, and we discussed the possibility that I might not be able to come back this year, so we went all out for her family's sake. I did not want to rob them of the joy of seeing their loved one having a wedding. Most people I have talked with that have had strictly a engagement party all say their family still consider them to be married, and this is without any type of ceremony. To answer Linda's question, yes she had the white dress after. I am sure you already knew this by viewing our photos in our profile. If it comes back to haunt us, so be it. I did what I felt was right for Binh AND her family, and I am more than prepared to deal with that later. I will also post as soon as we hear something, either negative or positive. From the day that our journey started, I have never second guessed any of my decisions and I will not start to do it now. What is done is done, would I have done things differently? NO and I can say that truthfully. I worry about the future and not the past. If I worry to much about something then I will miss the important things that are happening in the now moment. I think it is so sad that people would rob their loved ones family of such a moment, and that people are worried about getting a fiancée home in time for a tax break, joking or not, this is just wrong. I worry about getting Binh home for different reasons, I want her with me because I love her and I get tired of having a chat on a web cam, I want to be able to hug her and instead of cooking on the stove with my laptop behind me I want her behind me to sample as I cook. I know that if a person gets denied for photo evidence (not many different photos in different clothes) then they must have had a weak case, if a person gets denied solely because they had a wedding ceremony and are filing for a K1 then I think they did something else wrong, they did not have a police statement saying that they were able to marry, or did not address the letter clearly that they understood and knew they were going to get married within 90 days of her arrival to the united states, or the fiancée truly thought she was his wife already and told the CO that. If she is smart and if he is smart, they should be able to have a Dam Hoi without any problems. I am sure that the CO is looking for fraud, and he might try to nit pick something in a photo, but if your case is presented correctly then theory should be no problem at all. Point blank, this is not a perfect world, if it were then we would all go to visit our loved ones each weekend and then come home in time for work next week. We are not all made of money, and just making enough to meet the poverty level does not mean people can come back and forth 2 or 3 times during this process. When people say that they should go back for the interview, then go back for a Dam Hoi after they get a visa to take them home, I think is just unrealistic for most of us. Some people are lucky, I never thought I would EVER be able to come back for 3 trips in the same year. I got lucky due to my work situation, most people are not this lucky. Jerome

Edited October 23, 2009 by jeromebinh

[Dai. 7]

Doan and I had the full blown picture day (before sun up to after sun down). We also had a ceremony and reception. However this was all before we submitted our original K-1 petition. I clearly definde and stated in the original document submittal that we are engaged and plan to marry when she arrives to the US. We received no RFE's and nothing was questioned. This provides background and evidence that would conflict with an alternate determination at the consulate.

Again, in my time line and all our documents and proofs, we never use the words marriage, married, spouse etc...always refer to engamenment and engagement party even though it was the other. We will have to see what happens when we have Doan's interview (just sending DS-230 and DS-2001 now). We can only hope that all will be well. If it comes down to legality of the issue, there is no factual and objective evidence that supports a claim that we are married within the lawful jurisdiction of either country. If it causes us AP then so be it. We cannot recall the package we already submitted to the USICS as our original petition. Its in the books and approved. I have a number of valid and factual points to defend our position.

Now if these activities took place more recently there may be more burden to prove your status, but as we already submitted this up front for petition approval we have already estabished our case to be factual.

Anyway, I'll let everyone know when we get our interview scheduled and how we make out!

We are the exact same as you. We both wrote sworn statements that say we are legally able to marry, and we are going to do this within 90 days of her arrival. Yes we had the wedding ceremony, the full blown thing, this was for her family, we do not call each other husband and wife, this was all done BEFORE we filed for a K1 visa. We had a Vietnamese wedding without the paperwork. Many people have been fine doing this and I am sure that some have had problems because of this. Everyone that is going through this process is not made of money or lottery winners, some people can not get back to take their fiancé or fiancée home with them once they get the visa. Most people can not afford to take off more than 2 weeks a year. I knew all this before I filed for our K1 visa, and we discussed the possibility that I might not be able to come back this year, so we went all out for her family's sake. I did not want to rob them of the joy of seeing their loved one having a wedding. Most people I have talked with that have had strictly a engagement party all say their family still consider them to be married, and this is without any type of ceremony. To answer Linda's question, yes she had the white dress after. I am sure you already knew this by viewing our photos in our profile. If it comes back to haunt us, so be it. I did what I felt was right for Binh AND her family, and I am more than prepared to deal with that later. I will also post as soon as we hear something, either negative or positive. From the day that our journey started, I have never second guessed any of my decisions and I will not start to do it now. What is done is done, would I have done things differently? NO and I can say that truthfully. I worry about the future and not the past. If I worry to much about something then I will miss the important things that are happening in the now moment. I think it is so sad that people would rob their loved ones family of such a moment, and that people are worried about getting a fiancée home in time for a tax break, joking or not, this is just wrong. I worry about getting Binh home for different reasons, I want her with me because I love her and I get tired of having a chat on a web cam, I want to be able to hug her and instead of cooking on the stove with my laptop behind me I want her behind me to sample as I cook. I know that if a person gets denied for photo evidence (not many different photos in different clothes) then they must have had a weak case, if a person gets denied solely because they had a wedding ceremony and are filing for a K1 then I think they did something else wrong, they did not have a police statement saying that they were able to marry, or did not address the letter clearly that they understood and knew they were going to get married within 90 days of her arrival to the united states, or the fiancée truly thought she was his wife already and told the CO that. If she is smart and if he is smart, they should be able to have a Dam Hoi without any problems. I am sure that the CO is looking for fraud, and he might try to nit pick something in a photo, but if your case is presented correctly then theory should be no problem at all. Point blank, this is not a perfect world, if it were then we would all go to visit our loved ones each weekend and then come home in time for work next week. We are not all made of money, and just making enough to meet the poverty level does not mean people can come back and forth 2 or 3 times during this process. When people say that they should go back for the interview, then go back for a Dam Hoi after they get a visa to take them home, I think is just unrealistic for most of us. Some people are lucky, I never thought I would EVER be able to come back for 3 trips in the same year. I got lucky due to my work situation, most people are not this lucky. Jerome

Why didn't you file for CR-1 Visa Jerome if you had a full blown wedding in Vietnam. It would have been easier and you could bypass the AOS and EAD stuff and get the green card and social security card when she enters the US.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Dai_Tx