Government fees and services - what do we 'buy'

[Heracles 417]

You are comparing US dollars to American dollars which is slightly unfair since Australian dollars are only worth about .83USD. Thus the Australian tax brackets go up faster that it otherwise seems. Even so, the brackets are admittedly comparable for people in the lower brackets.

However, the only thing this data proves is that the US government provides less services but has comparable taxes. Why would that make me want to trust the US government with my healthcare?

Excluding third world countries, I don't know of many countries or ever heard of many countries that have such a distrust for the government they voted in. Therefore, does this say something about the government or does it say something about the people doing the voting?

I have also pointed out many times before that mainly 2nd and 3rd world countries use the presidential system. Great system in the 1700 and 1800's, not so much in the 21st century. The rest use the parliamentary system that seems to offer more accountability and less incompetence. Even with that noticeable difference aside, it's the people who hold the government accountable. Holding accountable does not mean hating on. People here treat those who work for the government like ####### then expect them to deliver. That doesn't work in the private sector and certainly does not work in the underpaid US government sector.

Personally, if I criticize something like the country's 2nd world infrastructure, I will criticize it to bring attention to the issue but will suggest we need to improve abc and invest more on def. Whereas, people here hate the government but when pressed for more info, most only continue with the I hate the government because they are incompetent at what they do. That is not how you improve or solve problems. On top of that, when someone like myself with international experience provides examples of efficient governments overseas and how they did it, all hell breaks loose as it touches a nerve and I receive a go back to your country or you think you're better than us.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Booyah!

[SMR 368]

You are comparing US dollars to American dollars which is slightly unfair since Australian dollars are only worth about .83USD. Thus the Australian tax brackets go up faster that it otherwise seems. Even so, the brackets are admittedly comparable for people in the lower brackets.

However, the only thing this data proves is that the US government provides less services but has comparable taxes. Why would that make me want to trust the US government with my healthcare?

Excluding third world countries, I don't know of many countries or ever heard of many countries that have such a distrust for the government they voted in. Therefore, does this say something about the government or does it say something about the people doing the voting?

I have also pointed out many times before that mainly 2nd and 3rd world countries use the presidential system. Great system in the 1700 and 1800's, not so much in the 21st century. The rest use the parliamentary system that seems to offer more accountability and less incompetence. Even with that noticeable difference aside, it's the people who hold the government accountable. Holding accountable does not mean hating on. People here treat those who work for the government like ####### then expect them to deliver. That doesn't work in the private sector and certainly does not work in the underpaid US government sector.

Personally, if I criticize something like the country's 2nd world infrastructure, I will criticize it to bring attention to the issue but will suggest we need to improve abc and invest more on def. Whereas, people here hate the government but when pressed for more info, most only continue with the I hate the government because they are incompetent at what they do. That is not how you improve or solve problems. On top of that, when someone like myself with international experience provides examples of efficient governments overseas and how they did it, all hell breaks loose as it touches a nerve and I receive a go back to your country or you think you're better than us.

Since no two countries have exactly the same system, I'm not sure what type of distinction you are trying to make between Presidential and Parliamentary. I assume it's more than the name of the head of state. I'd be interested to hear it.

Interestingly enough, every person I voted for in 2008, with the exclusion of the local school district superintendent, lost. Don't know what that means in terms of my success as a political supporter, but I think it gives me the right to criticize the current government without accepting the blame for putting them there.

I think the reason you have so many people in the USA against the government is that you have a lot of people like me who feel that the government should be a lot smaller.

In terms of helpful suggestions on the subject of healthcare, the real problem is that good healthcare in the USA is prohibitively expensive. There are a couple things that will solve this.

1: Tort reform. The average doctor in the US spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on malpractice insurance. Limit malpractice suits to intentional negligence and costs would be greatly reduced.

2. Eliminate Medicaid or force Medicaid to pay the same price as everyone else, on time. Medicaid payments are low and delinquent which forces health care providers to raise prices on everyone else.

3. Make laws to prevent insurance companies from dropping patients who become terminally ill. That is why people have insurance, to cover them if they have injuries or illnesses that are very expensive.

I have thoughts on fixing many other government programs, but I could go on for a while.

In terms of helpful suggestions from other countries, I have noticed the same thing you have. A lot of Americans are overly defensive about suggestions that they do it better somewhere else, even if in the next sentence they criticize how we do it here. Most of them don't have a passport. My point isn't that healthcare isn't efficiently managed somewhere else. I know there are a lot of countries where it isn't well-managed, but that is even less relevant.

I don't believe the people in Washington will do a good job, and I so I chose to trust them with as little as possible. Until the occurrence of concrete counter-examples, I will continue to believe that the government is inefficient. The proper solution is not to try and spend more resources making the government more efficient (which will have the opposite effect since more resources will be spent) but to simply put fewer resources into the government and then take care of ourselves.

[Heracles 417]

There is the problem right there. People get to vote on things like superintendents or school boards. Never heard of such a thing until coming here. In some cases that serves the city or county well, in many others, it is clearly disastrous.

I agree in smaller government but not in the way its implemented here. Contrary to belief you don't have smaller government here. You simply have a hell of a lot of small governments. Which adds up to one huge, yet inefficient, government. Instead of one state superintended or minister of education, each county and city has their own. As well as their own police chief, fire chief, school board, tax office, court system etc etc etc. End result is waste, waste and even more waste. It is basically communist style job creation and it away takes value from the services. It means more people being paid less than fewer better people getting paid more.

Counties and cities downunder, now only manage local planning issues and local citizen services; such as the county's infrastructure, parks etc. Everything else is handled on a state level. Not only does it bring economies of scale, it gets rid of the bureaucratic red tape and unnecessary duplication of everything. End result, government workers get paid more and in return perform better. Government gets to hire the best and brightest. It also means rather than paying for duplicated salaries, more money is actually spent on schools, paying teachers or for the police to do their job. I was shocked to see that many police districts here not only still use radar but don't even have breathalyzers. Many even rely on volunteers, hitting the bear for free. Why? because the district cannot afford it. Whereas, pool the money various counties spend on police together and watch the crime rate drop. The Police would also be better paid and better equipped.

People are barking up the wrong tree on this issue and totally missing the actual problem. Government is not the underlying issue, the form of government and it's structure is. The county system of government managing stuff like that worked great in the 17 and 18 hundreds; however, it fails America in 2009.

[Heracles 417]

The proper solution is not to try and spend more resources making the government more efficient (which will have the opposite effect since more resources will be spent) but to simply put fewer resources into the government and then take care of ourselves.

That is the thing, every example of a successful nation around the world in 2009 is doing the exact opposite. I am sure many here fell that the government is already in their business 24/7. For myself, I see the opposite. I feel the government is not doing enough to protect the people and ensure a fair and equitable system for all. Particular against large and powerful special interest groups.

Plus the reality that only third world countries have the government stay out of their lives and allow anyone to do as they please. Not onyl does this breed corruption but it ensures the poor remain dirt poor and the rich remain mega rich; which is what is happening in America.

[mawilson 2,133]

Instead of one state superintended or minister of education, each county and city has their own. As well as their own police chief, fire chief, school board, tax office, court system etc etc etc.

And thank God for that - that's what makes America America. #### central governments.

[Heracles 417]

Instead of one state superintended or minister of education, each county and city has their own. As well as their own police chief, fire chief, school board, tax office, court system etc etc etc.

And thank God for that - that's what makes America America.

You mean inefficient and ranked poorly in test scores

I'll spare us the crime stats.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

Instead of one state superintended or minister of education, each county and city has their own. As well as their own police chief, fire chief, school board, tax office, court system etc etc etc.

And thank God for that - that's what makes America America.

You mean inefficient and ranked poorly in test scores

I'll spare us the crime stats.

You sound just like Haza. Are you guys bum buddies?

[Heracles 417]

You sound just like Haza. Are you guys bum buddies?

It's haza here.

I just like how I am shelling you guys with actual facts yet no one will accept them.

nah nah nah they are all wrong

Edited September 3, 2009 by Booyah!

[Ban Hammer 12,897]

Instead of one state superintended or minister of education, each county and city has their own. As well as their own police chief, fire chief, school board, tax office, court system etc etc etc.

And thank God for that - that's what makes America America.

You mean inefficient and ranked poorly in test scores

I'll spare us the crime stats.

You sound just like Haza. Are you guys bum buddies?

noob! check the name history.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

You sound just like Haza. Are you guys bum buddies?

It's haza here.

I know, I was just busting your chops!

[mawilson 2,133]

Instead of one state superintended or minister of education, each county and city has their own. As well as their own police chief, fire chief, school board, tax office, court system etc etc etc.

And thank God for that - that's what makes America America.

You mean inefficient and ranked poorly in test scores

I highly doubt the poor rankings in maths have much to do with the structure of state and local governments.

[Heracles 417]

I highly doubt the poor rankings in maths have much to do with the structure of state and local governments.

The inefficiencies are everywhere. It's a government model that no longer works and the results speak for themselves.

It's the reason why people like Danno say the government is so crappy. Rather than picking the best method and pooling resources together, every county and city has their own mini government. Or are you going to tell me that having 6,882 superintendents and police chiefs is smart, instead of just 100?

[spookyturtle 9,465]

I highly doubt the poor rankings in maths have much to do with the structure of state and local governments.

The inefficiencies are everywhere. It's a government model that no longer works and the results speak for themselves.

It's the reason why people like Danno say the government is so crappy. Rather than picking the best method and pooling resources together, every county and city has their own mini government. Or are you going to tell me that having 6,882 superintendents and police chiefs is smart, instead of just 100?

Yea, I'd really value what Danno has to say about the government.

[mawilson 2,133]

I highly doubt the poor rankings in maths have much to do with the structure of state and local governments.

The inefficiencies are everywhere. It's a government model that no longer works and the results speak for themselves.

It's the reason why people like Danno say the government is so crappy. Rather than picking the best method and pooling resources together, every county and city has their own mini government. Or are you going to tell me that having 6,882 superintendents and police chiefs is smart, instead of just 100?

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Smaller governments are easier to manage.

Imagine if all EU countries had one giant central government in Brussels that dictated what they could

and could not do? Oh wait, they do. It sucks and it doesn't work.

[SMR 368]

The real reason I value having most services provided by a local government is that the government can be held accountable. It's obvious that a central system is more efficient. However, the average citizen has no control over such a large government. The point with the local school superintendent is that some people didn't like what she was doing and were able to hold her accountable and get someone new. If the system had been larger, ordinary citizens would not have been able to hold the system accountable without large amounts of campaign money.

You have to realize that the US government was intentionally designed to be inefficient. That's what checks and balances means. It means the founding fathers designed a government that is supposed to keep itself from doing too much, too fast. To understand the US government, you have to understand the people that designed it. From the beginning America is populated by people that don't trust government.

Dictatorship is efficient. Democracy never has been. Any time you make the government efficient, it becomes concentrated and powerful. Then, that power can be abused.

Also, anybody who talks about government vs. special interest groups doesn't understand the situation. Government is a special interest group. The people in government have an interest in staying in power and obtaining personal gain. There are some virtuous people in government, but they are few and far between. I know the problem of corrupt government isn't limited to the US. Half a dozen British Ministers recently resigned under allegations of corruption.

Point is, centralized government is more efficient. But you don't know what it is efficient at doing. So really, you have two choices. Or really two schools of thought. Any proper solution has to be a balance between the two. 1. Create an efficient government and give it huge amounts of power so that it can run things efficiently. 2. Create an inefficient government and give it as little responsibility as possible so that it doesn't create any more waste than it has to. I lean towards option 2.

Edited September 3, 2009 by SMR