Los Angeles approves plan to turn over 250 public schools to private operators

[Heracles 417]

Failing urban public schools should be turned into boarding schools. They can't play the fool after school if they're still at school!!

Public schools in more affluent areas are much better maintained and equipt than ones in poorer neighborhoods. Funds for schools across the state should be appropriated by the number of students, not which neighborhood they are in. That's really the crux of the problem.

Australia is now ranked 1st in world in terms of education Index. So how did they do it? First off, a parent can choose to send their kids to either public or private schools and the state government will still allocate the same amount, per student, to their school of choice. A bit of healthy competition never hurt anyone.

The other difference is that they got rid of cities and counties taking care of schools. Only the state manages the schools. Therefore, they saved billions and pumped that straight back into the schools and paying teachers a fair wage. I calculated not to long ago that Fairfax county alone in VA spends $110 million each year on administration. That is one county. Think about how many hundreds of cities and counties this one state has duplicating school boards, superintendents etc etc. Huge waste. Now expand that to include the other 3,441 counties in the US.

The state of Victoria there just approved the trial of a performance based rewards system. Teachers can earn up to $7,000 a year individually as well as a additional performance based incentive; one based on the schools overall performance. On top of that teachers start on about $50K there. The rewards are approved and allocated by an independent board, which obviously looks at each school individually. Schools in poorer and tougher areas will receive more consideration.

Final difference, unless you're in a private school they don't have elected school boards that get to call the shots, basically based on their opinion. Not to my wife's surprise, I had an argument with our local school board member not too long ago about the system. I explained how people who are actually qualified in education get to research and decide on curriculum and ideal approaches, rather than school boards there. He obviously disagreed with that, for obvious reasons. Luckily I had the three PDF's on math, science and literacy scores in my phone. As well as the link to the UN report which ranks Australia first in the world. He stumbled after that.

Edited August 28, 2009 by haza

[Heracles 417]

Whether people admit it or not, another issue with education here is attitude towards it. You cannot force someone to learn. The schools cannot even pass uniform rules to have every student focus on learning rather than being cool.

Black, White, brown kids increasingly are growing up in areas and surrounded by people who don't care about learning. People who obviously have the attitude that if they cannot become an athlete, rapper or entertainer, they simply resort to drugs and crime. That is the biggest obstacle here; yes, attitude. How do you explain to a poor kid that they should get an education and become something while Ryan Seacrest is earning $45 million to host a show? The equivalent downunder may be on $200K so it's not that hard to say get an education to better yourself. Now, in wealthier areas here, people have there kids focused on getting an education and building something for themselves. This is clearly not the case in poorer areas.

The hardest thing to change is attitude and ideology. Once it's programmed into someone, it's very hard to alter. To be honest, this is something that I don't have a clue on how to fix. My parents were immigrants and took great pride in everything they did; from raising their kids to taking care of their house and neighborhood. Furthermore, adults worked in a unofficial tag team to discipline and set us kids straight. Try telling someone else's kid off now and you are looking for a fight or lawsuit. Furthermore, how do I go speak to someone who cannot even be bothered picking up the trash outside their house or simply spending $30 to paint their house, to look nice. Let alone trying, even pleading, to convince them to stay on their kids back and work with them to get an education. The second I open my mouth, I know for a fact, I will receive a, "you ain't telling me what to do".

Edited August 28, 2009 by haza

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Failing urban public schools should be turned into boarding schools. They can't play the fool after school if they're still at school!!

Public schools in more affluent areas are much better maintained and equipt than ones in poorer neighborhoods. Funds for schools across the state should be appropriated by the number of students, not which neighborhood they are in. That's really the crux of the problem.

Australia is now ranked 1st in world in terms of education Index. So how did they do it? First off, a parent can choose to send their kids to either public or private schools and the state government will still allocate the same amount, per student, to their school of choice. A bit of healthy competition never hurt anyone.

The other difference is that they got rid of cities and counties taking care of schools. Only the state manages the schools. Therefore, they saved billions and pumped that straight back into the schools and paying teachers a fair wage. I calculated not to long ago that Fairfax county alone in VA spends $110 million each year on administration. That is one county. Think about how many hundreds of cities and counties this one state has duplicating school boards, superintendents etc etc. Huge waste. Now expand that to include the other 3,441 counties in the US.

The state of Victoria there just approved the trial of a performance based rewards system. Teachers can earn up to $7,000 a year individually as well as a additional performance based incentive; one based on the schools overall performance. On top of that teachers start on about $50K there. The rewards are approved and allocated by an independent board, which obviously looks at each school individually. Schools in poorer and tougher areas will receive more consideration.

Final difference, unless you're in a private school they don't have elected school boards that get to call the shots, basically based on their opinion. Not to my wife's surprise, I had an argument with our local school board member not too long ago about the system. I explained how people who are actually qualified in education get to research and decide on curriculum and ideal approaches, rather than school boards there. He obviously disagreed with that, for obvious reasons. Luckily I had the three PDF's on math, science and literacy scores in my phone. As well as the link to the UN report which ranks Australia first in the world. He stumbled after that.

Do the US a favor, go home. I hate to see you suffer so much while you are here. Go whine where someone will care.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Failing urban public schools should be turned into boarding schools. They can't play the fool after school if they're still at school!!

Public schools in more affluent areas are much better maintained and equipt than ones in poorer neighborhoods. Funds for schools across the state should be appropriated by the number of students, not which neighborhood they are in. That's really the crux of the problem.

Australia is now ranked 1st in world in terms of education Index. So how did they do it? First off, a parent can choose to send their kids to either public or private schools and the state government will still allocate the same amount, per student, to their school of choice. A bit of healthy competition never hurt anyone.

The other difference is that they got rid of cities and counties taking care of schools. Only the state manages the schools. Therefore, they saved billions and pumped that straight back into the schools and paying teachers a fair wage. I calculated not to long ago that Fairfax county alone in VA spends $110 million each year on administration. That is one county. Think about how many hundreds of cities and counties this one state has duplicating school boards, superintendents etc etc. Huge waste. Now expand that to include the other 3,441 counties in the US.

The state of Victoria there just approved the trial of a performance based rewards system. Teachers can earn up to $7,000 a year individually as well as a additional performance based incentive; one based on the schools overall performance. On top of that teachers start on about $50K there. The rewards are approved and allocated by an independent board, which obviously looks at each school individually. Schools in poorer and tougher areas will receive more consideration.

Final difference, unless you're in a private school they don't have elected school boards that get to call the shots, basically based on their opinion. Not to my wife's surprise, I had an argument with our local school board member not too long ago about the system. I explained how people who are actually qualified in education get to research and decide on curriculum and ideal approaches, rather than school boards there. He obviously disagreed with that, for obvious reasons. Luckily I had the three PDF's on math, science and literacy scores in my phone. As well as the link to the UN report which ranks Australia first in the world. He stumbled after that.

Duplicate post.

Edited August 28, 2009 by spookyturtle

[Heracles 417]

Do the US a favor, go home. I hate to see you suffer so much while you are here. Go whine where someone will care.

Dude shut up and get a life. For someone who is too good to post anything serious and views everything here as entertainment, you do spend a lot of time here; especially considering you joined in 2008 yet have a gazillion post count.

Edited August 28, 2009 by haza

[Danno 1,228]

Failing urban public schools should be turned into boarding schools. They can't play the fool after school if they're still at school!!

Public schools in more affluent areas are much better maintained and equipt than ones in poorer neighborhoods. Funds for schools across the state should be appropriated by the number of students, not which neighborhood they are in. That's really the crux of the problem.

Urban districts in NJ get a lot more money than suburban districts do and yet perform at levels way below those in suburban districts.

So no - funds are not the crux of the problem.

Per student? I'd like to see the stats. Just in terms of the conditions of the schools - there are stark differences. So either the urban schools are simply not spending all that extra money on upkeep and new construction, or maybe they just don't have the amount of funds that schools in more affluent neighborhoods have?

Stephen I know you mean well but we have lost a few generations of Students now chasing this myth of yours.

I went to a school that was built in like 1898, there was order, it was neat and when the Principle walked in the lunch room the place hushed, if he saw anyone acting out of order he would point at them and say "YOU.. up to my office".

I relocated to a new school, place was beautiful really but not near the order or learning environment.

Very few subject require elaborate facilities, in fact in our Best days of education, most schools were quite modest.

You can teach Math in a barn.... but you must have a real Teacher... and order.

The one thing the worst schools all have in common is lack of order.

[Azzudiin 26]

Tenure is the problem, the whole concept is utter garbage.

Lets give a person a job, pay them for 12 months, make them work 9. After 2 years make them immune to discplinery action of any kind.

Eliminate tenure system and actually expect teachers to perform in their jobs, you would see marked improvement in the education system. Buildings do not teach students, Teachers do. We constantly throw money at the building and infrastructure but as long as tenure exists the education system will continue to do poorly.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Ok, the data is easier to find than I thought.

Newark. POS District. Overrun by gangs. Doesn't get much worse than this. Spending per pupil is $18,580. State average is $12,776.

Bernards. Very wealthy. High achieving. Blue Ribbon and all that jazz. Spending per pupil is $11,082.

Source: http://php.app.com/rc_finances_all/search.php

Kids coming from families that care about their education will very likely succeed and those that don't very likely won't. No amount of money thrown at any school will ever change that. Parents have a responsibility when it comes to the upbringing and schooling of their children. If parents don't take that responsibility seriously or wish to offload it entirely onto the school system, then their kids will be failures.

[Heracles 417]

Ok, the data is easier to find than I thought.

Newark. POS District. Overrun by gangs. Doesn't get much worse than this. Spending per pupil is $18,580. State average is $12,776.

Bernards. Very wealthy. High achieving. Blue Ribbon and all that jazz. Spending per pupil is $11,082.

Source: http://php.app.com/rc_finances_all/search.php

Kids coming from families that care about their education will very likely succeed and those that don't very likely won't. No amount of money thrown at any school will ever change that. Parents have a responsibility when it comes to the upbringing and schooling of their children. If parents don't take that responsibility seriously or wish to offload it entirely onto the school system, then their kids will be failures.

exactly. I went to school with kids who had money, had the latest and greatest, yet their parents didn't give a #######. Many of them are now dropkicks and abusing drugs.

The school system has become a babysitter; even a parent to some. There is only so much they can do when they are dealing with thousands of kids.

[Heracles 417]

Tenure is the problem, the whole concept is utter garbage.

Lets give a person a job, pay them for 12 months, make them work 9. After 2 years make them immune to discplinery action of any kind.

Eliminate tenure system and actually expect teachers to perform in their jobs, you would see marked improvement in the education system. Buildings do not teach students, Teachers do. We constantly throw money at the building and infrastructure but as long as tenure exists the education system will continue to do poorly.

While tenure can keep some poor performing teachers in the system, it's not exactly the problem. The NE states are notorious for their union antics; where you cannot even get a job without being a union member. That is mob style rule and doesn't allow the best teachers to apply or stay; rather, the best connected. Also explains why those states are performing so poorly when compared to others.

Other issue, support. Supporting teachers is almost non-existent here. I wouldn't do that job in a million years, as I would serving time for federal crimes against douche bag parents. While not every parent is the same, it's highly demotivating to hear a lot of the stories, from teachers, about their experiences. Teaching is the third most stressful occupation.

Only adding salt to the wound is the wage issue. Teachers in my county alone have to live elsewhere because they cannot afford to live here. So how do we expect them to perform when we don't care to pay them accordingly? It's the equivalent paying a person a walmart salary yet expecting them to work on a Saks fifth avenue level. If I was a teacher, I would tell the county where to stick their school and their freagin kids.

Edited August 28, 2009 by haza

[HAL 9000 96]

Failing urban public schools should be turned into boarding schools. They can't play the fool after school if they're still at school!!

Public schools in more affluent areas are much better maintained and equipt than ones in poorer neighborhoods. Funds for schools across the state should be appropriated by the number of students, not which neighborhood they are in. That's really the crux of the problem.

Communist, I am watching you.

Failing urban public schools should be turned into boarding schools. They can't play the fool after school if they're still at school!!

Public schools in more affluent areas are much better maintained and equipt than ones in poorer neighborhoods. Funds for schools across the state should be appropriated by the number of students, not which neighborhood they are in. That's really the crux of the problem.

Urban districts in NJ get a lot more money than suburban districts do and yet perform at levels way below those in suburban districts.

So no - funds are not the crux of the problem.

Is that on a per student basis?

[HAL 9000 96]

Failing urban public schools should be turned into boarding schools. They can't play the fool after school if they're still at school!!

Public schools in more affluent areas are much better maintained and equipt than ones in poorer neighborhoods. Funds for schools across the state should be appropriated by the number of students, not which neighborhood they are in. That's really the crux of the problem.

Urban districts in NJ get a lot more money than suburban districts do and yet perform at levels way below those in suburban districts.

So no - funds are not the crux of the problem.

Prince Georges county, MD = poorest area in DC.

Loudon County, VA = Highest earning households in the US

Prince Georges County spends about $13K per student

Loudon County spends about $10K per student.

One guess who is the worst performer in the area.

Can I have two guesses?

Failing urban public schools should be turned into boarding schools. They can't play the fool after school if they're still at school!!

Public schools in more affluent areas are much better maintained and equipt than ones in poorer neighborhoods. Funds for schools across the state should be appropriated by the number of students, not which neighborhood they are in. That's really the crux of the problem.

Urban districts in NJ get a lot more money than suburban districts do and yet perform at levels way below those in suburban districts.

So no - funds are not the crux of the problem.

Per student? I'd like to see the stats. Just in terms of the conditions of the schools - there are stark differences. So either the urban schools are simply not spending all that extra money on upkeep and new construction, or maybe they just don't have the amount of funds that schools in more affluent neighborhoods have?

Yes, per student. Take my word for it for now, stats will have to wait. Urban schools are in better condition here too. Newer buildings, top notch security systems. Heck Newark runs their HR on PeopleSoft which is hella expensive. New Jersey takes money from suburban taxpayers and funnels them into urban areas. It's been a total failure.

Newer buildings do not equal better students

Memories from my teaching days-

The State of FL back in the day spent ~$5K per student per year as a base. If I remember the breakdown, that meant 80% of the funds going to overhead (trickling down to instructional) costs and the other 20% to the each district's waste apparatus.

This does not include money spent on physical assets (school building, access to technology, etc) that enhance a student's educational experience.

[HAL 9000 96]

Ok, the data is easier to find than I thought.

Newark. POS District. Overrun by gangs. Doesn't get much worse than this. Spending per pupil is $18,580. State average is $12,776.

Bernards. Very wealthy. High achieving. Blue Ribbon and all that jazz. Spending per pupil is $11,082.

Source: http://php.app.com/rc_finances_all/search.php

Well, just from what I seen around LA, the inner city schools are a stark contrast to the schools where I live in OC. I know that is anecdotal, but I've also read in the local papers about how many of the schools are literally falling apart due to lack of sufficient funds. It appears that it is more complicated problem than just about funding, but funding does play a factor.

Not to mention the actual 'cost' of running things in urban areas is inflated above the 'cost' of doing things in suburbia, plus classroom overcrowding, and all the other obvious social issues that do not stay out of the classroom.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Ok, the data is easier to find than I thought.

Newark. POS District. Overrun by gangs. Doesn't get much worse than this. Spending per pupil is $18,580. State average is $12,776.

Bernards. Very wealthy. High achieving. Blue Ribbon and all that jazz. Spending per pupil is $11,082.

Source: http://php.app.com/rc_finances_all/search.php

Well, just from what I seen around LA, the inner city schools are a stark contrast to the schools where I live in OC. I know that is anecdotal, but I've also read in the local papers about how many of the schools are literally falling apart due to lack of sufficient funds. It appears that it is more complicated problem than just about funding, but funding does play a factor.

Not to mention the actual 'cost' of running things in urban areas is inflated above the 'cost' of doing things in suburbia, plus classroom overcrowding, and all the other obvious social issues that do not stay out of the classroom.

There's the typical talking point repeated here - that you can't simply throw money at the problem, however, the problem isn't that simple. Just in terms of building upkeep, and adequate supplies for the teachers and students, there should be no blatantly visible discrepancy between public schools in affluent communities and public schools in poorer areas. I wonder if the per student cost is really a good way to measure adequacy of funding when each school will have it's own unique costs incurred?

Edited August 28, 2009 by Col. 'Bat' Guano

[Heracles 417]

The examples of so many school districts receiving more money yet still performing poorly speaks for itself. Look at all the hundreds of millions DC schools receive yet are ranked the worst in the country.

At some point, responsibility to learn must fall on the parents and ultimately the student, rather than everyone else. When kids are surrounded by other kids who don't want to or care about learning, they're not going to learn. it's as simple as that. I have a number of cousins whose folks sent them to best private schools, spent in excess of $80K for their k7 to 12 education, yet these kids barely passed. Yet other cousins went to public schools in the 70's and 80's, when not even $1k was spent per student, yet ended up doctors, lawyers, scientist and engineers.