President Reagan speaks about Socialized medicine.

[_Simpson_ 250]

Or, it will not. I tend to read what's actually written.

OK then READ THIS...It will be cheaper for employers to pay the 8% penalty than to provide their employees health care benefits. Believe me I have a business and I know how much it costs to provide so........

Show us what, exactly, is the penalty fee- 8% based on what, vs. the money you'd pay up- we need specifics to read since you want to get into details. It may be a case of you not picking a very competitive insurer for your employees.

There isn't a single proposal out there to socialize medicine in the US. Not one. But you seem to have fun attacking strawmen. Keep at it while the rest of the country focuses on real issues.

Where do you think Obama's health care plan would lead to, theres no reason for employers to provide insurance for there workers. If we go this route it will eventually become socialized.

The horror... the horror... It might lead to a rational system enjoyed by the overwhelming majority of developed nations... The horror... the horror... the horror...

Do you even know what it was we were debating? Let me give you a hint - what this reform bill would lead to, not if it was a good/bad idea. So I think in a way you unknowingly agreed with me... interesting. Stick with me kid and I will take you places.

Don't!!! he rides tires down hills instead of cars.

Not true, I insist on not rolling tires down hills towards a intersection.

[_Simpson_ 250]

see nobody mentioned a car, this about knowning what that tire will do with out having telepathy.

[DIARD 1]

If there ever was a place and time for NHC do you honestly think that right now it that time to try and push this through, considering the economic state of this country

Great Britian began the NHS right after WWII, when their nation was on the verge of bankruptcy.

And after the U.S. had just forgiven them their huge debt to us.

What?

The UK made its final WWII-related payment to the US in December 2006. It was sort of a big story. It was seen as a loan w/ generous terms, but hardly debt forgiven. Where do you get your information?

From his usual source. That place you need a flashlight and mirror to see.

It was the end of 2006 when the UK transferred $84 million to the US Treasury for the final payment on debt used to finance WWII. Back in 1945 the US extended $4+ billion to the UK to prevent the UK from going into bankruptcy. It took 50years (6 of which a payment was skipped) for the UK to settle the debt. I think the loan was double the size of the UK economy at the time (maybe someone can confirm). There also appears to be debts owed to the US for WWI as well. There have been no repayments received since 1934 (due to an moratorium during the depression)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6215847.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4757181.stm

more ...

"Britain received about $30 billion of goods — just over £7 billion atthe prevailing exchange rate — during the war years, in effect giftsfrom America. But in September 1945 the US abruptly announced an end tothe Lend-Lease programme, despite the need for large-scalereconstruction and with Britain on its knees economically."

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle1264220.ece

I can keep digging and find more information about the nature of debts between the UK and US at the end of the WWII. Can we agree the UK decided to rebuild and also institute NHC due to a generous loan/agreements with the US that gave them access to spendable funds? I don't know if this helped finance NHC or not ... I'll let others weigh in on this .

Meanwhile ... I shamelessly digressed. Back to Topic...

If I am not mistaken, the US owes quite a bit more than this China at the moment and that debt didnt come about because of World War.

That has nothing to do with what were talking about, now you want to player hate on the states but can we but that aside for a moment and discuss this?

How is this "player hate"?? Do we NOT owe China billions of dollars? Did this debt not come about AFTER both world wars? What I stated was a fact . You might not care for it, I know I certainly am uncomfortable owing the Chinese that kind of cash but it is the truth.

Now this comment was in relation to the discussion that the UK owed a debt to the US and managed to pay if off in 2006. If they used the money to rebuild after the war or institute NHS does this matter?? What have we used the Chinese money for?? The War in Iraq?

[natty bumppo 297]

Calm down homeboy. That was someone else's tangent. Get on their case about it.

hey ... you own me a beer for this !!! why?

cause it was a fun digression for a moment ... got to refresh my memory on history.

now as for the beer ... you get the first I'll get the second. fair?

[Empress of Groovy 373]

I'm not sure you can say that the NHS was established as a direct result of the US's largesse following the war. Large sections of Britain (and indeed much of Europe) was in shambles, but health care for all citizens was a major priority because it was seen as crucial to the nation's recovery.

To say this didnt help would be a lie, how significant this help was well that another debate. Lets not forget that this was all brought up because somebody eluded to that since Britian did it after world war II then theres no reason the USA cant do it. Bottom line its different countries, times and issues and this needs to be taken into consideration.

I agree that it's not relevant to this argument. I just wanted to point out that luckytxn's assertion that Britain's WWII debt was forgiven immediately following the war was incorrect.

Someone (I forget who) had a rambling post a few weeks back suggesting that the U.S. was effectively subsidizing Canada's health system because the U.S. military would be first on the scene if Canada was ever attacked. Canada, he asserted, knows this and (I guess) maintains a smaller military than it would otherwise. Now we've got people saying that the U.S. basically subsidized the creation of Britain's NHS. The U.S. always has to be the hero, it appears.

Perhaps these arguments would be more compelling if the U.S. couldn't afford a national system. We clearly can; just look at the numbers. The long and short of it is that too many powerful people are making too much money from the current system, and large numbers of Americans have been convinced that their (democratically elected) government is inefficient at best, corrupt and sinister at worst, and will screw up the entire enterprise if given the chance.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Empress of Groovy

[nowhereman 1]

I went to a hockey game recently & a fight over healthcare broke out B)

[HAL 9000 96]

see nobody mentioned a car, this about knowning what that tire will do with out having telepathy.

go figure- you're the one rolling tires down roads that are made for cars

Calm down homeboy. That was someone else's tangent. Get on their case about it.

hey ... you own me a beer for this !!! why?

cause it was a fun digression for a moment ... got to refresh my memory on history.

now as for the beer ... you get the first I'll get the second. fair?

I'm game for this. You know it.

I went to a hockey game recently & a fight over healthcare broke out B)

Hopefully they were players. Cause you know... they have the salaries to be able to pay for any costs beyond what their insurance limits cover!!

[_Simpson_ 250]

If there ever was a place and time for NHC do you honestly think that right now it that time to try and push this through, considering the economic state of this country

Great Britian began the NHS right after WWII, when their nation was on the verge of bankruptcy.

And after the U.S. had just forgiven them their huge debt to us.

What?

The UK made its final WWII-related payment to the US in December 2006. It was sort of a big story. It was seen as a loan w/ generous terms, but hardly debt forgiven. Where do you get your information?

From his usual source. That place you need a flashlight and mirror to see.

It was the end of 2006 when the UK transferred $84 million to the US Treasury for the final payment on debt used to finance WWII. Back in 1945 the US extended $4+ billion to the UK to prevent the UK from going into bankruptcy. It took 50years (6 of which a payment was skipped) for the UK to settle the debt. I think the loan was double the size of the UK economy at the time (maybe someone can confirm). There also appears to be debts owed to the US for WWI as well. There have been no repayments received since 1934 (due to an moratorium during the depression)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6215847.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4757181.stm

more ...

"Britain received about $30 billion of goods — just over £7 billion atthe prevailing exchange rate — during the war years, in effect giftsfrom America. But in September 1945 the US abruptly announced an end tothe Lend-Lease programme, despite the need for large-scalereconstruction and with Britain on its knees economically."

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle1264220.ece

I can keep digging and find more information about the nature of debts between the UK and US at the end of the WWII. Can we agree the UK decided to rebuild and also institute NHC due to a generous loan/agreements with the US that gave them access to spendable funds? I don't know if this helped finance NHC or not ... I'll let others weigh in on this .

Meanwhile ... I shamelessly digressed. Back to Topic...

If I am not mistaken, the US owes quite a bit more than this China at the moment and that debt didnt come about because of World War.

That has nothing to do with what were talking about, now you want to player hate on the states but can we but that aside for a moment and discuss this?

How is this "player hate"?? Do we NOT owe China billions of dollars? Did this debt not come about AFTER both world wars? What I stated was a fact . You might not care for it, I know I certainly am uncomfortable owing the Chinese that kind of cash but it is the truth.

Now this comment was in relation to the discussion that the UK owed a debt to the US and managed to pay if off in 2006. If they used the money to rebuild after the war or institute NHS does this matter?? What have we used the Chinese money for?? The War in Iraq?

Thats what you dont get, it was not about that, go back and read... from the beginning. This happens alot here at VJ, very frustrating. I really wish if people wanted to put in there two cents they would come equipped

Edited August 14, 2009 by looking_up

[Joseph & Ana 0]

you can't use facts and logic such as the breakdown of the 45 - 47 million "uninsured" that was posted a couple pages back; it only confuses the Obamites.

[_Simpson_ 250]

Calm down homeboy. That was someone else's tangent. Get on their case about it.

hey ... you own me a beer for this !!! why?

cause it was a fun digression for a moment ... got to refresh my memory on history.

now as for the beer ... you get the first I'll get the second. fair?

What are you talking about, you were on topic with what we were discussing.

Edited August 14, 2009 by looking_up

[nowhereman 1]

you can't use facts and logic such as the breakdown of the 45 - 47 million "uninsured" that was posted a couple pages back; it only confuses the Obamites.

Yea but lots of labeling & rhetoric sure does get the point across I have yet to see a single alternative offered... it's just page after page of mindless rhetoric and Obama bashing. I offered a solution in a related thread... Obama should meet with the moderate Republicans & Blue Dog Democrats & hammer out a plan that they can live with & that Americans would support. Of course the far right and far left would still be unhappy, but they are largely to blame for the extreme animosity between the two parties so I'd tell them to go pound sand.

[Joseph & Ana 0]

You just used labeling yourself. Its interesting how there are a lot of accusations coming from people that are doing the very same thing.

The gentlemen posted a very well written article using facts and numbers and sources, and 2 or 3 people just brushed it off as false because it doesn't agree with their already pre-conceived notions.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

you can't use facts and logic such as the breakdown of the 45 - 47 million "uninsured" that was posted a couple pages back; it only confuses the Obamites.

Yea but lots of labeling & rhetoric sure does get the point across I have yet to see a single alternative offered... it's just page after page of mindless rhetoric and Obama bashing. I offered a solution in a related thread... Obama should meet with the moderate Republicans & Blue Dog Democrats & hammer out a plan that they can live with & that Americans would support. Of course the far right and far left would still be unhappy, but they are largely to blame for the extreme animosity between the two parties so I'd tell them to go pound sand.

Enable all insurance companies to do business in all states.

[Peikko 1,575]

Is this the same guy who is whining about how his office is going to close and he might be out of a job and wants help from VJ?

Wow is all I can summon up in response...

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Are people who criticize the British system even aware that there is a private system there as well?

Are you aware that the private system has yet to experience a single death?

Maybe cuz they do mostly knee replacements?

Do you deny that the NHS loses patients every day? EVERY SINGLE DAY!!!!

The US system produces somewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 preventable deaths each year. That's about 275 a day.