Working off the books......

[DeboZZ 0]

Hello everyone I just had a question about working off the books , I have two jobs one is with taxes I pay and the other is off the books. Iam wondering the job which I work off the books would count as income for the afidavid of support can i summit a letter for that job or not?

[Carlawarla 1]

Hello everyone I just had a question about working off the books , I have two jobs one is with taxes I pay and the other is off the books. Iam wondering the job which I work off the books would count as income for the afidavid of support can i summit a letter for that job or not?

If you're working "off the books", are you paying taxes on that money? I don't know how you can submit for income you don't pay taxes on.

[Cuchita 1]

We can't give advice on something ilegal!.

[Canadian/American 3]

Hello everyone I just had a question about working off the books , I have two jobs one is with taxes I pay and the other is off the books. Iam wondering the job which I work off the books would count as income for the afidavid of support can i summit a letter for that job or not?

If you're working "off the books", are you paying taxes on that money? I don't know how you can submit for income you don't pay taxes on.

I would agree with the comment about not being able to claim as income money that you don't pay taxes on.

In the affidavit of support, they can ask for tax returns to verify income. This money would not show up on a tax return. Is it legal to work off the books? By declaring it won't you and your employer get in trouble? If it is legal in this country to do that (it's not in Canada) then use that income and get a letter to verify the amounts etc and some sort of pay history information and use it. If it's not legal, ask your employer to start paying you 'on the books' so you can not only use it for this affidavit but you can get other government benefits that must come from paying taxes etc.

[Bobby+Umit 161]

No - you can't.

That's tax evasion - which is illegal...

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Hello everyone I just had a question about working off the books , I have two jobs one is with taxes I pay and the other is off the books. Iam wondering the job which I work off the books would count as income for the afidavid of support can i summit a letter for that job or not?

If it was not claimed income on your previous tax return you cannot claim it for past income. If it was not there on line 22 of your 1040 it cannot magically appear now as income...with a couple of exceptions. There ARE forms of tax free "income" that CAN be counted if documented, child support and workman's comp are two examples. Last year's tax return is of little value for the interview (at most consulates) because CURRENT, verifiable, income is usually given far more weight in the decision. There is no obligation, per se, to meet this year's poverty guidelines with last year's income.

As for CURRENT income...

There is NO LAW against being paid cash for work. You have an obligation (and so does your employer) of reporting this payment to the federal government, usually this is done on a 1099, or simply on a Schedule C attachment, which makes this income "self employment" income. There is no obligation to report this until the end of the year. SO...for money you are making now, this year, it is NOT "off the books" until you file your 2009 tax return and you do not report it, THEN it becomes a crime. Until then, it is self employment income. There is no such thing as "off the books" until you make it "off the books" by failing to claim it for the year's income.

So, for current income, you can report your regular job and verify with check stubs, employment letter, etc. You can also report that you have another source of income from "self employment". Your "client" (he is not your "employer") can write a letter verifying this money is paid to you on a regular basis, maybe you also have a contract for these services you could attach (?) and you can show a bank letter which shows how much money is deposited to your personal account to "verify" this income. The consulate can choose whether to accept it or not...THAT I cannot comment on, it is the consulate's judement call.

Whether you claim the income, or pay taxes on it, is yet to be seen and is none of the consulates concern. Given that you will also be doing an AOS later, and quite likely after 2009 is complete, I would plan on claiming this income and paying taxes on it so it shows on your 2009 tax return for the AOS.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

No - you can't.

That's tax evasion - which is illegal...

Bobby, and others...

I believe the OP has clearly stated he intends to make this money and not pay taxes or claim it...which is illegal, true. BUT until the end of the year he is simply working for cash, not unlike the auto mechanic that fixes my car, the roofers who put a new roof on my house last month, the waitress you tipped at the restaraunt last night, or the guy selling hot dogs and soda on Church Street in Burlington. There is NOTHING illegal about being paid cash, which is why our currency says "legal tender for all debts public and private". Though his intent may be tax evasion, and I do not know if he indeed failed to claim such income for last year...his current receipt of this money is NOT illegal and CAN be claimed as current income (if he can verify it to the consulate's satisfaction). MOST employers CHOOSE to pay by check as it is of benefit to them in record keeping and verification if they are audited or for reporting to stockholders, partners, etc. They NEED a means to verify and balance everything, a self employed person does not. There is no obligation for anyone to pay by check nor an obligation for you to accept a check, a check is NOT legal tender and is not currency.

What the OP does after December 31, 2009 will determine if this is a crime or legal self employment income. IF he chooses the criminal act of not reporting income, he will not be able to claim it as such on his 2009 tax return and will not be able to show it as such for the AOS, loan applications or any other process requiring income verification.

[DJ and BJ 0]

No - you can't.

That's tax evasion - which is illegal...

Bobby, and others...

I believe the OP has clearly stated he intends to make this money and not pay taxes or claim it...which is illegal, true. BUT until the end of the year he is simply working for cash, not unlike the auto mechanic that fixes my car, the roofers who put a new roof on my house last month, the waitress you tipped at the restaraunt last night, or the guy selling hot dogs and soda on Church Street in Burlington. There is NOTHING illegal about being paid cash, which is why our currency says "legal tender for all debts public and private". Though his intent may be tax evasion, and I do not know if he indeed failed to claim such income for last year...his current receipt of this money is NOT illegal and CAN be claimed as current income (if he can verify it to the consulate's satisfaction). MOST employers CHOOSE to pay by check as it is of benefit to them in record keeping and verification if they are audited or for reporting to stockholders, partners, etc. They NEED a means to verify and balance everything, a self employed person does not. There is no obligation for anyone to pay by check nor an obligation for you to accept a check, a check is NOT legal tender and is not currency.

What the OP does after December 31, 2009 will determine if this is a crime or legal self employment income. IF he chooses the criminal act of not reporting income, he will not be able to claim it as such on his 2009 tax return and will not be able to show it as such for the AOS, loan applications or any other process requiring income verification.

Wonderful response!!!

[DeboZZ 0]

thank you everyone

[Bobby+Umit 161]

No - you can't.

That's tax evasion - which is illegal...

Bobby, and others...

I believe the OP has clearly stated he intends to make this money and not pay taxes or claim it...which is illegal, true. BUT until the end of the year he is simply working for cash, not unlike the auto mechanic that fixes my car, the roofers who put a new roof on my house last month, the waitress you tipped at the restaraunt last night, or the guy selling hot dogs and soda on Church Street in Burlington. There is NOTHING illegal about being paid cash, which is why our currency says "legal tender for all debts public and private". Though his intent may be tax evasion, and I do not know if he indeed failed to claim such income for last year...his current receipt of this money is NOT illegal and CAN be claimed as current income (if he can verify it to the consulate's satisfaction). MOST employers CHOOSE to pay by check as it is of benefit to them in record keeping and verification if they are audited or for reporting to stockholders, partners, etc. They NEED a means to verify and balance everything, a self employed person does not. There is no obligation for anyone to pay by check nor an obligation for you to accept a check, a check is NOT legal tender and is not currency.

What the OP does after December 31, 2009 will determine if this is a crime or legal self employment income. IF he chooses the criminal act of not reporting income, he will not be able to claim it as such on his 2009 tax return and will not be able to show it as such for the AOS, loan applications or any other process requiring income verification.

Unfortunately - he clearly stated "under the table" which almost always means no taxes will be paid, either by the employer or the employee.

Both of which are breaking tax laws - depending on what state/federal laws they are operating under.

Regardless, he would have to show this "cash" income somehow - and not showing any type of paystubs/tax returns make it mote anyway.

Unless the OP has this "cash" in a savings deposit, and wishes to use it as "assets" - I don't know how he could claim it to the consulates satisfaction.

Interesting read on this subject.

(Now imagine if he said "under the table" to the USCIS people? What do you think they would say?)

Edited August 6, 2009 by Bobby_Umit

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

No - you can't.

That's tax evasion - which is illegal...

Bobby, and others...

I believe the OP has clearly stated he intends to make this money and not pay taxes or claim it...which is illegal, true. BUT until the end of the year he is simply working for cash, not unlike the auto mechanic that fixes my car, the roofers who put a new roof on my house last month, the waitress you tipped at the restaraunt last night, or the guy selling hot dogs and soda on Church Street in Burlington. There is NOTHING illegal about being paid cash, which is why our currency says "legal tender for all debts public and private". Though his intent may be tax evasion, and I do not know if he indeed failed to claim such income for last year...his current receipt of this money is NOT illegal and CAN be claimed as current income (if he can verify it to the consulate's satisfaction). MOST employers CHOOSE to pay by check as it is of benefit to them in record keeping and verification if they are audited or for reporting to stockholders, partners, etc. They NEED a means to verify and balance everything, a self employed person does not. There is no obligation for anyone to pay by check nor an obligation for you to accept a check, a check is NOT legal tender and is not currency.

What the OP does after December 31, 2009 will determine if this is a crime or legal self employment income. IF he chooses the criminal act of not reporting income, he will not be able to claim it as such on his 2009 tax return and will not be able to show it as such for the AOS, loan applications or any other process requiring income verification.

Unfortunately - he clearly stated "under the table" which almost always means no taxes will be paid, either by the employer or the employee.

Both of which are breaking tax laws - depending on what state/federal laws they are operating under.

Regardless, he would have to show this "cash" income somehow - and not showing any type of paystubs/tax returns make it mote anyway.

Unless the OP has this "cash" in a savings deposit, and wishes to use it as "assets" - I don't know how he could claim it to the consulates satisfaction.

Interesting read on this subject.

(Now imagine if he said "under the table" to the USCIS people? What do you think they would say?)

Yes, agreed. I do not doubt he intends to pocket the cash and not pay tax, sounds to me like that is what he means. For that regard I think he will do a better job of stimulating the economy with his earnings as HE chooses, rather than giving it over to the government...but that is just the raging Libertarian in me and has nothing to do with the question or process.

Yes, it can be very difficult to prove cash income, no doubt. My guess is he doesn't run to the bank and deposit his cash and then write checks for his bills, what do you think? In this case, a bank letter are of no use as the income will not appear. Contracts or client letters are of little, if any, use. He faces a tough row to hoe to convince the consulate he has this income, but if he can...it counts. And as for now, for 2009, it is not illegal...yet.

I am not sure what USCIS would say to the phrase "under the table". I certainly know the meaning of it, but it is not "under the table" until he files that 2009 return, for now it is just cash income like lots of other people have. On the one hand they are NOT the IRS and a person can just as easily cheat with a w-2 job by claiming credits and dedcutions they are not entitled to. I would say it would be a major dumb@ss move to say..."and here is my documentation of under the table money" when all he has to say is "here is my documentation of current self employment income"

As for cheating...well, yes and no. If his client is paying him cash, his client cannot claim him as a business expense, therefor increasing his client's "profit" on paper and increasing his client's tax burden, so someone is paying the tax. I wouldn't pay an employee "under the table" simply because it is not advantageous to me. Forget the tax code...there is nothing in it for ME. But that is just me. Who knows, his client may be cheating in another way and writing off his pay as some other expense, vehicle mileage or depreciation or something. It wouldn't be hard given a part time employee. But I do not speculate on that. If the government wants to end tax cheating, they will implement the FAIR TAX, consumption tax, and get the money when we SPEND it instead of trying to get it when we make it. But of course they will lose "control" and lose the social engineering possible in 36,000 pages of tax code. So the government trades 40% of their income (the KNOWN amount of variance between claimed income and GNP) for control over peoples lives. They pays their nickle and takes their chances.

[Jauque 1]

Hello everyone I just had a question about working off the books , I have two jobs one is with taxes I pay and the other is off the books. Iam wondering the job which I work off the books would count as income for the afidavid of support can i summit a letter for that job or not?

What employer who is paying their employee "off the books" is going to give said employee a letter saying as much to give to the government?

Furthermore what individual who is receiving income off the books is going to submit a letter to the government essentially turning himself in for tax evasion?

Or maybe you've decided its time to come clean and become a law abiding citizen. That I would commend!

Yes please do send a letter from your employer!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Hello everyone I just had a question about working off the books , I have two jobs one is with taxes I pay and the other is off the books. Iam wondering the job which I work off the books would count as income for the afidavid of support can i summit a letter for that job or not?

What employer who is paying their employee "off the books" is going to give said employee a letter saying as much to give to the government?

Furthermore what individual who is receiving income off the books is going to submit a letter to the government essentially turning himself in for tax evasion?

Or maybe you've decided its time to come clean and become a law abiding citizen. That I would commend!

Yes please do send a letter from your employer!

There really is nothing diabolical or secretive about this and it could easily be done, legally. His "employer" in this case is not an employer, he is a "client". There would be absolutely nothing wrong with his client producing a letter saying "I have a contract with Joe Smith to mow my lawn (or wahtever) every Saturday and I pay him $100 for this service each week" It is Joe Smith's responsibility to report his income, not his client's responsibility.

Joe Smith can present this letter to the State Department that has nothing to do with tax collection, get his visa and then neglect to mention the income on his 2009 tax return which the State Department will never see, doesn't want to see, and couldn't care less about. The IRS will never see the letter from Joe's client.

Whether the consulate will accept a letter from a business client or a contract for self employment, or however else he proves his self employment, is yet to be seen, but he can certainly present it. You also have to keep in mind, that no matter what the OP says here, whatever his intent this moment, UNTIL he files his 2009 tax return and neglects to report this income...he is doing NOTHING illegal and should get credit for ALL his income from his work.

Would you say a barber or a waitress should not get credit for their tips if they can show they make tips because they may not claim them on their income tax next year? The guy is WORKING and earning money, what's the problem? He should get creidt for what he makes and deal with punishment for tax evasion when and if that occurs.

[Jauque 1]

The OP used the term 'under the table'. People who are self-employed and intend on paying taxes do not use this term. Your also speculating that this person has only been employed "under the table" for this tax year.

It is required by law to report tips as taxable income. I wouldn't advise an individual who is not reporting their tips to include that in there income when filling out the I-134, either.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Jauque

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

The OP used the term 'under the table'. People who are self-employed and intend on paying taxes do not use this term. Your also speculating that this person has only been employed "under the table" for this tax year.

It is required by law to report tips as taxable income. I wouldn't advise an individual who is not reporting their tips to include that in there income when filling out the I-134, either.

Jacque

I have no question of the terminology...doesn't matter. I have no doubt the intent of the arrangement was tax evasion. Doesn't matter if he did it before. He can SAY whatever he wants. Until he files the 2009 return and doesn't claim income he is doing nothing wrong. At least not for this year. I do not know about past years, nor do I care. As I mentioned in my first post, if he had this income in 2008 and did not claim it, he cannot claim it now...for 2008. He can certainly claim it as "current" income if he can prove it, and THAT was his question and THAT is what the I-134 asks. I would answer the same to any self employed person making cash...prove it and you can claim it on the I-134. What he does in April 2010 on his 2009 tax return has nothing whatever to do with how he answers an I-134 question today.

It is true that anyone that receives cash income and does not claim it when they file taxes is breaking the law. Until that time, they are not.

I certainly WOULD advise someone making tips to claim it on the I-134, it makes it more likely they will claim it on their tax return and be in compliance. I have nothing against people who earn cash for working. They deserve credit for what they earn. Neither of us can say if he will report this income, and I cannot say if the waitress I tipped 2 days ago will report it, they do not have to NOW. Just because he intended not to report it does not mean that he will not. I advise him TO report it and I would never do what his "employer" is doing (and what? take a risk I would get in trouble for him? LOL). But judgements and foot stomping aside, he is not breaking the law TODAY.