Failing relationships

[eekee 182]

I find it hard to believe that you do not know any young Russian alcoholics. Unless you perhaps only know Russians who have been converted to Mormonism?

I do know Russian guys who cook and clean and etc. But there's still different expectations within the confines of a relationship. You absolutely have to come into it with different expectations and modes of behavior than with young American guys.

Edited May 15, 2009 by eekee

[Brad and Vika 129]

I wouldn't give up control of my career path, body, etc. But that doesn't mean that people have to be rude. I recognize that I am small, and there are certain jobs which I cannot work and certain tasks that I cannot perform due my physical limitations, and I welcome help from those stronger than me when it comes to carrying stuff. But I also do not want to have babies or be a housewife. I don't think that the ideas of American feminism--that women should have a choice in their lives--necessarily have to mean that politeness and chivalry and recognition that yes, there are certain biological differences (I have had girls try to tell me that their self-defense classes will enable them to fight off a 200 pound, muscle-bound man, which I don't believe) should be ignored and thrown away.

I agree, but the inconsistent messages men get here when offering help will cause some of us (like me) to think twice, at times, before trying it. Usually I just offer anyway, and take the position that my offer of help to lift that suitcase is hers to refuse. In other words, my conduct is not determined by her likely response.

Also, as I think about it, it seems to me that when I am in Eastern Europe I do more helping. I think this is because I know it is expected, desired, and appreciated. Again, just my opinion. The last time I visited Ukraine I found myself lifting two huge suitcases onto a conveyer for a 120 pound woman with two small kids. And on the return, volunteering to help a Russian speaking woman in Chicago find the ticket counter after a flight delay - when the airport employee clearly couldn't communicate. My Russian is very limited, but happened to be better than the security guy's. Just a few examples. In both cases the women I was helping were appreciative, but not at all surprised that the closest big guy to them would help. As I wrote earlier, I do tend to get mixed responses here (with an admittedly larger sample of experience).

[mox 298]

Rather strong stuff

I don't mean for it to sound so combative, but this isn't the first (or last) time we've heard the "feminists have ruined everything" myth, but the facts just don't bear it out. For example, according to the "feminists have ruined everything" myth, men are afraid to hold the door open for a woman for fear of being accused of sexism. And yet I see men holding doors open for women *ALL* the time. I see women holding doors open for men, and all other combinations. As I said in my post, I'm not afraid to hold a door open for a woman, and I personally don't know a single person who's afraid to hold a door open. There is also a myth that men are afraid to compliment a woman, especially in the workplace. And yet I hear it in my own workplace all the time, and I've often complimented my own female co-workers on their attire. Yes, of course it's inappropriate to say "hey those pants make your аss look awesome!" but there's nothing wrong with saying "I really like that shirt." The argument that feminism has ended "chivarly" (if it ever existed) is simply a myth, and we as intelligent men need to stop using it as a convenient excuse to be lazy. And women who buy into it need to stop too, because it does nothing but create more lazy men.

I don't care what you call it (I think we are really confusing each other with definitions here), there is a huge difference between chivalrous behavior and common courtesy by definition. That is part of the problem I talked about in my earlier post. We are so far from chivalry here that we think holding the door qualifies.

I agree...I don't like the term "chivarly," first and foremost because I don't believe it ever existed. People look back to the '60's, when men tipped their hats to the ladies and traditional roles were very clearly defined. And yet more and more we're seeing what a dysfunctional era that truly was. (watch the series "Mad Men" to get a taste of it, although don't read too much into it, it's TV and has at least one foot firmly planted in fiction.)

I also opine that the blurring of gender roles in America is directly related to the feminist movement (not to be confused with lack of courtesy). Control of career path, control of body, control of career, etc. - see the common thread here? I don't know the answers - but maybe it just comes down to what you are comfortable with, or what you can live with. Anything that puts men and women into competition for control of anything that should be cooperative in nature just confuses things more, at least in my opinion.

There's nothing wrong with competition on a level playing field and when it makes sense. Yes, the male gender and the female gender competing against each other is unhealthy, although I think we're still a long way away from allowing women to take on roles they really are suited for. For example, Israel has been putting female soldiers on the front lines since the 50's, and they've proved themselves time and time again. So why won't the US do it? Giving a woman a rifle and putting her on a front line isn't competing genders against each other, it's just allowing women to perform in a role they can perform in.

And back to courtesy. Speaking as a guy who has experienced "I can open my own door, thanks", and had a coat taken from my hands while I held it up for a female colleague to put on, I am happy that with my Viktoriya there is NO doubt at about it being a good idea to take her hand and help her out of the car, even if she doesn't really need it. Lifting and carrying is a given too. The refusal of courtesy didn't happen to me often over the years, and I don't recall it ever being nasty, but that isn't really the point. The point is inconsistent acceptance of same.

As you yourself admit though, your experience was the exception to the rule. Yet you're giving those isolated experiences the lion's share of the evidentiary weight. As I said, there are fringe elements out there who can't understand the difference between common courtesy and "help help I'm being repressed." They are idiots and cannot be helped. The problem is theirs, not yours. Live in Russia long enough and I'm sure you'd find a woman there who'd also take her coat from your hands.

Suffrage was way before the right to not have asses smacked. Same goes for feminine destruction of chivalry vs. inter-sex courtesies. Brad illustrated the point nicely with his coworker snatching the coat out of his hands when trying to help her put it on. There's a distinct line and it has way more to do with Beyonce than Susan B. Anthony or Gloria Steinham.

My point was that suffrage was a direct result of feminism. The point was made that feminism is a destructive force, and I'm just pointing out that it's historically been a very positive force in this country. You of all people should understand this. To paraphrase the oft-heard 2nd amendment mantra, feminism isn't destructive, destructive behavior is destructive.

Thank you Brad. It seems according to Mox that no one has been turned down when they do an act of chivalry.

Actually I think I was *very* clear on this point. There are people who just don't get feminism, and those are the ones who will turn down your "act of chivalry." (but please, can we drop these phrases about "chivalry?" It's just not accurate.)

Chicks do it to show that they are unreliable of a man. Is this the true definition of how feminism started, no. But this is what it has led to.

"Chicks" do it because they are confused and don't understand the difference between being oppressed and common courtesy.

And the helping of a lady put her coat on... if I saw this in the workplace, I would almost think they have a thing going, instead of "oh what a polite man", simply because it is not seen.

The reason you don't see it is because in the workplace most people work in individual offices or cubicles. If I'm standing up to get ready to leave, then yes it would be very weird if a co-worker were to leave their cubicle, come over to mine, and hold my coat up for me. Instead, try watching in a decent restaurant, especially one with a coat check. You'll see men holding women's coats all the time for them.

I know of no young russian alki's, or woman beaters.

Hmmm. No offense, but you really seem like a person who sees the world as she wants to see it. Spend *any* time in Russia, and you can't help but see the effects of alcoholism in Russia. Spend some time in a small village (as I have), and it will stare you in the face almost every second you are out of doors. And the reason you don't know of any "woman beaters" is because it's not usually done publicly, although I've seen it happen in night clubs.

About Russia's 75 cents to a mans dollar, this will never change. We can't get this working in the US, how would we in countries where women are less valued.

Not that it's germane to the feminism discussion, but again, you're seeing things the way you want to see them, but you are wrong. Wages between men and women in the US are closing (the gap widens sometimes, and then closes again, but the overall trend is smaller), and have been closing for decades. And even closer to Russia, if I remember correctly one of the Scandinavian countries actually has a practically nil gap between wages. So it has been working in the US and abroad, so there's no reason to think it couldn't happen in Russia. But there has to be political and social will to push such change, which probably isn't there yet.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Yikes! Too much to repond to in the text. I will try to just bullet point it

1) As I mentioned, I tend to hold doors, etc. most of the time anyway - but I do think twice about it here. I think I understand feminism pretty well. Some of it I agree with, some not, but I refuse to be rabid about it either way. The feminists (whoever they are - I think we are all trained into some of it here) have not ruined anything, but the feminist movement has definitely changed the way we live and work.

2) I am the guy who will not complement female co-workers at work unless I know them very well. Nor will I close an office door if I am alone with one. It isn't fear at all, just an abundance of caution. I have personally seen enough men ruin their careers by doing things that are normally harmless - then getting roasted for it later. I don't care what the counter-argument is - I have seen it myself. The legal test is only that the action made the woman uncomfortable OR created a hostile (in her mind) workplace. This is serious stuff - when the perception of one worker can alter the career of another. Trust me, if you are in a political organization like mine, and are accused of making a woman feel bad - there is no defense that will save you. You can argue all you want about the legal process after - but once a man's name is splashed that way his career is seldom the same.

3) I wasn't talking about competing for jobs, or competing for a bigger salary Mox, I think that is fine. I was talking about competing for control of a relationship, or family. That sort of thing shouldn't be a competition. This seems like common sense, but I see and read more and more about two proffessional families that missed out, or regret not having tried for a nuclear (not nucular) family.

I can't speak to the alki/wife beater ratio in Russia - so I will let that go

Edited May 15, 2009 by Brad and Vika

[mox 298]

Yikes! Too much to repond to in the text. I will try to just bullet point it

Heh, again apologies.

1) As I mentioned, I tend to hold doors, etc. most of the time anyway - but I do think twice about it here. I think I understand feminism pretty well. Some of it I agree with, some not, but I refuse to be rabid about it either way. The feminists (whoever they are - I think we are all trained into some of it here) have not ruined anything, but the feminist movement has definitely changed the way we live and work.

I can totally agree with this bullet point, although you and I perhaps interpret it in slightly different ways. I agree that the feminist movement has "changed the way we live and work," but overall I think they are positive changes. There are some exceptions...

2) I am the guy who will not complement female co-workers at work unless I know them very well. Nor will I close an office door if I am alone with one. It isn't fear at all, just an abundance of caution. I have personally seen enough men ruin their careers by doing things that are normally harmless - then getting roasted for it later. I don't care what the counter-argument is - I have seen it myself. The legal test is only that the action made the woman uncomfortable OR created a hostile (in her mind) workplace. This is serious stuff - when the perception of one worker can alter the career of another. Trust me, if you are in a political organization like mine, and are accused of making a woman feel bad - there is no defense that will save you. You can argue all you want about the legal process after - but once a man's name is splashed that way his career is seldom the same.

...like this. I've seen it happen too, and it's unfortunate that we (men *and* women) have to worry about such things. I think in a couple decades this kind of thing will have run its course (I'm starting to hear stories about men winning these kinds of charges), but for now it's a problem. I don't think it's because of feminism, but I do think it's a side effect caused by the litigious society we live in. And hey, it's harmful to women too. If you're gun shy about closing the door with a woman in your office, then you're less likely to pull a female employee into your office for confidential meetings, meaning that it's going to be harder for her to be pulled into your "inner circle." That means less opportunities for big projects and promotions for women. So anyone that thinks this kind of situation is beneficial for anybody just doesn't get it. I agree, something's gotta give.

3) I wasn't talking about competing for jobs, or competing for a bigger salary Mox, I think that is fine. I was talking about competing for control of a relationship, or family. That sort of thing shouldn't be a competition. This seems like common sense, but I see and read more and more about two proffessional families that missed out, or regret not having tried for a nuclear (not nucular) family.

Gotcha. I can speak from a lot of experience on this one. Depending on the day of the week, the lunar cycle, which way the wind blew, or some other mysterious criteria, my ex went from wanting a 50/50 relationship, to wanting to be a traditional wife, to wanting to wear the pants, and anywhere in between. And although I don't claim to be entirely blameless, this is the one big thing in my mind that made our marriage insufferable. I'm a firm believer in whatever kind of relationship works. So if a so-called traditional relationship works for you, you have the blessings of the mox. If having her be the "boss" works, go nuts. If having group sex with midgets and motorcycle gangs ever other Thursday is going to ensure that you grow old and happy together, then just do it. As long as both people in the relationship are happy with the arrangement, there is no right or wrong way to behave. (and I know I'm preaching to the choir on this one.)

I can't speak to the alki/wife beater ratio in Russia - so I will let that go

I believe it's aproximately 1:1.

[K1researcher 0]

hmm

i gotta chime in and note that I do not know a single man who is NOT terrified to compliment a woman at work. In essence everything you stated concerning these i know the exact opposite and have never met or witnessed the people you mention outside of instances in small rural areas. I dont discuss politics or closely related subject on the net for any reasons. I just wanted to point out that the "ruiniation" is there and very alive.

[WalkonWildSide 0]

About Russia's 75 cents to a mans dollar, this will never change. We can't get this working in the US, how would we in countries where women are less valued.

This is a huge pet peeve of mine. Canada a few years back did a huge study about the pay discrepancy between men and women as part of the Canadian Human Rights Act (Pay equity and Pay equality). They really wanted to enforce that men and women get paid the same. You know what they found out, the difference in pay was neglible.

The reason the myth - and yes it is a myth of pay disparity exists for a few reasons.

- Year of birth. There was a time when women were paid less. Women entering the job market today are more likely to receive an equal wage compared to a woman entering the job market in 1950's.

- The more important reason that the $0.80 on the dollar became a calling cry was it was based on total salaries. The stats were not broken down by job code. Men in whole take jobs that have higher average pay. The average pay is higher because the jobs have higher danger elements or higher engineering skills required.

Don't misread those last statements. I am not saying men are better or women can't do certain jobs.

However women gravitate to certain jobs and men gravitate to certain jobs. There are more male computer programmers and there are more female nurses. Either gender can do either job. Generally in the long term computer programmers tend to earn a higher salary. Again don't mis-read the statement, not saying a computer programmer is more important than a nurse, the current marketplace just pays the computer programmer more money.

[/off the soapbox]

Edited May 15, 2009 by easytarget

[WalkonWildSide 0]

When did this thread turn from relationship advice to discussion about feminism?

[mox 298]

When did this thread turn from relationship advice to discussion about feminism?

When the inevitable post about how feminism is nasty and Russian women know their places came up.

[Chuckles 0]

I never saw anyone call feminism "nasty", until you brought it up, Mox.

[sj5 4]

I just reside in US for two years. I did seen some men who are courteous. Not many though but when I need somebody they do pop out. Or he just want to see my round azz? My spouse is courteous too. He does everything for me except installing my tampons.

Edited May 16, 2009 by sj5

[sj5 4]

During the week my wife and I are on totally separate schedules and we often do not sleep together. (I'm not joking about the couch.) We usually don't eat together either and if we eat together, it's more like eating "at the same time" as she'll eat her stuff and I'll eat mine. Very seldom do we have an actual meal together but when we do have the chance to do so, we'll eat our own stuff together at the table.

We tried to "force it" to work (sleeping and eating) when we first lived together but over time it naturally evolved into this anyway. Let it happen now and save yourself a lot of heartache. You should do what you can together, but you shouldn't "have to" do it together if it works better for you separately. Cuddle on the couch before going to bed or lay in bed together for a while then go your separate ways. Make your dinner together or make your stuff then let her eat that nasty fish, but sit down outside together. There are lots of ways to still make it work while still enjoying yourself.

We really don't have a problem eating together, and prefer to do that at this point (other than when she wants to eat the salty fish). I have hope that the sleep stuff will work itself out in time. I think it is typical for one person to sleep more lightly than the other, and I am definitely the light sleeper here. Also, VIka came from an environment where people live much closer, and apparently learned to sleep through a pretty constant racket - her room being right next to the kitchen and WC with a door of mostly bevelled glass.

Before, my husband thinks I'm spying on him. Every time he gets up I get up too. Anyways, you'll be fine. I used to make my husband nuts during bed time. I fidget a lot.

Edited May 16, 2009 by sj5

[bobb 0]

It seems according to Mox that no one has been turned down when they do an act of chivalry.

I disagree with your conclusion. It's just my opinion.

I feel a more important distinction in this discussion is why should a man let it bother 'him' if a woman is less than thankful for a polite gesture. I don't base my actions on the 'fear' of someone not accepting a polite act from me. If they wish to be that way it's their issue, not mine. I won't change how I lead my life just because I might get a negative reaction such as discussed here.

[mox 298]

I never saw anyone call feminism "nasty", until you brought it up, Mox.

It was said in jest, hence the smiley emote.

[Ban Hammer 12,878]

I just reside in US for two years. I did seen some men who are courteous. Not many though but when I need somebody they do pop out. Or he just want to see my round azz? My spouse is courteous too. He does everything for me except installing my tampons.

i guess you still need to train him some more.