Ban on guns even closer

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Ban our guns to protect Mexico. How dumb does Obama think the American people are? The Messiah is a joke.

[slim 1,533]

I don't think firing your guns will miraculously persuade me that the ideological arguments about gun ownership have merit

I think you should give it a shot. I've seen a whole bunch of "antis" be converted after a single squeeze of the trigger. Most folks who don't believe in guns or don't see the need to have one, even all the way up to those who despise them.... often have never even fired one.

The idea that the ability to own a gun equates to a free populace, is at best - a masturbatory fantasy.

Or, at best, a historically accurate fact. You show me genocide, ethnic cleansing, prolonged civil strife, etc., and I'll show you strong and effective gun control. Conversely, a society where the law-abiding are not only allowed, but encouraged, to own firearms is historically more likely to be a free populace.

Mexico's problems aren't the result of guns coming from the US but OTHER factors, and I don't think it'll make a big difference. If they cannot get them from the US, they'll end up buying them from other sources.

There you have it folks! A real Mexican saying that Mexico's problems aren't caused by U.S.-manufactured guns but by OTHER factors and a ban on the sale of American guns to Americans won't make a big difference.

Kinda off topic... I'm was an avid bow hunter before I left for college and still hunt in Albania and when back in Georgia. Myself, I never understood the charm of a gun. Too simple, yet too many parts. Some people still like hunting with rifles (my father for one) but I have never known a need or a use for an assault rifle in modern American society. What do people use them for? (If you are hunting deer with an AK-47, that's not "hunting")

An AK-47 is not for hunting deer. Plain and simply, it is Liberty's teeth!

When you "vote" or exercise any of your other Rights in the U.S., you're doing so because a piece of paper says you have the Right to do so. However, a man with a gun (or a man in charge of many men with many guns) can stop you from "voting" or exercising any of your other Rights if he chooses to do so because he has a gun and you do not. Now, I said "vote" because when you go to the polls and choose who you want to represent you, you're merely "suggesting" those in power pay attention to your suggestions.

When you own a rifle like an AK-47, they have to listen to your suggestions.

That's a little far-fetched and a little far removed. They don't have to listen to you and nobody's going to point an AK at a politician to make him listen. That's because there are many folks with AK-47s who are capable of pointing them at politicians to make them listen and so they do, usually through more peaceful means, like a vote.

However, if you think for a second that politicians still have to listen to unarmed constituents, you only need to look at places like Albania, Georgia, and pretty much any European country from WWI through WWII. Voters didn't get much respect during those times.

Why? They didn't have AK-47s!

For proof, read up on Finland and Switzerland. They didn't do too bad. Why? They had period-equivalent AK-47s!

And I can't help myself... I have to post a quick story I read about Switzerland, a country where owning a firearm is not only required, but being proficient in it's use is MANDATORY! (I'm paraphrasing here, but it went something like this) Even today, it's nothing to see a 12-year-old girl riding her bike from school to the shutzenfest with a G-3 strapped across her back. And if you think it's too big for her, she'll gladly hand you your @$$ during the contest. The Swiss have long required men, women and children to have a rifle and ammunition at home and be proficient in it's use. They have one of the lowest crime rates in the whole world and there are very few, almost no shootings. They were the only European country to not be invaded during BOTH world wars. During an international military ball, a German general was dining with the commander of the Swiss military and he inquired of him, "how many men could you arm and equip if you had to?" The Swiss general replied, "I could have one million men armed and ready by tomorrow." The German said, "Well, what if I were to attack with five million men?" The Swiss general calmly replied, "My men would each fire five rounds and then go home." Needless to say the Germans never invaded Switzerland!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

One. I have fired guns.

Two. Let's not throw "history" around without some actual specific, non generalized examples.

[justashooter 430]

One. I have fired guns.

Two. Let's not throw "history" around without some actual specific, non generalized examples.

yesterday i happened up on a link in another forum that detailed the death tolls due to ideological/ethnic/political cleansing under 20th century dictators in hard numbers. the total was around 61 million, IIRC. probably i should have linked it here, since your unsubstantiated one liners seem to be more inhibited by weight of evidence than rational argument. in just about every case legislative and enforced disarmament of the people preceeded the acts. hitler did this in 1936, stalin did it, pol pot did it, mao did it. this is history, my friend, no matter how vehemently you deny it.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Stalin and Hitler also instituted massive conscription of their citizenry into the military.

Of course none of this really addresses whether or not the US as an example of an armed populace is actually a "freer" society than the UK or France. Personally I don't think it is.

[justashooter 430]

Stalin and Hitler also instituted massive conscription of their citizenry into the military.

Of course none of this really addresses whether or not the US as an example of an armed populace is actually a "freer" society than the UK or France. Personally I don't think it is.

how many traffic cameras are there in England? how many cameras in public places are linked to facial recognition programs? how long till Mr Buttle is Mr Tuttle?

me, i'm just a duct repairman.

[Ban Hammer 14,283]

Kinda off topic...

I'm was an avid bow hunter before I left for college and still hunt in Albania and when back in Georgia. Myself, I never understood the charm of a gun. Too simple, yet too many parts. Some people still like hunting with rifles (my father for one) but I have never known a need or a use for an assault rifle in modern American society. What do people use them for? (If you are hunting deer with an AK-47, that's not "hunting")

i don't know of anyone who hunts deer with an automatic firearm......

ever fired automatic before? it's dayum difficult to control or hit anything with any hope of accuracy - it's more of a "spray and pray" measure or as suppressive fire, and the deer ain't shooting back, so the latter won't apply.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Stalin and Hitler also instituted massive conscription of their citizenry into the military.

Of course none of this really addresses whether or not the US as an example of an armed populace is actually a "freer" society than the UK or France. Personally I don't think it is.

how many traffic cameras are there in England? how many cameras in public places are linked to facial recognition programs? how long till Mr Buttle is Mr Tuttle?

me, i'm just a duct repairman.

And yet there you are... ready to blow someone's head off at a funfair over a misunderstanding.

[justashooter 430]

Kinda off topic...

I'm was an avid bow hunter before I left for college and still hunt in Albania and when back in Georgia. Myself, I never understood the charm of a gun. Too simple, yet too many parts. Some people still like hunting with rifles (my father for one) but I have never known a need or a use for an assault rifle in modern American society. What do people use them for? (If you are hunting deer with an AK-47, that's not "hunting")

i don't know of anyone who hunts deer with an automatic firearm......

ever fired automatic before? it's dayum difficult to control or hit anything with any hope of accuracy - it's more of a "spray and pray" measure or as suppressive fire, and the deer ain't shooting back, so the latter won't apply.

yes and no.

a real "AK47" is a select fire wep, but the vast majority of so called AK47 sold in America are semi-automatic only, just like the hundreds of thousands of remington 740/7400 sporting rifles that are used to take deer each year across America. the so called AK47 you see for sale at gun shows are just semi-automatic AK47 type rifles, not the real deal select fire vairant. lately prices on these semi-automatics have been $600-800 with an instant check option. a true select fire AK47 would be about $15,000 and 3-6 months wait on the ATF processing.

as for hitting a deer sized target with an automatic, sure, no problem. a 3 shot burst option is ideal, and from an AR15 platform all 3 shots can be held in a 12" circle at 100 meters quite easily. this, of course, requires aimed fire, not hip shooting.

as for the need for so called assault rifles (rifles that look like military types but don't operate in the same way), they are not necessarily intended for hunting. the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with hunting. it has to do with self protection and preservation of The State against enemies, foreign, and domestic.

[justashooter 430]

Stalin and Hitler also instituted massive conscription of their citizenry into the military.

Of course none of this really addresses whether or not the US as an example of an armed populace is actually a "freer" society than the UK or France. Personally I don't think it is.

how many traffic cameras are there in England? how many cameras in public places are linked to facial recognition programs? how long till Mr Buttle is Mr Tuttle?

me, i'm just a duct repairman.

And yet there you are... ready to blow someone's head off at a funfair over a misunderstanding.

if someone points a gun at a policeman they will be shot. if someone points a gun at an armed citizen, they can be shot with impunity. in pennsylvania it is specifically permitted by statute in Section 6100 of the UFC. guns are not toys to be pointed at other people, and those who think they are will have short lifespans.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It sounds like it makes for a generally tense society.

[justashooter 430]

It sounds like it makes for a generally tense society.

an armed society is a polite society.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So they say...

But again - there you are ready to blow someone's head off over a misunderstanding.

Responsiblity is great and all - but on this issue it seems is only as good as the restraint and common sense of the next guy.

[Ban Hammer 14,283]

a real "AK47" is a select fire wep, but the vast majority of so called AK47 sold in America are semi-automatic only, just like the hundreds of thousands of remington 740/7400 sporting rifles that are used to take deer each year across America. the so called AK47 you see for sale at gun shows are just semi-automatic AK47 type rifles, not the real deal select fire vairant. lately prices on these semi-automatics have been $600-800 with an instant check option. a true select fire AK47 would be about $15,000 and 3-6 months wait on the ATF processing.

i'm aware of all of that.

as for hitting a deer sized target with an automatic, sure, no problem. a 3 shot burst option is ideal, and from an AR15 platform all 3 shots can be held in a 12" circle at 100 meters quite easily. this, of course, requires aimed fire, not hip shooting.

good luck to anyone trying that - automatics are outlawed for hunting. plus the few times i tried to fire the 16a1 on full auto it was difficult to control. i suppose one could do as you described with lots of practice (and ammo).

It sounds like it makes for a generally tense society.

an armed society is a polite society.

pretty much.

[natty bumppo 297]

Kinda off topic...

I'm was an avid bow hunter before I left for college and still hunt in Albania and when back in Georgia. Myself, I never understood the charm of a gun. Too simple, yet too many parts. Some people still like hunting with rifles (my father for one) but I have never known a need or a use for an assault rifle in modern American society. What do people use them for? (If you are hunting deer with an AK-47, that's not "hunting")

i don't know of anyone who hunts deer with an automatic firearm......

ever fired automatic before? it's dayum difficult to control or hit anything with any hope of accuracy - it's more of a "spray and pray" measure or as suppressive fire, and the deer ain't shooting back, so the latter won't apply.

yes and no.

a real "AK47" is a select fire wep, but the vast majority of so called AK47 sold in America are semi-automatic only, just like the hundreds of thousands of remington 740/7400 sporting rifles that are used to take deer each year across America. the so called AK47 you see for sale at gun shows are just semi-automatic AK47 type rifles, not the real deal select fire vairant. lately prices on these semi-automatics have been $600-800 with an instant check option. a true select fire AK47 would be about $15,000 and 3-6 months wait on the ATF processing.

as for hitting a deer sized target with an automatic, sure, no problem. a 3 shot burst option is ideal, and from an AR15 platform all 3 shots can be held in a 12" circle at 100 meters quite easily. this, of course, requires aimed fire, not hip shooting.

as for the need for so called assault rifles (rifles that look like military types but don't operate in the same way), they are not necessarily intended for hunting. the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with hunting. it has to do with self protection and preservation of The State against enemies, foreign, and domestic.

The 7.62x39 can effectively be used for hunting game up to the size of whitetail deer. It is approximately as powerful as .30-30 Winchester round, and has a similar ballistic profile.

A few standard loads ...

123 gr Spitzer (2,300 ft/s) (1,480 ft·lbf)

154 gr Spitzer SP (2,104 ft/s) (1,519 ft·lbf)