Georgia/Russia Conflict

[Ilya R. 0]

The US was in Kosovo at the request of the UN, of which Russia is a part, at least the last time I checked.

Exactly. This is much different than a unilateral "peacekeeping" force. And although the early government of Georgia may have asked Russia to step in during the nineties, it has also been requesting that the "peacekeeping" end and Russian troops go home for some time.

It has indeed, but what about 80,000 people? And who requested the peacekeepers to Leave? Leaving would end up being genocide against Osetians. As it has already started in all over Georgia.

[Brad and Vika 129]

The US was in Kosovo at the request of the UN, of which Russia is a part, at least the last time I checked.

Exactly. This is much different than a unilateral "peacekeeping" force. And although the early government of Georgia may have asked Russia to step in during the nineties, it has also been requesting that the "peacekeeping" end and Russian troops go home for some time.

It has indeed, but what about 80,000 people? And who requested the peacekeepers to Leave? Leaving would end up being genocide against Osetians. As it has already started in all over Georgia.

Where is the proof of genocide? Seriously, put some proof out here. I promise that I won't laugh at the media (as long as I can read it). Is Russia perpetrating genocide in Chechnya? Of course not, just securing their country. Are Estonia and Latvia committing genocide against the Russians who live there? Of course not, so why assume that Georgians will do so. All I am saying is that IMO, every sovereign nation has the right to secure and control the territory within its borders. All of it. Unless and until that nation commits some act that warrants international intervention.

[1HappyGuy 45]

According to my wife, it is the Russians that put their own citizens in harms way by sending them to support the Ossetia separatist movement. With the new puppet president promising to protect Russian citizens from harm it makes one wonder when this position became important to the Russian government. Did they care about their citizens in Beslan (sp?) or at the Opera house in Moscow or how about all those sailors on that nuclear sub about 9 years ago (sorry, forgot the name of ship).

If the Russian government cared about it's citizens they would have acted differently in lots of passed situations. Now, it's just an excuse for Russian agression. Georgia was applying for admission to NATO which pissed off Putin. He's said things about Ukraine also when they talked about joining NATO. There are quite a number of former republics that are worried about Russian (you could insert Soviet) agression. To them NATO is an answer to their sovereignty and safety.

My brother in law just moved from Ekaterinaburg, Russia to Ukraine. He said that people in Russia openly discuss when they will take back Ukraine. It is not even a consideration in their minds that Ukraine is a separate country.

[Ilya R. 0]

The US was in Kosovo at the request of the UN, of which Russia is a part, at least the last time I checked.

Exactly. This is much different than a unilateral "peacekeeping" force. And although the early government of Georgia may have asked Russia to step in during the nineties, it has also been requesting that the "peacekeeping" end and Russian troops go home for some time.

It has indeed, but what about 80,000 people? And who requested the peacekeepers to Leave? Leaving would end up being genocide against Osetians. As it has already started in all over Georgia.

Where is the proof of genocide? Seriously, put some proof out here. I promise that I won't laugh at the media (as long as I can read it). Is Russia perpetrating genocide in Chechnya? Of course not, just securing their country. Are Estonia and Latvia committing genocide against the Russians who live there? Of course not, so why assume that Georgians will do so. All I am saying is that IMO, every sovereign nation has the right to secure and control the territory within its borders. All of it. Unless and until that nation commits some act that warrants international intervention.

Where is the proof? If you do your research you'll find proof. Read some of the reports from the '92 conflict. Read what Georgian's armies really target, you want proof you can find it. I never said Georgia was committing genocide against Russians, they are Osetians with Russian passports, so technically they are Russian. After the fallout of soviet union over 25 million Russians lived in outside republics, so Russia passed the law, that would allow any USSR citizen to become a Russian citizen. Anyway this guy Georgian's president is nuts, he is like clown, calling CNN and BBC every hour to complain how Russia attacked him, using European union flag in the background, for some odd... reason.. In last 24 hours over 40,000 people have crossed over in to Russia. 2000 civilians dead, how much do you need to be considered a genocide?

[Ilya R. 0]

According to my wife, it is the Russians that put their own citizens in harms way by sending them to support the Ossetia separatist movement. With the new puppet president promising to protect Russian citizens from harm it makes one wonder when this position became important to the Russian government. Did they care about their citizens in Beslan (sp?) or at the Opera house in Moscow or how about all those sailors on that nuclear sub about 9 years ago (sorry, forgot the name of ship).

If the Russian government cared about it's citizens they would have acted differently in lots of passed situations. Now, it's just an excuse for Russian agression. Georgia was applying for admission to NATO which pissed off Putin. He's said things about Ukraine also when they talked about joining NATO. There are quite a number of former republics that are worried about Russian (you could insert Soviet) agression. To them NATO is an answer to their sovereignty and safety.

My brother in law just moved from Ekaterinaburg, Russia to Ukraine. He said that people in Russia openly discuss when they will take back Ukraine. It is not even a consideration in their minds that Ukraine is a separate country.

People in Russia openly discuss taking back Ukraine? I have over 20 relatives in Russia which I visit regularly, and I have never heard this kind of Rubbish. The only flare up with Ukraine I can think of is Krim, which Russia gave to Ukraine during Yeltsin Presidency.

[Brad and Vika 129]

The US was in Kosovo at the request of the UN, of which Russia is a part, at least the last time I checked.

Exactly. This is much different than a unilateral "peacekeeping" force. And although the early government of Georgia may have asked Russia to step in during the nineties, it has also been requesting that the "peacekeeping" end and Russian troops go home for some time.

It has indeed, but what about 80,000 people? And who requested the peacekeepers to Leave? Leaving would end up being genocide against Osetians. As it has already started in all over Georgia.

Where is the proof of genocide? Seriously, put some proof out here. I promise that I won't laugh at the media (as long as I can read it). Is Russia perpetrating genocide in Chechnya? Of course not, just securing their country. Are Estonia and Latvia committing genocide against the Russians who live there? Of course not, so why assume that Georgians will do so. All I am saying is that IMO, every sovereign nation has the right to secure and control the territory within its borders. All of it. Unless and until that nation commits some act that warrants international intervention.

Where is the proof? If you do your research you'll find proof. Read some of the reports from the '92 conflict. Read what Georgian's armies really target, you want proof you can find it. I never said Georgia was committing genocide against Russians, they are Osetians with Russian passports, so technically they are Russian. After the fallout of soviet union over 25 million Russians lived in outside republics, so Russia passed the law, that would allow any USSR citizen to become a Russian citizen. Anyway this guy Georgian's president is nuts, he is like clown, calling CNN and BBC every hour to complain how Russia attacked him, using European union flag in the background, for some odd... reason.. In last 24 hours over 40,000 people have crossed over in to Russia. 2000 civilians dead, how much do you need to be considered a genocide?

I think you are contradicting yourself here (above), or having a language problem, or just confused.

Here is the definition of the term Genocide:

Crime of destroying or conspiring to destroy a group of people because of their ethnic, national, racial, or religious identity. Raphael Lemkin, a Polish legal scholar, coined the term in 1944 to describe Nazi Germany’s annihilation of groups by direct murder and indirect means during World War II (1939-1945).

Encarta Encyclopedia

You have thus far shown no evidence of this at all. In fact, you have put up no research or verified facts concerning genocide in Georgia at all. There seems to be a large number of conflict refugees in Georgia fleeing the battle - but no genocide as defined above. I respect your right to have an opinion - that seems to be Russia, right or wrong. Show some respect for others.

Edited August 10, 2008 by Brad and Vika

[Ilya R. 0]

The US was in Kosovo at the request of the UN, of which Russia is a part, at least the last time I checked.

Exactly. This is much different than a unilateral "peacekeeping" force. And although the early government of Georgia may have asked Russia to step in during the nineties, it has also been requesting that the "peacekeeping" end and Russian troops go home for some time.

It has indeed, but what about 80,000 people? And who requested the peacekeepers to Leave? Leaving would end up being genocide against Osetians. As it has already started in all over Georgia.

Where is the proof of genocide? Seriously, put some proof out here. I promise that I won't laugh at the media (as long as I can read it). Is Russia perpetrating genocide in Chechnya? Of course not, just securing their country. Are Estonia and Latvia committing genocide against the Russians who live there? Of course not, so why assume that Georgians will do so. All I am saying is that IMO, every sovereign nation has the right to secure and control the territory within its borders. All of it. Unless and until that nation commits some act that warrants international intervention.

Where is the proof? If you do your research you'll find proof. Read some of the reports from the '92 conflict. Read what Georgian's armies really target, you want proof you can find it. I never said Georgia was committing genocide against Russians, they are Osetians with Russian passports, so technically they are Russian. After the fallout of soviet union over 25 million Russians lived in outside republics, so Russia passed the law, that would allow any USSR citizen to become a Russian citizen. Anyway this guy Georgian's president is nuts, he is like clown, calling CNN and BBC every hour to complain how Russia attacked him, using European union flag in the background, for some odd... reason.. In last 24 hours over 40,000 people have crossed over in to Russia. 2000 civilians dead, how much do you need to be considered a genocide?

I think you are contradicting yourself here (above), or having a language problem, or just confused.

Here is the definition of the term Genocide:

Crime of destroying or conspiring to destroy a group of people because of their ethnic, national, racial, or religious identity. Raphael Lemkin, a Polish legal scholar, coined the term in 1944 to describe Nazi Germany’s annihilation of groups by direct murder and indirect means during World War II (1939-1945).

Encarta Encyclopedia

You have thus far shown no evidence of this at all. In fact, you have put up no research or verified facts concerning genocide in Georgia at all. There seems to be a large number of conflict refugees in Georgia fleeing the battle - but no genocide as defined above. I respect your right to have an opinion - that seems to be Russia, right or wrong. Show some respect for others.

And you have alot of facts. You base your opinions on what? news articles from Western media? I only have what I have heard from other sources than CNN. Osetins are certain kind of ethnicity that is different from Georgians, so I dont see how I am contradicting myself. I dont see either how I gave you no facts.

[Brad and Vika 129]

The US was in Kosovo at the request of the UN, of which Russia is a part, at least the last time I checked.

Exactly. This is much different than a unilateral "peacekeeping" force. And although the early government of Georgia may have asked Russia to step in during the nineties, it has also been requesting that the "peacekeeping" end and Russian troops go home for some time.

It has indeed, but what about 80,000 people? And who requested the peacekeepers to Leave? Leaving would end up being genocide against Osetians. As it has already started in all over Georgia.

Where is the proof of genocide? Seriously, put some proof out here. I promise that I won't laugh at the media (as long as I can read it). Is Russia perpetrating genocide in Chechnya? Of course not, just securing their country. Are Estonia and Latvia committing genocide against the Russians who live there? Of course not, so why assume that Georgians will do so. All I am saying is that IMO, every sovereign nation has the right to secure and control the territory within its borders. All of it. Unless and until that nation commits some act that warrants international intervention.

Where is the proof? If you do your research you'll find proof. Read some of the reports from the '92 conflict. Read what Georgian's armies really target, you want proof you can find it. I never said Georgia was committing genocide against Russians, they are Osetians with Russian passports, so technically they are Russian. After the fallout of soviet union over 25 million Russians lived in outside republics, so Russia passed the law, that would allow any USSR citizen to become a Russian citizen. Anyway this guy Georgian's president is nuts, he is like clown, calling CNN and BBC every hour to complain how Russia attacked him, using European union flag in the background, for some odd... reason.. In last 24 hours over 40,000 people have crossed over in to Russia. 2000 civilians dead, how much do you need to be considered a genocide?

I think you are contradicting yourself here (above), or having a language problem, or just confused.

Here is the definition of the term Genocide:

Crime of destroying or conspiring to destroy a group of people because of their ethnic, national, racial, or religious identity. Raphael Lemkin, a Polish legal scholar, coined the term in 1944 to describe Nazi Germany’s annihilation of groups by direct murder and indirect means during World War II (1939-1945).

Encarta Encyclopedia

You have thus far shown no evidence of this at all. In fact, you have put up no research or verified facts concerning genocide in Georgia at all. There seems to be a large number of conflict refugees in Georgia fleeing the battle - but no genocide as defined above. I respect your right to have an opinion - that seems to be Russia, right or wrong. Show some respect for others.

And you have alot of facts. You base your opinions on what? news articles from Western media? I only have what I have heard from other sources than CNN. Osetins are certain kind of ethnicity that is different from Georgians, so I dont see how I am contradicting myself. I dont see either how I gave you no facts.

Read the definition You said they Ossetians were 1)not Russian, 2) technically Russian, 3) fleeing into Russia (in other words NOT being exterminated, but fleeing).

[Bobalouie 0]

The US was in Kosovo at the request of the UN, of which Russia is a part, at least the last time I checked.

Exactly. This is much different than a unilateral "peacekeeping" force. And although the early government of Georgia may have asked Russia to step in during the nineties, it has also been requesting that the "peacekeeping" end and Russian troops go home for some time.

It has indeed, but what about 80,000 people? And who requested the peacekeepers to Leave? Leaving would end up being genocide against Osetians. As it has already started in all over Georgia.

Where is the proof of genocide? Seriously, put some proof out here. I promise that I won't laugh at the media (as long as I can read it). Is Russia perpetrating genocide in Chechnya? Of course not, just securing their country. Are Estonia and Latvia committing genocide against the Russians who live there? Of course not, so why assume that Georgians will do so. All I am saying is that IMO, every sovereign nation has the right to secure and control the territory within its borders. All of it. Unless and until that nation commits some act that warrants international intervention.

Where is the proof? If you do your research you'll find proof. Read some of the reports from the '92 conflict. Read what Georgian's armies really target, you want proof you can find it. I never said Georgia was committing genocide against Russians, they are Osetians with Russian passports, so technically they are Russian. After the fallout of soviet union over 25 million Russians lived in outside republics, so Russia passed the law, that would allow any USSR citizen to become a Russian citizen. Anyway this guy Georgian's president is nuts, he is like clown, calling CNN and BBC every hour to complain how Russia attacked him, using European union flag in the background, for some odd... reason.. In last 24 hours over 40,000 people have crossed over in to Russia. 2000 civilians dead, how much do you need to be considered a genocide?

gen·o·cide

–noun the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Since when did a civil war become genocide. People throw that word around too much, and it makes me wonder if people really know what it means. Genocide is what was perpatrated by the Germans against the Jews in WW2. Genocide is not when the allies attack the axis, or the South fights the North in the US civil war. You show me a single report after Aug 1st 2008 where Georgian forces lined up a bunch of S. Ossietians and shot them and buried them in a ditch. Thats Genocide. Engaging in a battle to secure your internationally recognized borders is not genocide.

[Brad and Vika 129]

The US was in Kosovo at the request of the UN, of which Russia is a part, at least the last time I checked.

Exactly. This is much different than a unilateral "peacekeeping" force. And although the early government of Georgia may have asked Russia to step in during the nineties, it has also been requesting that the "peacekeeping" end and Russian troops go home for some time.

It has indeed, but what about 80,000 people? And who requested the peacekeepers to Leave? Leaving would end up being genocide against Osetians. As it has already started in all over Georgia.

Where is the proof of genocide? Seriously, put some proof out here. I promise that I won't laugh at the media (as long as I can read it). Is Russia perpetrating genocide in Chechnya? Of course not, just securing their country. Are Estonia and Latvia committing genocide against the Russians who live there? Of course not, so why assume that Georgians will do so. All I am saying is that IMO, every sovereign nation has the right to secure and control the territory within its borders. All of it. Unless and until that nation commits some act that warrants international intervention.

Where is the proof? If you do your research you'll find proof. Read some of the reports from the '92 conflict. Read what Georgian's armies really target, you want proof you can find it. I never said Georgia was committing genocide against Russians, they are Osetians with Russian passports, so technically they are Russian. After the fallout of soviet union over 25 million Russians lived in outside republics, so Russia passed the law, that would allow any USSR citizen to become a Russian citizen. Anyway this guy Georgian's president is nuts, he is like clown, calling CNN and BBC every hour to complain how Russia attacked him, using European union flag in the background, for some odd... reason.. In last 24 hours over 40,000 people have crossed over in to Russia. 2000 civilians dead, how much do you need to be considered a genocide?

gen·o·cide

–noun the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Since when did a civil war become genocide. People throw that word around too much, and it makes me wonder if people really know what it means. Genocide is what was perpatrated by the Germans against the Jews in WW2. Genocide is not when the allies attack the axis, or the South fights the North in the US civil war. You show me a single report after Aug 1st 2008 where Georgian forces lined up a bunch of S. Ossietians and shot them and buried them in a ditch. Thats Genocide. Engaging in a battle to secure your internationally recognized borders is not genocide.

Damn straight Bob. Where have you been? You're missing out on all the fun around here.

[mendeleev 69]

One of the reasons the Kosovo intervention happened and Serbia ended up losing Kosovo was because Serbs were the first nationality since the Germans to engage in genocide in Europe. Serbs did so first in Croatia and then in Bosnia. When it appeared it was going to happen a third time in Kosovo, Europe said enough, demanded and secured NATO invention there.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no credible claims that the Georgians have engaged in genocide for a first time, let alone a second time.

The international community was quite restrained before acting against Serbia. One cannot say the same concerning the current Russian invasion of Georgia.

[Ilya R. 0]

The US was in Kosovo at the request of the UN, of which Russia is a part, at least the last time I checked.

Exactly. This is much different than a unilateral "peacekeeping" force. And although the early government of Georgia may have asked Russia to step in during the nineties, it has also been requesting that the "peacekeeping" end and Russian troops go home for some time.

It has indeed, but what about 80,000 people? And who requested the peacekeepers to Leave? Leaving would end up being genocide against Osetians. As it has already started in all over Georgia.

Where is the proof of genocide? Seriously, put some proof out here. I promise that I won't laugh at the media (as long as I can read it). Is Russia perpetrating genocide in Chechnya? Of course not, just securing their country. Are Estonia and Latvia committing genocide against the Russians who live there? Of course not, so why assume that Georgians will do so. All I am saying is that IMO, every sovereign nation has the right to secure and control the territory within its borders. All of it. Unless and until that nation commits some act that warrants international intervention.

Where is the proof? If you do your research you'll find proof. Read some of the reports from the '92 conflict. Read what Georgian's armies really target, you want proof you can find it. I never said Georgia was committing genocide against Russians, they are Osetians with Russian passports, so technically they are Russian. After the fallout of soviet union over 25 million Russians lived in outside republics, so Russia passed the law, that would allow any USSR citizen to become a Russian citizen. Anyway this guy Georgian's president is nuts, he is like clown, calling CNN and BBC every hour to complain how Russia attacked him, using European union flag in the background, for some odd... reason.. In last 24 hours over 40,000 people have crossed over in to Russia. 2000 civilians dead, how much do you need to be considered a genocide?

gen·o·cide

–noun the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Since when did a civil war become genocide. People throw that word around too much, and it makes me wonder if people really know what it means. Genocide is what was perpatrated by the Germans against the Jews in WW2. Genocide is not when the allies attack the axis, or the South fights the North in the US civil war. You show me a single report after Aug 1st 2008 where Georgian forces lined up a bunch of S. Ossietians and shot them and buried them in a ditch. Thats Genocide. Engaging in a battle to secure your internationally recognized borders is not genocide.

Actually there were alot of reports of Georgian troops shooting unarmed men and women, in villages on the border of S. Osetia. Few villages were actually leveled, completely destroyed. That all happened in 90's, if you read some of civilian reports of what Georgia has been up to in last 12 years you might understand. Its much easy for you to debate what is genocide and what is not, sitting at home by your nice laptop or desktop setup, while thousands of people die, and you get to make a decision on wherever that counts as genocide or not. You get the dictionary out and compare the meaning of the word, it all seems so simple. Its not point arguing with people with already a set mind on things, so you stick to your opinions, and I'll stick to the truth.

[Neonred 3,950]

I've never payed much attention to this problem area but the way my wife explains it to me is exactly the same as what Ilya is saying.

[Blues Fairy 0]

I cannot say if it was genocide or not, but killing 1400 people in a surprise attack, just after the announcement of a truce, is definitely not a civilized thing to do. Killing hundreds of civilians is even less so. Mind that the total population of S. Ossettia is 80,000 (was before the Georgian attack). Most of them are Russian citizens.

[Brad and Vika 129]

I cannot say if it was genocide or not, but killing 1400 people in a surprise attack, just after the announcement of a truce, is definitely not a civilized thing to do. Killing hundreds of civilians is even less so. Mind that the total population of S. Ossettia is 80,000 (was before the Georgian attack). Most of them are Russian citizens.

It looks to me as though both sides have killed some civilians, and that is definitely a bad thing. My position through this entire debate is only that any country has the right to police its own territory. No country has the right to occupy its neighbors, or annex their territory. I am American, and my country is the worst offender in the world in this sense. We interfere with the sovereign rights of other countries all the time, and it is wrong IMO, no matter who is doing it. I think because some of the posters on this forum are Russian, or married to Russians, the position is, that the invasion or occupation of the country next door is wrong unless Russia is doing it. I respect the loyalty to Motherland, and the personal opinions of others, but take offense at being called patently wrong or lacking research because I disagree. After hours of that, I tend to respond in kind. Honestly both sides in this conflict are behaving badly.