Senator Obama on Fox News Sunday (April 27 2008)

[no name 1]

"Evidence" that is obviously not well used to support a claim vs First Hand evidence from people involved in the industry. Somehow, I'd rather go with the logical ####### vs imagined #######.

Yes logical by 'your' standards.

Yes. Standards that have the backing of the FL State Department of Education.

And there's 49 other ones out there, only one of which has been discussed here.

[HAL 9000 96]

"Evidence" that is obviously not well used to support a claim vs First Hand evidence from people involved in the industry. Somehow, I'd rather go with the logical ####### vs imagined #######.

Yes logical by 'your' standards.

Yes. Standards that have the backing of the FL State Department of Education.

And there's 49 other ones out there, only one of which has been discussed here.

Virginia, New York (City), et al. Those plus FL make 47 other cases not discussed, and I am sure there are other states out there that have temporary teaching certificates available for those seeking to become professional teachers. Point being that some folks are insisting on ignoring the complete shortfall of an educational system based on the symptoms (as usual) instead of looking into the root causes of the problems themselves.

As for BY's insistence that curricular standards somehow make less sense in assessing value statements to current and future teaching workforces than by looking at it like a corporate dimension, well, it does show a complete disregard for the process altogether now.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

US teachers have it better than their counterparts in Saudi Arabia

Roads in Saudi Arabia are among the world's most dangerous but one type of victim stands out: female teachers who are dying at alarming rates because of long commutes through the desert to reach remote schools.

The Saudi government appoints teachers to work in villages where local staff cannot fill all vacancies. But unlike their male counterparts, female teachers in this conservative Muslim country have difficulty living alone in the villages, forcing them to commute each day.

Nof al-Oneizi was so worried she would die that she wrote to education officials urging them to find her a school nearer to her home in the northern town of Jouf, rather than the one she was assigned to 108 miles away—a three-hour drive because of the bad roads. Since women are forbidden to drive, she carpooled in a van with a driver along with several other female teachers.

...

The 28-year-old English language teacher died in a horrific crash last November. Five other female teachers, their driver and four people in the car they hit also were killed.

...

A study released in October by the King Abdulaziz City for Science and Technology, a Riyadh-based government research institute, found that female teachers commuting to their jobs have about a 50 percent greater chance of getting into car accidents than average Saudis.

...

In 2005, four women made headlines when they decided to put an end to their hazardous commute: They married their driver and settled in a village near their school. Islam allows a man to take up to four wives at the same time.

[HAL 9000 96]

[GabiandVi 34]

What Kaydee does not understand about "conditional" hiring of teachers is that those teachers cannot continue working unless they show proof of defined steps toward certification, and they only have a limited amount of time to achieve all requirements for certification. Those requirements include passing an exam, usually the PRAXIS. Check it out. The Core Battery tests are relatively easy, though I don't think any non-Education major could pass the Professional Knowledge portion, but the subject specific exams are more rigorous. MANY fresh graduates from teaching courses have failed the PRAXIS and cannot be hired. I don't know what Kaydee does for a living. Maybe s/he has to pass a bar as well, maybe not.

After certification, teachers must show proof of continued training in their field in order to maintain it. Often times, this training must be paid for out of our own pockets.

I had choices. I knew the pay for teachers was not on par with the training required. It is the lowest paid professional job, though nurses don't get paid much better. I could have chosen a profession that paid higher. I knew what I was getting into (or I did to a certain extent - no one really knows how stressful teaching is until they actually teach.) Does this mean that I think the salaries should stay as low as they are? NO! Does this mean I made a bad choice? If that is a given, then we are dooming ourselves and we deserve the results. Does it mean if I want to make 100K I should change careers? Unfortunately, yes. Is this the way it should be? Is this a reasonable reply? Is this a fair attitude? I won't answer that because I could be called biased.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Does this mean that I think the salaries should stay as low as they are? NO! Does this mean I made a bad choice? If that is a given, then we are dooming ourselves and we deserve the results. Does it mean if I want to make 100K I should change careers? Unfortunately, yes. Is this the way it should be? Is this a reasonable reply? Is this a fair attitude? I won't answer that because I could be called biased.

My wife is a teacher and I hear you. Here's the thing. People like you and her become teachers because you want to teach. You made a career choice that wasn't driven by the promise of monetary reward. Here's the other thing. There's lots of people out there like you and her. Teacher salaries will stay low as long as there are so many people - like you and her - who make career decisions based on considerations other than monetary reward. Supply and demand, right?

I'm not going to get into whether it's right or wrong. It is what it is. Police jobs are similar in this respect. They're just as 'critical' to the normal functioning of a society, yet they don't get paid much. Except in places like NYC, where it's relatively more hazardous - so they need to increase pay just enough to attract the right number of candidates. Come to think of it, that's true for teachers in school districts like Newark, too.

Edited April 29, 2008 by VJ Troll

[rebeccajo 14]

I don't think you're biased at all. You're using facts rather than rhetoric, plus experience.

A lot of folks are unaware of the continuing ed that teachers are required to participate in. In fact, I don't think it'd be off the mark by a lot to say many people are as ignorant of what goes on in the school system as they are immigration. It's not for no good reason you read advertisements asking parents to name three super models/three of their childrens teachers.

The public school system is a babysitting service for many of todays families - a phenomenon often attributed to lower working class families. As we can see from Kaydee's writings and his statements about his earnings, the disrespect of the profession goes far beyond the disdained 'working poor'.

[rebeccajo 14]

Does this mean that I think the salaries should stay as low as they are? NO! Does this mean I made a bad choice? If that is a given, then we are dooming ourselves and we deserve the results. Does it mean if I want to make 100K I should change careers? Unfortunately, yes. Is this the way it should be? Is this a reasonable reply? Is this a fair attitude? I won't answer that because I could be called biased.

My wife is a teacher and I hear you. Here's the thing. People like you and her become teachers because you want to teach. You made a career choice that wasn't driven by the promise of monetary reward. Here's the other thing. There's lots of people out there like you and her. Teacher salaries will stay low as long as there are so many people - like you and her - who make career decisions based on considerations other than monetary reward. Supply and demand, right?

I'm not going to get into whether it's right or wrong. It is what it is. Police jobs are similar in this respect. They're just as 'critical' to the normal functioning of a society, yet they don't get paid much. Except in places like NYC, where it's relatively more hazardous - so they need to increase pay just enough to attract the right number of candidates. Come to think of it, that's true for teachers in school districts like Newark, too.

AJ, you're talking about a societal infrastructure concept that we talked about once in another thread, but it was laughed off. In all fairness, maybe it got dissed because we were talking about 'shoe salesmen' and construction workers.

There has to be people who will build roads, fix pipes, do wiring, put out fires, enforce the law, dig ditches, wipe the noses of the ill and dying, and teach. These are 'infrastructure' jobs and without them there's no net beneath the IT people, the executives, the bankers and lawyers, or even the guys with the good manufacturing jobs.

If we teach our children their value in society is largely going to be determined by the amount on their W-2, pretty soon our society is going to be in trouble.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Does this mean that I think the salaries should stay as low as they are? NO! Does this mean I made a bad choice? If that is a given, then we are dooming ourselves and we deserve the results. Does it mean if I want to make 100K I should change careers? Unfortunately, yes. Is this the way it should be? Is this a reasonable reply? Is this a fair attitude? I won't answer that because I could be called biased.

My wife is a teacher and I hear you. Here's the thing. People like you and her become teachers because you want to teach. You made a career choice that wasn't driven by the promise of monetary reward. Here's the other thing. There's lots of people out there like you and her. Teacher salaries will stay low as long as there are so many people - like you and her - who make career decisions based on considerations other than monetary reward. Supply and demand, right?

I'm not going to get into whether it's right or wrong. It is what it is. Police jobs are similar in this respect. They're just as 'critical' to the normal functioning of a society, yet they don't get paid much. Except in places like NYC, where it's relatively more hazardous - so they need to increase pay just enough to attract the right number of candidates. Come to think of it, that's true for teachers in school districts like Newark, too.

AJ, you're talking about a societal infrastructure concept that we talked about once in another thread, but it was laughed off. In all fairness, maybe it got dissed because we were talking about 'shoe salesmen' and construction workers.

There has to be people who will build roads, fix pipes, do wiring, put out fires, enforce the law, dig ditches, wipe the noses of the ill and dying, and teach. These are 'infrastructure' jobs and without them there's no net beneath the IT people, the executives, the bankers and lawyers, or even the guys with the good manufacturing jobs.

If we teach our children their value in society is largely going to be determined by the amount on their W-2, pretty soon our society is going to be in trouble.

I'm not disagreeing with you.

I'm saying that there are enough people willing to teach, despite the low salaries, for the love of teaching. This keeps salaries down.

[Jenn! 918]

I left teaching because the pay was far too low for the amount of stress involved in the job. With some experience in teaching H.S. math, but no teaching credentials, I was hired. They mentioned that I would have to pass some state tests eventually, but they didn't seem too concerned.

I think teaching is one of the most noble professions that one can choose. Unfortunately, I also have to agree that in many places, the standards for acquiring a teaching position are not as high as they should be. If the standards were where they should be, then I think we'd see the pool of applicants decrease and salaries increase to a more acceptable level.

This whole conversation is reminding me of my poll about whether you think you're better than people who earn less money than you.

[rebeccajo 14]

I'm saying that there are enough people willing to teach, despite the low salaries, for the love of teaching. This keeps salaries down.

I don't think that's all that is involved. A lot of it has to do with what taxpayers are willing to pay for it.

I hear a lot of people I fraternize with (as my social circle ages) make comments about resenting their tax dollars going for school levies, etc. It's kind of weird as they had children (grown now) who went through the public system.

People have really short memories, I guess. Sort of explains lots of things, like Iraq (can you spell Vietnam?) and buying big-####### SUV's when you can remember gas shortages in the 70's.

Edited April 29, 2008 by rebeccajo

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I'm saying that there are enough people willing to teach, despite the low salaries, for the love of teaching. This keeps salaries down.

I don't think that's all that is involved. A lot of it has to do with what taxpayers are willing to pay for it.

Ok, so if salaries weren't high enough to attract a sufficient number of candidates, then why is it that teaching jobs don't stay unfilled for week after week and month after month? The truth is, at current salaries, schools have no problem at all finding candidates who meet all the requirements. At least not here in this state.

[rebeccajo 14]

I'm saying that there are enough people willing to teach, despite the low salaries, for the love of teaching. This keeps salaries down.

I don't think that's all that is involved. A lot of it has to do with what taxpayers are willing to pay for it.

Ok, so if salaries weren't high enough to attract a sufficient number of candidates, then why is it that teaching jobs don't stay unfilled for week after week and month after month? The truth is, at current salaries, schools have no problem at all finding candidates who meet all the requirements. At least not here in this state.

There must be 'shortages' in other parts of the country, or you wouldn't read of the programs to allow teachers into the system while they actually earn their credentials in university.

I think the example we were given earlier was the State of Virginia............

I left teaching because the pay was far too low for the amount of stress involved in the job. With some experience in teaching H.S. math, but no teaching credentials, I was hired. They mentioned that I would have to pass some state tests eventually, but they didn't seem too concerned.

I think teaching is one of the most noble professions that one can choose. Unfortunately, I also have to agree that in many places, the standards for acquiring a teaching position are not as high as they should be. If the standards were where they should be, then I think we'd see the pool of applicants decrease and salaries increase to a more acceptable level.

This whole conversation is reminding me of my poll about whether you think you're better than people who earn less money than you.

Jenn -

I didn't know you used to teach.

I'm sorry to read you felt you had to leave the profession.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

There must be 'shortages' in other parts of the country, or you wouldn't read of the programs to allow teachers into the system while they actually earn their credentials in university.

I still remember the first seminar my wife went to, I joined her to that, out of curiosity. The seminar was for people who already graduated college and wanted to become teachers. The "alternate route", is what they call it.

It was hosted by a state-run university, the speakers were from the Board of Ed.

There was a lot of talk about the shortage of teachers in the state. About the retiring boomers and all the vacancies that exist, blah blah blah.

Anyway - my wife started the process to get certified as a special ed teacher. She started looking for work, not one public school even responded. Only one private school did... and that is where she works now. The pay is less than she made doing data entry. She beat two other candidates for the job, because they wanted too much money

She has colleagues right now, with over 5 years of experience working with emotionally disturbed and learning disabled children, who are looking for a public school gig and can't even get interviews.

In the meanwhile, the state board of ed continues to tout the shortage of teachers. They're a bunch of liars. Just like the IT industry is when they talk about a shortage. There is no shortage!!!

[rebeccajo 14]

You may be right. You've got more personal experience with this than I.